(WWJD @ May 17 2007,07:06) No hedging. I'm just asking DO ANY OF YOU PERSONALLY KNOW ANY CHRISTIAN THAT HAS KILLED ANYONE FOR GOD? I ask because if no one does, we can finally drop the whole crusades crap and move on. As a corollary, does anyone know ANYONE PERSONALLY LIVING TODAY that has started a major war in God's name? No? Okay, so CHRISTIANS do NOT KILL PEOPLE, Christians do NOT start wars. Enough a bout that.
That sad excuse for avoiding God is the WEAKEST excuse I've ever heard... "but the crusades.... whaaa whaaaa" the Crusades were done by MEN, not God, for the wrong reasons -- much like ANY WAR. And it is in the PAST - which NONE OF US CAN CHANGE - so let it go, like an old girlfriend.... "Well I can't get into a new relationship, I had this girlfriend once in my past that didn't go so well...." hahhahahahaha well if ya wanna stay in that cell... enjoy! - Wag, none of this is directed at YOU, just generally speaking.
aw, jeez, now look.... ya made me join the thread, dang it!
Ha!!! I knew I could drag you into this!
After the last time I blew up inappropriately, I finally realized that it isn't worth getting angry about religious discussions. No worries, you haven't offended me and even if you did, I suppose it really wouldn't have mattered in the overall scheme of things. After all, in 100 years, who's going to remember? Or care? Oh, right. I know what you're going to say! heheheh.
Okay, the fact is, I don't know anyone personally who was a Christian who killed someone. Not even a nutball. But then again, I don't make a habit of trying to know such people. And yet, the jails are full of just those kinds of people, as we all well know. There are even a few who claimed to have acted in the name of god. David Koresh comes to mind. The Japanese subway sarin gas poisoners.
The point I'm making is not whether or not the people are evil or not, we all know what man is capable of doing. Where I have a mystery about it is that there are good and evil people in ALL segments of the population, religious or otherwise. The key point is, did religion have anything to do with people being good or did it have anything to do with them being evil?
While we can't change the past, we can learn from it. Religion has, in the past, been other than humane. Other than good. Religion of every flavor has been the purveyor of many evil things. The Bible even revels in it, from Genesis to Revelations. The Quran likewise. History condemns other religions over and over and over again.
Does it matter that I don't know murderer who was Christian? It certainly doesn't prove anything because I don't personally know everyone on the planet! What I do know, however, is the vast number of religious people who have been evil alongside the many religious people who have been good. There are also many non-religious people who are evil alongside the many non-religious people who are just as good as the most stalwart religious people.
Bottom line is, just as you can safely say that religion didn't make anyone evil, I can just as safely say that religion didn't make anyone good, either.
Take myself, for example. I was a pretty decent guy but until I kicked my religion to the curb, I wasn't nearly as good a human being as I am now. It's a simple fact. I also know many others who have had similar experience with religion.
I almost agree with you that the Crusades, the Inquisition and 9/11 are not adequate excuses for abandoning all interest in religion but one thing remains, coming straight from the Bible: A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit and yet, it once did exactly that. Has the tree changed? Has the apple barrel been adequately cleaned? If so, who cleaned it?
(BigDawg_03Busa @ May 17 2007,07:06)
To everyone: Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship, cut past all the denominations (none of which are biblical anyway) and pattern every Christian's life after Jesus. Now we should always act in love and compassion towards all man, but we often fall short (myself included). So because you see a man or woman of God fall short (whether they curse someone out or commit adultery) it doesn't mean they can't get back on track with God for He is faithful and just to forgive us of all sins if we confess and repent. So when we focus on people, we're already wrong because people fall short EVERYDAY, Myself included!!! Everyone will stand judgement for THEIR own life, not the preacher, pastor, bishop, deacon, choir director, pope, or priest.
My thing is this, because it is a relationship and I know what I have personally experienced in my life, NOONE can tell me anything different about the God I serve. That being said, until we experience Him we're always questioning and doubting or rejecting. God knows our hearts and is a rewarder of those who "diligently" seek Him. So if we're in it for the thrills or to get access or stuff (like many of today's "professing christians") we're out of order.
Finally I say to all non believers:
If I'm am wrong.....I lose NOTHING.
If you're wrong......you lose EVERYTHING.
..snip..
The whole relationship thing is troublesome. Ya can't have a relationship with someone you can't see. I might be able to concede that you could have a relationship with someone you could talk to but even then, people are rarely able to have successful long-distance relationships. Very sad, actually. Still, how do you hear god? In your mind? That alone subjects it to a questionable status. The point is, people aren't hearing with their ears or seeing with their eyes and yes, I know the claim of the Bible that you can't do it that way. Still, that's the perfect escape.
The truth is, people believe what they want to believe, not what's true.
By the way, the last reason for believing in god is Pascal's Wager. If you're going to believe because it's true or right, go for it. Believe what you wish but if you're just gambling on a "sure" thing by believing and just doing it to save your butt at the end, then I doubt that your faith is truly justified. As for me, I truly feel that by eliminating a religion from my life, I gained my life back. It's simply better now in so many ways and so immensely more fulfilling without the burdens of a belief in a hateful, prejudicial god.
(tdrcomm @ May 17 2007,07:06) The "God told me to nuke you" argument is weak. All wars are started and ended by Greed, Land, Power & Wealth. Last time I checked the Scriptures that's not a tenet of my faith. All man-made. And even when it's wrapped around some twisted interpretation it's transparent.
A Christian's life is proven through his/her "actions" not "action". Just as a person shouldn't be judged by one "error in judgment" he/she shouldn't be glorified by one individual thing. Works in progress. We all fail, we will all fail. We have the capacity to either keep going the same way or get up and keep stepping. (We say the same thing about riding, don't we: It's not IF I go down, it's WHEN.)
All the "good things" that we do, how we carry ourselves and what believe should all point to not what we do but why we do it and who we do it for. I admit a lot of "psudo-christians" play the game but true Christians understand that everything they do must point back to Christ. Knowing that pretty much sobers our actions and words. We may lose focus and drift into sin but He's faithful to forgive and we keep on the journey.
But the Bible is full of references to wars started at the direction of God. The Quran is rife with reference to "Holy War." Whatever religious teaching you adhere to supports such violence. Yes, I agree it is man-made but it is also, allegedly, supported by god.
I was also of the understanding that works were not the critical factor for Christians. I'm confused by your reliance on works as a way of glorifying god 'cause I doubt he needs the works of anyone!
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Overall, I believe wholeheartedly that if people are good, it is because they want to be good. If they are evil, it is because they want to be evil. God or religion doesn't make people good and satan doesn't make people evil. More importantly, churches and religions have yet to show that they are able to make people be other than what they are. At best, religions are a catalyst for people to act, either for good or evil.
--Wag--
) I believe in Sesame Street...and I am Big Bird reincarnated 
