The Lucy turbo build, and testing

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

Alright fellas, back from the first actual vacation I’ve taken in about 10 years. Sorry to everyone that’s messaged me, or tagged me in posts.

With everything else going on at the shop I haven’t had time to get Lucy ready for the track. Been spending what little few free minutes I have to work on tightening up the ole girl. I’ve been riding a bunch for 2017 and newer bikes that feel crisp and responsive. When I get on Lucy she just feels sloppy and not so connected to the road. I’m sure @c10 could agree after going out and beating up on her a bit. Mostly suspension adjustments along with new brake lines, fluid, and I’ll be repacking the steering stabilizer.

While fitting the bodywork something occurred to me. There appeared to be enough room to snake the charge pipe in front of the radiator but still stay inside the bodywork. So I rummaged through the scrap pile and had just enough tube to give it a try. I’ve never seen anyone run the charge pipe this way, but man, does it further aid to hiding the fact it’s turbocharged even more. Some semi gloss or flat powdercoat and I think the pipe will pretty much disappear. My goal has been to get the bike to a point where anyone could walk by it and not even give it a second glance at the local race spot. This should do the trick.

Another cool thing about this set up is there’s absolutely no trimming required to get the bodywork to fit. I’m also curious to see if there’s a change in intake temps since the tube isn’t getting blasted with hot air off the radiator. It may cool better too as there’s no tube blocking the opening in the fairing.

 

[c10]

Lucy is a cool bike .

 

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

Lucy is a cool bike .

If by cool you mean a disaster then yep!

Forgot to mention my data logger and wideband gauge must have experienced a weird voltage spike, and crapped the bed on me good thing is they’re still under warranty so hopefully they can be repaired.

I was going to hold off on rewiring everything so it looks nice until after I send the frame out for Powdercoating. But looks like it’s going to happen sooner.

Instead of my usual power block rewire job I’m going to try a Rowe electronics PDM60.

 

[fallenarch]

If by cool you mean a disaster then yep!

Forgot to mention my data logger and wideband gauge must have experienced a weird voltage spike, and crapped the bed on me good thing is they’re still under warranty so hopefully they can be repaired.

I was going to hold off on rewiring everything so it looks nice until after I send the frame out for Powdercoating. But looks like it’s going to happen sooner.

Instead of my usual power block rewire job I’m going to try a Rowe electronics PDM60.

Use the Amplink instead of the PDM60. I like it much more.

 

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

Use the Amplink instead of the PDM60. I like it much more.

What’s the difference?

 

[fallenarch]

Amplink is a next generation of the PDM60. You can monitor/control it with your cell phone. Also has a few more features. Cost a little more, also from Rowe Elec. Cool thing is if something is wrong you can just pull out the cell and shut it off until you fix it. Or if you want to add something you can just plug it in and send power to it either switched or straight.

 

[04LE]

I believe this needs a bump and update based on that teaser image from the other thread....

 

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

Here you go fellas!

 

[Hayabusa Wannabe]

If by cool you mean a disaster then yep!

Forgot to mention my data logger and wideband gauge must have experienced a weird voltage spike, and crapped the bed on me good thing is they’re still under warranty so hopefully they can be repaired.

Do dyno systems account for the massive static build up of the tire? I am thinking of connecting a ground wire to the hub/swingarm. Recall those ground straps some cars required due to the "new" high-mileage tires at the time? In that vein the best solution would be to have a flexible wire that rubs the tire. That would dissipate energy before it could hit the frame and affect the electronic systems.

 

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

As promised, like I said from the start with Lucy, I’ll push her to the point of failure so we can learn from it. After today, I’ve learned a lot. And it only cost me a head gasket which I may partially be responsible for as mentioned in the video. As you guys have seen, Lucy is pretty beat up and wore out from the previous owner. I feel like a properly maintained engine may not have had a head gasket fail.

I put nearly 1k miles on the bike since the 330hp video. I checked the data logs, and spark plugs frequently, as well as a few compression tests over that time period. The engine seemed to be holding up to the power just fine. Since I’ve had pistons and rods on the shelf for Lucy I was kinda looking for a reason to pull the engine anyways.

Pushing the stock engine this hard, I figured the head gasket would likely be the weak link mostly because of the high compression, weak head bolts and a crappy head gasket all around. So managing how much torque the engine made was key as peak torque is when cylinder pressures are at their highest. And torque in general is what bends connecting rods.

Ive built many turbo base spacer engines. Typically at 350hp they’ll made just over 200tq and live forever. So Figured if I kept the torque somewhere around 200-210 the rods might stay inside the engine.

Usually stock cam/compression gen 2s make peak torque around 8k rpm. If you notice Lucy made peak HP at 10,500rpm which is where I was ending the runs, but it made peak torque at 10,300. Manipulating the ignition table is how you control where, and how much torque an engine makes. Generally compressed belly button lint cast rods don’t like a torque curve that looks like a mountain. They tend to stay together if it’s a little hill. At least this methodology holds true tuning stock bottom end LS engines. Instead of hitting the rods really hard over a couple rpm, you want to slowly load them.

Speaking of high rpm, how about those weak valve springs that blow open after 8psi? Oh wait... they didn’t. Again, this run from the video was shut down at 10,500 rpm... and it just so happen to make peak HP at 10,500rpm. If the valves were floating or being blown open you would see power dropping off up top. I made a handful of pulls to 11,200rpm and still no sign of valve float.

This test also showed how good of a fuel VP X98 is. Lots of compression, with a fair amount of boost generates a lot more heat then a low compression engine. The factory top rings are thin, and have very tight gaps. X98 did an excellent job of keeping the combustion temps in check. It also did an excellent job at making the injectors work hard. I was at 80% duty cycle on that pull.

So at this point, Lucy was averaging about 16.5hp per pound of boost. It got me thinking if I could just make a pull at 18-19psi I’m sure it would easily of gone over 500hp... but I figured I should quit while I’m ahead.

So overall I’m really impressed at how things turned out. This kinda kicks the door open to new potential upgrade paths that are a bit cheaper. I think we could safely raise the HP restrictions a few more HP and know a combination will still be reliable if used within its intended limits.

This also makes me cook up some awesome engine combos.

what are your guys thoughts on all of this?

 

[Bumblebee]

I am normally not a big turbo fan but this is very interesting to observe.

Now you just have to go to Suzuki and tell them how to do a turbo set up correctly and maybe a street dominating Gen 3 MIGHT be a reality.

 

[Mr Brown]

First, thank you for showing us not just what happened but how you got there. To me, that's the interesting part.
I'm interested also in repeatability across bikes. Do you think that the 200 tq figure is what a stock gen 2 will hold as a rule, or do you think Lucy is a "ringer"? I'm also curious about the origin of the "rods good to 300 hp" and "valve springs good to 8 psi" conventional wisdom as well. You've shown that they can be surpassed, but is that repeatable?
Regardless, you're doing big thangs!

 

[04LE]

I dont think I could have received a better response. First a video then responding in a way that those not in the know can understand what you are talking about.

 

[busakiller]

Awesome write up Rob. It would be interesting to know how long that motor would last with no head gasket issue at that power level. Pretty cool to see how awesome that Vp 98 fuel is. Does the bike have meth injection or is this just fuel alone? What’s your plans next for Lucy?

 

[ZeePopo]

As promised, like I said from the start with Lucy, I’ll push her to the point of failure so we can learn from it. After today, I’ve learned a lot. And it only cost me a head gasket which I may partially be responsible for as mentioned in the video. As you guys have seen, Lucy is pretty beat up and wore out from the previous owner. I feel like a properly maintained engine may not have had a head gasket fail.

I put nearly 1k miles on the bike since the 330hp video. I checked the data logs, and spark plugs frequently, as well as a few compression tests over that time period. The engine seemed to be holding up to the power just fine. Since I’ve had pistons and rods on the shelf for Lucy I was kinda looking for a reason to pull the engine anyways.

Pushing the stock engine this hard, I figured the head gasket would likely be the weak link mostly because of the high compression, weak head bolts and a crappy head gasket all around. So managing how much torque the engine made was key as peak torque is when cylinder pressures are at their highest. And torque in general is what bends connecting rods.

Ive built many turbo base spacer engines. Typically at 350hp they’ll made just over 200tq and live forever. So Figured if I kept the torque somewhere around 200-210 the rods might stay inside the engine.

Usually stock cam/compression gen 2s make peak torque around 8k rpm. If you notice Lucy made peak HP at 10,500rpm which is where I was ending the runs, but it made peak torque at 10,300. Manipulating the ignition table is how you control where, and how much torque an engine makes. Generally compressed belly button lint cast rods don’t like a torque curve that looks like a mountain. They tend to stay together if it’s a little hill. At least this methodology holds true tuning stock bottom end LS engines. Instead of hitting the rods really hard over a couple rpm, you want to slowly load them.

Speaking of high rpm, how about those weak valve springs that blow open after 8psi? Oh wait... they didn’t. Again, this run from the video was shut down at 10,500 rpm... and it just so happen to make peak HP at 10,500rpm. If the valves were floating or being blown open you would see power dropping off up top. I made a handful of pulls to 11,200rpm and still no sign of valve float.

This test also showed how good of a fuel VP X98 is. Lots of compression, with a fair amount of boost generates a lot more heat then a low compression engine. The factory top rings are thin, and have very tight gaps. X98 did an excellent job of keeping the combustion temps in check. It also did an excellent job at making the injectors work hard. I was at 80% duty cycle on that pull.

So at this point, Lucy was averaging about 16.5hp per pound of boost. It got me thinking if I could just make a pull at 18-19psi I’m sure it would easily of gone over 500hp... but I figured I should quit while I’m ahead.

So overall I’m really impressed at how things turned out. This kinda kicks the door open to new potential upgrade paths that are a bit cheaper. I think we could safely raise the HP restrictions a few more HP and know a combination will still be reliable if used within its intended limits.

This also makes me cook up some awesome engine combos.

what are your guys thoughts on all of this?

I am so down with this. Sign me up

 

[Dustin02]

Noticed that the wastegate doesn't dump back into the exhaust anymore. We're you having problems controlling the boost with it being dumped back in?

 

[01smokes]

Good poop Rob. Glad you found some motivation! This IS the highest HP stock booza by a good bit! Congrats! Thanks for all you do for the bikers!

 

[01smokes]

Add some valve springs studs and a new gasket and I bet that guy will hit 500! And live!

 

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

First, thank you for showing us not just what happened but how you got there. To me, that's the interesting part.
I'm interested also in repeatability across bikes. Do you think that the 200 tq figure is what a stock gen 2 will hold as a rule, or do you think Lucy is a "ringer"? I'm also curious about the origin of the "rods good to 300 hp" and "valve springs good to 8 psi" conventional wisdom as well. You've shown that they can be surpassed, but is that repeatable?
Regardless, you're doing big thangs!

You’re very welcome. I just used the 200tq as a guideline as any base spacer motor I built and tuned up to 350ish HP, I’ve never had someone come back with a broken rod. So I figured if I didn’t go much past it the rods would stay straight. That also brings to light how dialed back this engine is. At 350hp, a base spacer motor makes around 200tq. So here we are almost 100hp more, making roughly the same torque. Because of the compression, it just wanted to make dump truck torque.

I’ve recited all those part limitations for years without having hard proof to justify those reasons. Maybe it was part manufacturers that came out and said “we tested this, and it fails, so buy our stuff.” On the other hand, from a safety aspect over building certain things is not a bad idea at all.

My biggest surprise is the valve springs. They’re 25lb seat pressure. You figure 11k rpm with 15psi of boost behind them they would float. But then occurred to me. The valves are titanium... way lighter then stainless. So less of the springs energy is wasted pulling the weight of the valve up. Duh... Well that’s how it makes sense to me.

 

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

First, thank you for showing us not just what happened but how you got there. To me, that's the interesting part.
I'm interested also in repeatability across bikes. Do you think that the 200 tq figure is what a stock gen 2 will hold as a rule, or do you think Lucy is a "ringer"? I'm also curious about the origin of the "rods good to 300 hp" and "valve springs good to 8 psi" conventional wisdom as well. You've shown that they can be surpassed, but is that repeatable?
Regardless, you're doing big thangs!

Oh and as far as Lucy goes, she’s the best “worst case senecio” test bike. High mileage, poorly maintained and beat to hell. If that old wore out make made power think of what my stuff would do on a good engine. I’ve put a little over 3k miles on here in the year that I’ve owned her. I’d say easily, has at least 150 dyno pulls at all different boost levels, and has countless big nasty Texas Highway top end runs in 100 degree heat. Honestly I’m surprised it took this long for something to happen, and in such extreme conditions.