Did Suzuki loose a customer?

[dezzy7]

Hmmm wondering if we misread road dog's post. he just seems confused about the stats. Maybe i should scan the "Grudge Match" and email it to him... As for the ugly comment, well I've always love the distinctive shape of my lue and silver bird of prey. And dropped on in the front its a butt grabbing high powered chomed out chick magnet that thet best view a zx-12 will ever get of it will be ...the tail lights ....

 

[HP Junkie]

the ZX-12 is already "built" to its extent,
the ZX-12 fit-and-finish is terrible,
the ZX-12 has very little aftermarket support,

need I go on?    

Well, yes actually, but on topic this time please.  

The first criticism I can understand without having to agree with, the second is entirely subjective and the third is moot - The issue being build quality.  

The statement was made the the Kawi lacks the build quality of the Suzuki.  The state of tune of the engine and the supposed lack of aftermarket support have absolutely nothing to do with build quality.  

Still listening...

Steve

Still listening?  Nice...

Here's a thought, I went and looked at a 12R before deciding on a Busa, I really liked the 9R I had ridden a few times so I thought yeah OK...
 Well, while looking the thing over I notice body panels that do not fit correctly, specifically the pillion cover.  Not just on one sample but both 12's in the show room, I asked the dealer WTF is up with all the crooked parts?  He says, "They are all like that."  Oh OK...  Looks are subjective, a personal choice, but body panels that have variable gaps throughout are not.  While I support Kawasaki employing the Blind in the assembly process, it may not be to the 12R's advantage, walk around one in a showroom, you'll see what I am talking about.
 Lets talk about switch gear, I have always disliked Suzuki's for their cheap feeling switch gear...well I am all better now because I have found someone who does it worse.  Let's talk about finishing of your instrument panel and the surrounding areas.  Busa looks very nicely finished; the 12R has the same wires and headlight assed up view as the 9R.  Important for performance?  Hell no, but it sure does add a nice finishing touch.
 Still listening? Good, now how about either not including your personal attacks on others in a discussion, or if you are playing, include a motie or two so it's apparent.  Sarcasm and jabs translate poorly into text.

A couple of other thoughts sort of standard I suppose...

- Busa if nothing else, for better or worse, is unique looking, my wife says it looks muscular, menacing in black I think...
12R, Looks like everything else...
- Busa has accessible power everywhere, especially down low and mid-range, where 98% of us spend most of our time.  12R from what I have heard has a really cool top end rush, but how Kawasaki managed to build a peaky 1200cc motor is a mystery.

Finally who really gives a rat's ass?  Seriously, we're all out there riding to have fun.  So who gives a damn about a 1/10th of a second this way or that?  We ride because it's a passion, something we got to do, all of us.  So are we going to stir a pot of hatred in out own sport bike community?  I mean hell everyone else already hates us as a group, why stir up more of it?   When I run into a Kawasaki mounted rider out in the sticks I do not give a damn what he or she is riding, I am just happy to find someone else out there having fun...

thanks rev, that was what i was going to say but you got there first. listen autsix i dont really care what you ride or how you ride it but what i said has merit. i wasnt talking about motors although if you read the aug issue of motorcyclist the battle between zx12 and busa was won by the busa and even kawi factory dragracing team manager john hoover said the busa has a bigger motor and more torque. what i mean about build quality is the fit of the bikes i have owned several kawis my first in 85 a gpz900 (the first ninja btw) and a 93 ninja600. i was looking at the zx12 before the busa and found thier quality issues suspect. in fact my 85 was put together better! poor fitting bodywork on a 10grand bike to me show a lack of BUILD QUALITY!

 

[Aughtsix]

Originally posted by Revlis Still listening? Nice... [/QUOTE]

Yes, I am... Are you? The question is build quality, of which 'fit and finish' is but a small part. But, let's continue...

Well, while looking the thing over I notice body panels that do not fit correctly, specifically the pillion cover. Not just on one sample but both 12's in the show room, I asked the dealer WTF is up with all the crooked parts? He says, "They are all like that." Oh OK... Looks are subjective, a personal choice, but body panels that have variable gaps throughout are not. While I support Kawasaki employing the Blind in the assembly process, it may not be to the 12R's advantage, walk around one in a showroom, you'll see what I am talking about.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the pillion cover is an issue, no argument here. However, I've seen at least half a dozen in my local area - a fairly representative sample given that I doubt there's more than a couple of dozen, tops - which had great alignment of the pillion cover, and without the use of the corrective part supplied by Kawasaki. As far as inconsistent gaps in bodywork, this isn't a problem confined to Kawasaki. Have you looked at Hondas lately? Honda had for years held the benchmark for fit and finish, and even they're slipping. I owned a BMW R1150RT that had bodywork alignment inconsistencies. Lastly, the Busa I rode had bodywork alignment inconsistencies as well, including the hump.

While I agree with you regarding bodywork inconsistencies on Kawasakis, that finger points seemingly in all directions, including Suzuki, rendering it pretty much a wash. You would have to demonstrate that the bodywork alignment of a Suzuki is consistently better than that of a Kawasaki in order to make that argument hold any water.

Lets talk about switch gear, I have always disliked Suzuki's for their cheap feeling switch gear...well I am all better now because I have found someone who does it worse.[/QUOTE]

Worse in what way? If you're referring to the cable clutch on the 12r, personally I prefer it. Here, I'll be equally ambiguous - talking about switchgear, Kawasaki does it 'better'. See the problem?

Let's talk about finishing of your instrument panel and the surrounding areas. Busa looks very nicely finished; the 12R has the same wires and headlight assed up view as the 9R.[/QUOTE]

The Busa has cosmetic panels, the 12r doesn't, being designed under the philosophy that if it isn't necessary, leave it off. This in your opinion qualifies as a 'fit and finish' issue? Oookay then. What you're suggesting is that if you can't see it, it's better? In order for you to remain consistent then you would have to conclude that the Indian Chief has better fit and finish than the Road King because it has much larger front fenders that hide more of the front wheel. And I'll bet you just love the 'fit and finish' of the Honda Pacific Coast...

Still listening? Good, now how about either not including your personal attacks on others in a discussion, or if you are playing, include a motie or two so it's apparent. Sarcasm and jabs translate poorly into text.[/QUOTE]

And what did you just do? Exactly, perhaps, what you accuse me of doing... I think you just said more about yourself than you may have intended. I would refer you to your closing statement.

- Busa if nothing else, for better or worse, is unique looking, my wife says it looks muscular, menacing in black I think...
12R, Looks like everything else...
- Busa has accessible power everywhere, especially down low and mid-range, where 98% of us spend most of our time. 12R from what I have heard has a really cool top end rush, but how Kawasaki managed to build a peaky 1200cc motor is a mystery.[/QUOTE]

In reality the 12r isn't as peaky as you think it is. It's no Busa, that's for sure, but it's not the peaky beast you imagine. Once again though this has absolutely nothing to do with build quality.

Finally who really gives a rat's ass? Seriously, we're all out there riding to have fun. So who gives a damn about a 1/10th of a second this way or that? We ride because it's a passion, something we got to do, all of us. So are we going to stir a pot of hatred in out own sport bike community? I mean hell everyone else already hates us as a group, why stir up more of it? When I run into a Kawasaki mounted rider out in the sticks I do not give a damn what he or she is riding, I am just happy to find someone else out there having fun...[/QUOTE]

I'm not entirely sure to whom this is directed - whether it's a soapbox rant or a confession. I can't help but point out that, in the same post in which this is contained, you spend time and effort deriding another's choice of bike, and, in my opinion anyway, your derision is unfounded. Perhaps you should step back, take a deep breath, then follow your own admonition.

Lastly, I would remind you that I am NOT the one who brought up the question of build quality.

Steve

 

[Aughtsix]

thanks rev, that was what i was going to say but you got there first. listen autsix i dont really care what you ride or how you ride it but what i said has merit. i wasnt talking about motors although if you read the aug issue of motorcyclist the battle between zx12 and busa was won by the busa and even kawi factory dragracing team manager john hoover said the busa has a bigger motor and more torque. what i mean about build quality is the fit of the bikes i have owned several kawis my first in 85 a gpz900 (the first ninja btw) and a 93 ninja600. i was looking at the zx12 before the busa and found thier quality issues suspect. in fact my 85 was put together better! poor fitting bodywork on a 10grand bike to me show a lack of BUILD QUALITY!

I seem to have been put in the position of being the bad guy here; so be it, you'll believe what you'll believe. I would ask all of you though to notice that I've not said one bad thing about the Hayabusa.

That having been said however, HP, it's my opinion that what you've said about the build quality of the Suzuki -vs- the Kawasaki doesn't have merit, unless we're operating on two entirely different definitions of the word 'merit'. I too have owned them both, and in comparison I would count them pretty much equal. Both have their issues, both have their strengths.

It may well be your opinion that Suzuki's build quality is better, and that's fine, and you are certainly free to make all the statements you wish about that topic. However, you ought not be surprised if someone of a differing viewpoint asks you to substantiate your statements if you're making them as catagorical. If your only answer is that you prefer one over the other, that's fine as well, but perhaps you should have said that in the first place. In other words, I wouldn't go about telling you that your favorite color isn't blue (or whatever your favorite color may be) because your favorite color is entirely subjective, and, one simply can't debate opinion.

As far as some magazine article, I couldn't care less what some magazine writer has to say - most are little more than puppets. I've ridden both bikes so I know firsthand that the Busa has more torque and is faster - you'll get no argument from me nor, may I point out, have you gotten any argument from me that the Busa is faster. Why this keeps being pointed out to me is a mystery - I've not said otherwise.

Steve

 

[HP Junkie]

thanks rev, that was what i was going to say but you got there first. listen autsix i dont really care what you ride or how you ride it but what i said has merit. i wasnt talking about motors although if you read the aug issue of motorcyclist the battle between zx12 and busa was won by the busa and even kawi factory dragracing team manager john hoover said the busa has a bigger motor and more torque. what i mean about build quality is the fit of the bikes i have owned several kawis my first in 85 a gpz900 (the first ninja btw) and a 93 ninja600. i was looking at the zx12 before the busa and found thier quality issues suspect. in fact my 85 was put together better! poor fitting bodywork on a 10grand bike to me show a lack of BUILD QUALITY!

I seem to have been put in the position of being the bad guy here;  so be it, you'll believe what you'll believe.  I would ask all of you though to notice that I've not said one bad thing about the Hayabusa.

That having been said however, HP, it's my opinion that what you've said about the build quality of the Suzuki -vs- the Kawasaki doesn't have merit, unless we're operating on two entirely different definitions of the word 'merit'.  I too have owned them both, and in comparison I would count them pretty much equal.  Both have their issues, both have their strengths.  

It may well be your opinion that Suzuki's build quality is better, and that's fine, and you are certainly free to make all the statements you wish about that topic.  However, you ought not be surprised if someone of a differing viewpoint asks you to substantiate your statements if you're making them as catagorical.  If your only answer is that you prefer one over the other, that's fine as well, but perhaps you should have said that in the first place.  In other words, I wouldn't go about telling you that your favorite color isn't blue (or whatever your favorite color may be) because your favorite color is entirely subjective, and, one simply can't debate opinion.  

As far as some magazine article, I couldn't care less what some magazine writer has to say - most are little more than puppets.  I've ridden both bikes so I know firsthand that the Busa has more torque and is faster - you'll get no argument from me nor, may I point out, have you gotten any argument from me that the Busa is faster.  Why this keeps being pointed out to me is a mystery - I've not said otherwise.

Steve

i am not suprised and i stll feel that the workmanship of the busa is better than the zx12. i currently own two kawis both dirt bikes and think they are bulletproof, but then who cares about a little fit and finish on a bike im going to thrash. i see poor workmanship all too frequently nowadays and to say that the quality of the zx12 has the same pride put into it is ignoring little things. irrelevant on a 4500.00 dirt bike too me important on a bike designed to carry me at 180mph over flesh eating asphalt. oh and if calling me on an issue means derodatory remarks learn a different method and you might not sound like a bad guy.

 

[WarBaby]

Another $.02 worth of opinion... I've ridden a ZX12, GSX1000, and, of course, my Busa--all hard riding and hard leaning. My summation:

Busa - Sport touring bike that does all things well--torque everywhere and relative comfort.

GSX1000 - Street-legal road race bike that does some things very well if not comfortably (does not have Busa torque at low RPM) but handles nimbly and effortlessly with a great power-to-weight ratio. Do you REALLY lean THAT far to drive a race bike daily?

ZX12 - Slight handling edge on the Busa but must be revved to get to it's power (does not have Busa torque at low RPM) and not so comfortable for my 190 pound bod.

I could have had any of them. They can all be modified for specific purposes (drag racing, touring, etc.) but the Busa won my heart because it's torque makes it soooo useful for real-world, everyday riding. And when people see a Busa, they know the King is alive and well on his throne!

 

[Revlis]

Blah Blah Blah, Man....Aughtsix, my point was your attacking HP Junkie either you were trying to be funny or your being an ass, that was my point in regard to using moties.
My final paragraph was stating in one little sentence what all of this discussion really boils down to...BS. If your argument is Kawi's are better, and mine is that the Busa is better and neither one of us (or anyone else here) has actually busted out calipers and measured body panel gaps, or has conducted stress testing of components we're just fartin in the wind. I love my Busa, it's fast, powerful, stable, comfortable, and unique. My preference... But there prolly cannot be a consensus reached here. So Blah Blah Blah...

Bottom line the only thing we can really argue about is something 99% of us here have never experianced first hand. The Busa VS ZX12R on the streets, head to head 1/4 mile, or a circuit course. According to almost everything you read the Busa is faster and quicker. Maybe not by much but there you go.

 

[blas32]

My friend with the 02 ZX12 is putting a big bore stroker kit in his bike. Same mods my bike had the edge. If my bike wasn't faster he would have never spent all that $$$, but he just couldn't stand the fact of not having the torque my bike has!

 

[Mikey D]

Don't stop now!

This was just getting good!

 

[cache]

aus, go to woodburn this saturday...
last Streetbike Shootout this year.
one of my racing buddies has won the championship for the series this year... on his ZX-12!
few busas, couple ZX's, other bikes... fun. Maybe see ya there!

 

[davetheman2003_81]

Well here is a word of warning for all you busa fans. Mine sucks. yes its fast and rides nice but just read my posts about my experiences. My 01 750 has over 200 passes under its belt and never a problem. My busa has 1400 miles on it and the tranny is junk. never been to the strip not even totally broke in yet. Suzuki says "oh by the way we are just going to hand you this $1500 bill to go with the $11,000 you paid for the bike. A word of advise don't do what I did finance throught suzuki that way you can atleast tell them to keep the bike and by the time its past due you could have already financed a new one through your bank. I made the mistake of buying it outright and now I have no leverage to get suzuki to fix it besides the fact that its supposed to have a warranty.

 

[davetheman2003_81]

truth be told I depend on the rider. both bikes are almost identical. zuki has the cleaner package but thats it

 

[SHODA]

Very well stated Relvis,A tenth of a second either way is of little or no consequence considering that there are very few riders around that will ever be able to ride such bikes to thier full potetial any way.The lines of the Busa are unrivaled in my opinion.After all it is the only bike that could pull me away from Ducati,dont know if you have ever seen a nice Duc but thats saying something for the Busa.When it comes to full potential realized that does'nt mean 1st and 2nd gear either.Be smooth and ride safe m8ty. SHODA

 

[Aughtsix]

Originally posted by Revlis Blah Blah Blah, Man....Aughtsix, my point was your attacking HP Junkie [/QUOTE]

You certainly have interesting definitions Rev. Not seeing something constitutes 'fit and finish' and asking someone to elaborate on a statement is 'attacking'. And again, you're the one who 'attacked' me, so your credibility is zero.

If your argument is Kawi's are better...[/QUOTE]

IF it were than you would have some ground to stand on, but it's not, nor has it been. I simply can't make that any more clear.

neither one of us (or anyone else here) has actually busted out calipers and measured body panel gaps, or has conducted stress testing of components we're just fartin in the wind.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for that confession therewith flushing your entire argument. I'm glad you made it because had I pointed it out to you any more than I already have you'd be accusing me of 'attacking' you, or some other nonsense. Essentially then, you've drug us all through the mud for nothing since you admit that your only point is groundless. Thank you so much.

-the- Busa, it's fast, powerful, stable, comfortable, and unique.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you completely, which is why I want one. Do us all a favor though, would you Rev? Stick with Graphics Design and stay away from Law.

Steve

 

[Aughtsix]

aus, go to woodburn this saturday...
last Streetbike Shootout this year.
one of my racing buddies has won the championship for the series this year... on his ZX-12!
few busas, couple ZX's, other bikes... fun. Maybe see ya there!

I'll sure try to make it up. Is there going to be a pretty good number of bikes?

Steve

 

[Road Dog]

I must really say that I knew my posting would get some attention, but you can't believe how entertaining it has been reading all of these, some better and alot not that great, comments!

To be honest I think dezzy7 and maybe a couple of other guys were the only ones to really read through what I wrote without letting all those emotions free before answering.

My intent was to raise a discussion about the year of practically no improvements on a bike that is supposed to be the flagship of Suzuki. Especially at these times when the development of street bikes is fast and it seems like they would like to introduce new models five times a year. Except our beloved Busa ofcourse. I think it would have been better to sell the bike with the same colors, that are alot better 2003 than the 2004 colors are, and even without the "New passing switch for the headlights and revamped hazard lights".
Are those really improvements worth mentioning on the main site on the internet or a matter of course?

This is were the problem for me begins. I have/want to buy a new bike this winter, but why would I change my '99 Busa for one that is basically exactly the same? And as I wrote in the first posting I may be a little "too" interested in just the tech. side of the bike, but for me it is a very big part of the whole hobby. Not least because the almost 6 months every Year with no driving. I have already put my Busa into parts and I know what it has eaten, what do I do next winter?

Then we can come to this thing about my self-esteem and selfishness. It just is too much for me, to see several Busas exactly like mine, drive by every day. I can't help feeling that the Busa will end up like the V-Max. A superb bike, at it's time, but the fact that they still deliver them is more than sad...

For those incapable of seeing further out than this board or your own yard, please don't bother to blow your tops, it's absolutely not worth it. I can't see this religion, called Hayabusa, to be ment to start wars. I ride, build and own my bike, whatever brand it is, just for fun and I do count meeting and getting to know people with the same interests as fun.

The first of my opinions we can share?

-Pete the Road Dog

PS. Sorry for the English, as you probably know it is not my native language.

 

[Revlis]

kawis do not have the build quality of suzuki...

Somehow I missed this post.  I think I must have scanned past the picture of the leg-humping dog and figured I've seen too many pictures of ugly girlfriends, but do you care to elaborate about how "kawis do not have the build quality of suzuki"??    

Steve

OK Lets break this down real quick, maybe spare us all another line by line breakdown of one of my posts.  

You entered the topic with the comment "Pete-Ignore the blow-hard, loyalist crap (really, what did you expect)..."
Sort of struck a nerve, not personal yet but set me on edge a little.  I mean, certainly we are loyal, we are on a freakin Busa Board.  

Then you post the above jab at HPJunkie, this is where I get irritated, you follow this with your little "Still Listening..." crack to Cache.  Mostly just being rude or at least I perceived your comments as rude...  not that it matters.  But stating that my credibility is zero?  Your comments are plain enough. Was my response appropriate?  Maybe not, I probably should have just let it go...But the Girlfriend reference was a bit harsh...

BUT and this is important... when I re-read your post...


"...It may well be your opinion that Suzuki's build quality is better, and that's fine, and you are certainly free to make all the statements you wish about that topic.  However, you ought not be surprised if someone of a differing viewpoint asks you to substantiate your statements if you're making them as catagorical.  If your only answer is that you prefer one over the other, that's fine as well, but perhaps you should have said that in the first place.  In other words, I wouldn't go about telling you that your favorite color isn't blue (or whatever your favorite color may be) because your favorite color is entirely subjective, and, one simply can't debate opinion.  

As far as some magazine article, I couldn't care less what some magazine writer has to say - most are little more than puppets.  I've ridden both bikes so I know firsthand that the Busa has more torque and is faster - you'll get no argument from me nor, may I point out, have you gotten any argument from me that the Busa is faster.  Why this keeps being pointed out to me is a mystery - I've not said otherwise.

Steve [/QUOTE]

It made a whole lot of sense.  You explained your POV without a lot of grammatical decoration.  Pretty much I was agreeing with you in my "Blah Blah Blah..."  Not conceding a defeat so much as stating a realization that we are in agreement when it comes down to the power and speed, and the rest of the argument is opinion, or belief.  Just no way to arrive at a solid answer. May as well tussle over religions...

Stick to Graphic Design?  No problem there, besides I think I have too much of a soul to really make a good lawyer...

 Peace man...

 

[Revlis]

I must really say that I knew my posting would get some attention, but you can't believe how entertaining it has been reading all of these, some better and alot not that great, comments!

To be honest I think dezzy7 and maybe a couple of other guys were the only ones to really read through what I wrote without letting all those emotions free before answering.

My intent was to raise a discussion about the year of practically no improvements on a bike that is supposed to be the flagship of Suzuki. Especially at these times when the development of street bikes is fast and it seems like they would like to introduce new models five times a year. Except our beloved Busa ofcourse. I think it would have been better to sell the bike with the same colors, that are alot better 2003 than the 2004 colors are, and even without the "New passing switch for the headlights and revamped hazard lights".
Are those really improvements worth mentioning on the main site on the internet or a matter of course?

This is were the problem for me begins. I have/want to buy a new bike this winter, but why would I change my '99 Busa for one that is basically exactly the same? And as I wrote in the first posting I may be a little "too" interested in just the tech. side of the bike, but for me it is a very big part of the whole hobby. Not least because the almost 6 months every Year with no driving. I have already put my Busa into parts and I know what it has eaten, what do I do next winter?

Then we can come to this thing about my self-esteem and selfishness. It just is too much for me, to see several Busas exactly like mine, drive by every day. I can't help feeling that the Busa will end up like the V-Max. A superb bike, at it's time, but the fact that they still deliver them is more than sad...

For those incapable of seeing further out than this board or your own yard, please don't bother to blow your tops, it's absolutely not worth it. I can't see this religion, called Hayabusa, to be ment to start wars. I ride, build and own my bike, whatever brand it is, just for fun and I do count meeting and getting to know people with the same interests as fun.

The first of my opinions we can share?

-Pete the Road Dog

PS. Sorry for the English, as you probably know it is not my native language.

Hey RD, once again I do not know why you are apologizing for your english skills...Nothing wrong with them...

Oh and sorry for kicken sh^t around your thread here.

So to the topic at hand.  I agree that I would like to see something new out of the Busa.  I would love to see the attention to detail that Aprillia and Ducati have mastered.  Little things, clunky rear signals, Die-cast butt ugly sidestand etc...

But despite all that you still have your 1999 Busa, allmost five years now.  Seems to me that if you have had it this long and you are not real happy with anything else out there it would be time to start getting a little more creative with your current ride.  Customize and have fun with a Busa that is all paid for.  Wait to buy something until you see that one bike that you just GOTTA have.  Sorta like when you first saw the Busa I'll bet.  Wait till something hits you in the heart and the mind, then move on it.  In the meantime, have fun with your Busa, make it unique to you, then you won't see any others like it.  Maybe 2005 Suzuki will create the Busa your waiting for...

 

[HP Junkie]

for the record my opinions are just that OPINIONS! 90 percent of this board is made up of them, the other 10% is what people should pay attention to guys with real answers ( johnnycheese, cache, ninjaeater). who gives a shid about who thinks what ,posting it only makes for good conversation(or is supposed to) . as far as the girlfriend crack i dont care ive been married too long to take offense. autsix lighten the heck up, do you really need to stay pissed off?

 

[cache]

aus, go to woodburn this saturday...
last Streetbike Shootout this year.
one of my racing buddies has won the championship for the series this year... on his ZX-12!
few busas, couple ZX's, other bikes... fun. Maybe see ya there!

I'll sure try to make it up.  Is there going to be a pretty good number of bikes?

Steve

last one held was two weeks ago,
13 bikes showed for the streetbike shootout,
3 super fast bikes came for time onlys.


I would expect at least 10 this saturday.
3 busas definitely,
one ZX12 definitely,
one ZX7 definitely,
one '03 GSXr1000 high probability,

and other bikers we don't know.....


This day the track will also host the Import/Sport Compact Challenge...... ya know... the loud fart-can cars....

Not an exciting day for a spectator. If ya don't go, I don't blame you.