shifting without using clutch?

[Revlis]

A6 the Difference is the Sequential VS Non-Sequential or (Normal) car tranny's. Only some of the latest high Performance cars are being supplied on the road with the sequential constant mesh design, that until now has been primarily used in racing. F1, CHAMP, etc. Otherwise just the bikes. (I dunno if that really explains anything or not...)

The Sequential trannys use a different technology and I am pretty sure you are correct it's not a synchro or a NonSynchro, it's Sequential... (I think)

Have I been inside a tranny that I have constantly ran using clutchless shifts?

YUP, sure have, I had 2nd gear explode on my 750.
Rode it to the local independant Guru and "we" looked inside... Now I am not a metalurgist, nor a tranny expert. But "WHY" 2nd simple exploded was never really answered, though the mechanic could NOT say for sure it was abuse. Because the forks, dogs, and the rest of the tranny looked OK... according to him...

Honestly... I think I destroyed it due to sloppy, incorrect shifting, clutchless and clutched... (Cool Story of a Heroic Save Mid Corner when that gear came apart and locked the tranny)

Clutchless downshifting being more difficult?

Simple, much harder to achieve an honestly unloaded state (Coasting) while trying to slow down than while accelerating.

Mostly if I am just rolling round town, I am usually Clutch shifting. It's when I am out in the twisties really Riding the thing that I rarely shift with the clutch, mostly because the extra smoothness I get with the clutchless shift is really handy if I need to upshift mid corner.

What I want to know is if I am hurting my clutch any by Using only two fingers on it and pulling it towards the bar against my other two fingers and not actually all the way to my bar. I mean it feels 100% disengaged, the motor revs free and there is no perceptable drag, but am I still pumping heat and friction into my clutch?

Still though, Bottom line I am not a mechanic, but I do have a high level of "mechanical sympathy", i tend to know what parts of the bike are doing what based on sound, feel and touch. FWIW...

 

[Blue Streak]

Clutch less shifting won't hurt a thing if done properly. I have been doing it on for about 5 years on bikes that I drag race every weekend and ride on the street every day. Yes I have split the cases on my bikes that I have rode for years with clutch less up shifting and the tranny's always look great. The things that destroy tranny's is missed shifts and sloppy shifts.

A6 here is something for you to think about..... an air shifter thats used for drag racing. It does not disengage the clutch when you hit the button, instead it kills the engine for a fraction of a second to unload the tranny to make the shift ( just like blurping the throttle). People have used air shifters for years in drag racing and I'm sure they would not still be selling them if they caused tranny damage.

 

[ralnsplder]

Aug, you can also damage a tranny by popping it, how do you know that all those guys that you statesd shifted without clutchs didn't pop their clutches then they took off or even for wheelies too. SO there is still no proof that it was due to clutchless shifting.

for the not hearing anything, most can hear when their tranny pops or has a hard shift from not useing a clutch. Yes if not done coerrectly I can see that it could cause damage. you know everytime you start your engine, you are startingit with no oil in the upper part of your engine. this too can cause damage over time, but you do not see people all worried about that. BAsically everytime you start your bike, you could be doing some damage to something. I didnt buy my bike to not ride it or to not ride it like it is meant to be ridden.

I also guess the people that designed the AIR Shifters didn't know what they were doing either. Funny thing is that the same people that make your PC also make an airshifter, they seem to think they are ok and I've never heard of them getting sued for causeing damage to a tranny with their product.

 

[Revlis]

ralnsplder, I would imagine though that ANY tranny that had someone Learning to shift clutchless (Especially if they aren't to bright) is going to show some accesive wear.

I think Blue Streak has it pretty well nailed, it's the sloppy shifts and missed shifts that are going to destroy things...

 

[ralnsplder]

ralnsplder, I would imagine though that ANY tranny that had someone Learning to shift clutchless (Especially if they aren't to bright) is going to show some accesive wear.  

I think Blue Streak has it pretty well nailed, it's the sloppy shifts and missed shifts that are going to destroy things...

I agree completely.

 

[Aughtsix]

Yeah, good points.

Blue Streak, I haven't really thought about air shifters, but you're right. I suppose if they caused undue damage folks wouldn't use them. But then again, having been a dragracer in my misspent youth, I know that racers will balance increased damage for decreased ET. It's perfectly acceptable to eat parts in the quest for speed... that is the racing game.

And Spider, like I said, ultimately I don't know what caused the damage in mine or my riding buddies' bikes, I only have anecdotal evidence. But the problems were strangely similar and in all three cases the mechanic said that it looked like the previous owner was "banging gears without a clutch" (two different mechanics by the way). Could it have been popping the clutch as you say? Yes, I suppose it could be, but then I would expect to see evidence of this in the clutch assembly - pieces broken off discs or maybe even broken plates, peening, abnormal wear patterns, etc.

It's also quite possible that these were 'learning' bikes, but then, I would expect to see a general pattern of abuse which wasn't there. All the bikes in question were in really good shape overall.

And it could have been sloppy shifting, with and/or without a clutch.

My bottom line is as I began my initial answer - I honestly don't know if there's long-term damage caused by shifting without a clutch. What I do know is what I've experienced and what I've seen - both of which lead me to believe that the clutch was put there for a reason, I've always used it and never had a problem, and I'm not inclined to mess with success. And like I've said, I wouldn't even think of not using the clutch to shift a syncromesh tranny so why would I shift my bike without using the clutch? I'm not out to reduce my commute time to work by .3 second or to power out of the corner down by Safeway to get the jump on the Volvos...

I guess if motorcycles are just a conveyance, just another disposable item, then it doesn't matter. Use it up and get another. But motorcycles have become to me special things and I do my very best to treat them well and make them last. Along those lines I don't do anything that I think could unduly damage my machine. Yes, they are going to wear, Spider, when you start them, but that's a necessary evil. Banging gears, in my opinion, is not.

As usual, YMMV...

Originally posted by Revlis What I want to know is if I am hurting my clutch any by Using only two fingers on it and pulling it towards the bar against my other two fingers and not actually all the way to my bar.  I mean it feels 100% disengaged, the motor revs free and there is no perceptable drag, but am I still pumping heat and friction into my clutch? [/QUOTE]

Oh man, I hope not because you've just described how I shift... Preload the shifter just a tad, pull with two fingers (middle and index) and hold light upward pressure on the shifter until I re-engage the clutch.

Steve

 

[WWJD]

I clutchless mine about 75% of the time. I have been a little less careful than most becuase I am having fun and willing to pay the price for my crimes. I suspect because I have been less than careful my gearing is getting a little beat up. But when I am shifting nicely without the clutch it feels much smoother than with the clutch to myself and passengers. So, I think it's probably fine if you do it smoothly, and bad if you kick the crap out of it

from what I read, a quality air-shifter install is meticuloously timed and tuned and does no damage and shifts much better than a human can. darn machines taking over everything

 

[Blue Streak]

Yes you are right WWJD an air shifter with the correct kill time is very safe and easy on the tranny. Alot of people use air shifters to cut down their ET and the also use them to to save the tranny's since its alot harder to miss a shift when all you are doing is pushing a button.

 

[MeltDownZ]

I've upshifted and downshifted a number of bikes and have never had any issues. The Busa is one of the easier bikes to upshift and downshift. If you race, you'll definitely want to upshift clutchless because you avoid that split second of letting off the power. I'm surprised more people don't do clutchless downshifting. It's also pretty easy once you've got the feel for it. I recommend someone try clutchless shifting a European bike like a Guzzi, BMW, or Ducati for a while. You'll find clutchless shifting on the Busa is cake.

 

[Aughtsix]

Interesting to note that 46.59% of respondents to Rev's poll indicate they use the clutch when shifting and believe it may be harmful to not.



Clutch manufacturer sponsored brainwashing? Or is there a reason perhaps for the intuition...

Steve

 

[briXXer]

truckdriver here... and there isnt a vehicle that ive driven that i dont clutchless shift. u just have to find the rpm split.. usually its about 400 rpms.. take it out at 1400 it will slip back in to the next gear at 1000.. vise versa when u are downshifting. take it out at 1000 and it will go in at 1400.. BUT u have to match the rpms so when downshifting u have to blip the throttle to bring the revs up to that point. listen to tractor trailers when downshifting.. and u will hear them blip the throttle to match them.. and also remember a clutch does not shift a tranny (it aids it) rpms and road speed shift it. for every speed in that particular gear theres a rpm that corresponds to it.

 

[Aughtsix]

truckdriver here... and there isnt a vehicle that ive driven that i dont clutchless shift.  u just have to find the rpm split.. usually its about 400 rpms.. take it out at 1400 it will slip back in to the next gear at 1000.. vise versa when u are downshifting. take it out at 1000 and it will go in at 1400.. BUT u have to match the rpms so when downshifting u have to blip the throttle to bring the revs up to that point.  listen to tractor trailers when downshifting.. and u will hear them blip the throttle to match them.. and also remember a  clutch does not shift a tranny (it aids it)  rpms and road speed shift it.  for every speed in that particular gear theres a rpm that corresponds to it.

Different system. Floating gears in a triple-shaft RoadRanger is not like shifting clutchless on a bike. And, you're not even floating every shift - when you're splitting each gear as in the high range of a 13 speed, or even splitting each gear as in both the low and high range of an 18 speed, you're only floating between each main gearset - only every other shift.

Steve

 

[briXXer]

well dont know what to tell ya.. i do it on the bike mainly up but can do it down to.. have done it in a mustang gt, porsche 951, honda civic.. all up and down the gear patterns using the way i described.

if your not right on with the civic ( i think they use hydraulic clutches) u will miss the gear and grind

 

[Aughtsix]

What do you guys have against using the clutch? I can certainly understand shifting without a clutch to shave a few hundredths if you're racing, but just to futz around town? Or to commute to work??

Help me understand the mindset...

Steve