New toy

[SierraFlyer]

Welcome to our boards Johnny Cheese or are you Nick Slick? Or are you both? In the other board's post Nickslick didn't understand how the injection works and Johnny Cheese had trouble with Marc at Factory. Why are you responding for Nick, Johnny? Are you really both posters? It is pretty low to pose as two different people and trash a company who not around to defend themselves. Lets hope you are not that guy. I will presume you are just johhny for this discussion.

One of our regular and respected posters, Rhythm, linked his reply to my post in this thread to another board where your words were written. I read them there and replied to Rhythm here about the content as it applied to Factory's reputation. No partial or twisted words were used by ME or anyone here to make you look bad. I did read your post clearly. And it appears you didn't understand me. Read mine again above and you will see things like, I said the PCll is a sensor offset system and the PClll is an output offset or output modifying system - we agree. I never said anything about battery drainage. Where did that come from? I have not used a Yosh box but understand it to be a direct replace for Power Commanders. I admit that I have no expertise on Yoshimura at all. I merely metioned them to prevent it from looking like I was singling out PC. I was trying to compare the approaches used by these different systems. But I do know exactly how they work on the fuel injection. And I do all my own work and extensive modifications on all my motorcycles, cars, boat and even my airplane. I will match my mechanical skills and expertise against anyone's standards. Especially yours.

Also you said in the other board that Factory would not give you instructions on how to change the jets. Jets? Clearly not a Hayabusa or any fuel injected bike, but I know what you are talking about. At Factory I have called concerning jets for my old Ducati on what jet settings to use and they couldn't really tell me the best combo to use. I was told to experiment. Not a lot of help from Factory on jets. It took 4 tries to get it running strong and a lot of work to pull the Ducati apart 4 times. The carbs are buried under the battery, airbox, ignition system and all of it has to be removed to get at the carbs and then it has to go back together to try it out. Its a real pain each time.

The difference between us is that I bought one of their kits and needed to know what size extra jets to buy and set up to avoid pulling that damn thing apart 5 more times. You bought a non-Factory kit but wanted them to tell you how to set it up. Why should they help you? If you didn't pay for their kit, why are they responsible to give you help? And buying something for another bike a long time ago doesn't make you a customer. That is my point. That is why I said you were looking for a freebee. Tell me I am wrong.......?

Am I misunderstanding this?

You make it sound like you have installed a jet kit in a carburator before and therefore you should know that instructions are not needed to remove jets. They simply are replaced with the new ones after you get the float bowl off. You don't need any instuctions to remove jets. The jet size is stamped right on them. Anyone who has done it once knows the procedure. Or have you never opened a carb up? If DJ shorted you some instructions, go to them for help. Don't call Factory aholes because they wouldn't do what DJ also wouldn't do. I mean if they are so much better and fixed your flat spot, blah, blah, blah; why not juststick with DJ?

I look forward to your reply Nick.........er, Johnny

 

[Daddy Fatsac]

well damn...that was an outstanding reply. Go Sierraflyer! Ok...I'll shut up now. heh

 

[Johnnycheese]

You are an Idiot all right

No I am Johnnycheese the one and only.
As for your comments you are still off in left field.
I don't play as a hobby with motorcycles it is my live.Period.
I work on Carbs or fuel injection daily. I do know what I am doing.
Why does Factory not want to tell me which kit?

?
I see you have no clue that they make 2 different kits I need to know which one so I could make sure their stuff was out.
I would have rather used their kit but it makes for a nasty flat spot on Honda F-4s the Dynojet kit does not.
So would you care if it was your money?

Yes you would!!!
I now have to charge you for my time to firqure out what was changed.
If they had good customer service they could have Faxed me the install instuctions or emailed them,or told me.
Sure I was honest does that mean you are a lair?
What if I was working on a carb and needed base info as you even said no help.
Freebie HAHAHAHAHA that is just bad Customer service and being you are not in the bussiness you are still clueless.
You want to go up against me with mechanical skills.
Bad move. Get you AZZ to Texas and lets see what you got.
PS you can't use a Powercommander just your 600.00 toy.
And you have to use a Factory dyno aswell good luck tuning.
There is one of their POS in town as well but guess who is does more work.

 

[Johnnycheese]

PS let me add that I guess I sould not give out freebies to people that don't buy from me either.
If that was the case I guess boards like this would not exist?
How many times have you asked for info??
But you don't count correct

 

[Daddy Fatsac]

First off let me state I'm not apart of this flaming war. I have a question for you Mr. Cheese.

I'm interested in buying one of those POS $600 dollar toys. I need to make a sound decision before spending that kind of money. Ok...enough off that...now the question.

Why would I need to go to a Factory dyno to tune it? Couldn't I use any dyno to see what the HP gains are and such? From what I understand is that I can make changes while the bike is running. As for the PC2 (in my case) I'd have to disconnect hook up to a computer, you may have to do this 20-100 times or more before getting the PC2's mapping right. The Factory pro gizmo seems like the way to go...but if you know something I don't...fill me in.

 

[rubbersidedown]

DUDES....some of us are BIGTIME interested in these products.   Is there any chance that this could be kept technical for a couple of rounds .  A point by point thing would be great .

           Maybe stop refering to Sierra Flyer's last purchase as  "A TOY" .  
                  So far he seems to be the only one with the hands on experience with this particular piece of equipment and its seems a bit harsh and unessesary to impune the guy or his latest piece of tune-up science .

      Mr. Cheese...I dont know you . You claim to be a gr8 tuner...cool....   give me an' the rest of the board some science .  Have you tried the latest and greatest thing out there .    If you have , and found that it dosent work , I for one would like to know why .  Sierra seems like a pretty stand-up guy , and I'm sure you , Mr. Cheese have people that like you aswell .
 
  I guess I'm hoping for some logic here , a chance to learn something .

  The name-calling an' such belongs on the other sites .

  Not that I haven't been involved in the odd squable here an' there...I finally woke up to the fact that "Arguing On The Internet , Is Like Running In The Special Olympics , Even If You Win...Yer Still A Retard ".

  Most of us on here get along way to good to have an' interest in wafting thru tons O crap hopin' to scrape out one tiny little morsel of intelligence .

  Anyways ,   hope we get to hear all the pro's/con's of both.

 

[Johnnycheese]

First off let me state I'm not apart of this flaming war.  I have a question for you Mr. Cheese.  

I'm interested in buying one of those POS $600 dollar toys.  I need to make a sound decision before spending that kind of money.  Ok...enough off that...now the question.  

Why would I need to go to a Factory dyno to tune it?  Couldn't I use any dyno to see what the HP gains are and such?  From what I understand is that I can make changes while the bike is running.  As for the PC2 (in my case) I'd have to disconnect hook up to a computer, you may have to do this 20-100 times or more before getting the PC2's mapping right.  The Factory pro gizmo seems like the way to go...but if you know something I don't...fill me in.

 

Too bad there is not a tuning center in Japan.
The only way posible to tune either properly is to either read O2 or use what a Factroy dyno uses and read HC.
I prefer o2 due to that is what 99% of the industy uses.
Doing by seat of the pants is REAL old school, takes time,and you are only guessing that it is correct it may feel good and your gas mileage goes to 20MPG

seen that alot on customers who thing they can map by seat of the pants.
Useing a dyno for HP gains won't work either due to it is the driveablity you want.
You need a load control dyno with either one of the sniffers to make it work.
so before I would pay $600.00 for the Factory product or $250.00 for the Dynojet product you need to find a dyno that will work and then have a map made.
PS it is $200.00 that I charge to make a map so it is still cheaper to buy than the Factory one and I can adjust timing and do not need to buy anything else.
heres a clue a Busa does not want any advance

 

[SLEEPERBUSA]

heres a clue a Busa does not want any advance

Especially on a BIG motor like Daddy is building!

Prolly gonna need some retard!

 

[SLEEPERBUSA]

I would like to say that I am not gonna take sides, BUT, sorry, I can't!
JohnnyCheese knows his poop!
If he doesn't know something, he finds out!

Nick is in California and Johnny is in Texas.

The Busa is out for 5 years and 1 board member thinks he's got good results from the TEKA, so that makes the rest of us wrong?

I would be willing to BET $100 that if  SierraFlyer took his bike to a Dynojet 250 tuning station, he would find that his bike was better than stock............BUT, his A/F ratio would NOT be correct!
The sniffer tells the truth. It tells what the bike "likes".
Sorry, but just because it feels better, doesn't mean that it's finished.

Do you wanna make it feel "better" for $600, or do you wanna spend the money to "know" that it's correct and get complete results?

If you just wanna feel better, get someone with a Yosh box to reset your stock settings.

BTW,
thats what a Yosh box does. It reprograms your stock ECU, not the sensors.

I would rather learn the truth, than just try to win an argument.

NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING will work without a good dyno.
Not a stock ECU thats tuned with a Yosh box, a TEKA, OR a PCII/III.
You are just guessing untill you get the A/F correct!

Take the TEKA to a tuning center and have it sniffed.
THEN and only THEN will you be able to tune it correctly!

 

[SLEEPERBUSA]

 Maybe stop refering to Sierra Flyer's last purchase as  "A TOY" .

Knock, Knock.

Check the title of this thread?!?!?!

 

[rubbersidedown]

 Maybe stop refering to Sierra Flyer's last purchase as  "A TOY" .

Knock, Knock.

Check the title of this thread?!?!?!

after this whole entire thread...thats what you pick up on.

WOW....hang on...here it comes...."golf-clap".

Actually...it was being used in a derogatory manner by some, thats why I mentioned it .

So....go back to SLEEP .

 

[Johnnycheese]

well I tried to answer your questions did I not do a good job?

 

[SLEEPERBUSA]

 Maybe stop refering to Sierra Flyer's last purchase as  "A TOY" .

Knock, Knock.

Check the title of this thread?!?!?!

after this whole entire thread...thats what you pick up on.

  WOW....hang on...here it comes...."golf-clap".

  Actually...it was being used in a derogatory manner by some, thats why I mentioned it .  

  So....go back to SLEEP .

 

[rubbersidedown]

well I tried to answer your questions did I not do a good job?

johnny....u r rockin' , yer makin' sense , I'm learning . I love it . Once the bull$hit is thrown out , the science has a chance to float to the surface . I learned how to use exhaust-gas-annalizers in high school for fug sake. Ya, there are better ways to tune . I think Sierra got a lil pissed(an' I dont think anyone can really blame him) cause he found what he thinks is the next newest best technology . I think what he's got is good for the average everyday kinda biker.
Same with Power Commanders...in the hands of "us"..."Bob-the-backyard-mechanic" ....they are only so effective .

"You are only as good as your tools"....

Problem is....some of us are tools.....

I'm not sure thou...I'll have to go back an' read , but it sounded to me like the other DEVICE (toy) had just as many if not more features built into it . If it can do exactly what a PC I II or III can do , and more.....you better pick one up for yer toolbox there Johnny ma man . If word gets out , nobody is gonna want to spend $ on the PC...when they can have the stock brain adjusted to meet their needs .

make sense ?

 

[Johnnycheese]

not sold on that system yet.
600.00 is alot and you can't adjust timing and the item that Sierra flyer is getting won't help him one bit.
due to you need to add and subtract timing just like the fuel.
still cheaper to have a map made with a PC2 or 3 and you don't have to do anything except ride.
600.00 and you still have to map it

I don't know of any dynos that let you map it your self so add $200-$400(depends on where you live) I charge $200.00

 

[rubbersidedown]

not sold on that system yet.
600.00 is alot and you can't adjust timing and the item that Sierra flyer is getting won't help him one bit.
due to you need to add and subtract timing just like the fuel.
still cheaper to have a map made with a PC2 or 3 and you don't have to do anything except ride.
600.00 and you still have to map it

 
I don't know of any dynos that let you map it your self so add $200-$400(depends on where you live) I charge $200.00

see....I'm all fugged up here , I thought you could adjust the timing .

Johnny....isnt timing pretty much left stock for the majority of us....if yer gonna run a big huge mill ....then you probably need to slo things down a bit (retard the timing) .

But for the average BoZo , isnt timing left alone , pretty much .

'Cept for the TRE...an' the blah blah blah...

I just tossed on a full Hindle titanium and did'nt do much to the timing . Seems to run fine . I dont know forsure thou.

And I would guess that this is the TUNING GURU's point.

I'm not sitting on a dyno . NO...I dont have an EGA stickin' outa my a$$...or the Busa's A$$ for that matter .

I'm good 2 go Johnny.....'cept for 1 thing....
200 samolees to hook a brutha up .

DUDE...for that kinda dough , the tune-up better cum wiff free VASOLINE . hee hee hee .

Kiddin' Johnny Cheese-Cake . have a good 1 . RSD.

 

[SLEEPERBUSA]

RSD,
$200 will get a complete custom map.
From idle to redline, every 500 or 1000 rpms,
every throttle position.

THAT'S ALOT of work!

No matter what kind of riding, it will be correct, NOT close.

Most people charge $250-$400 for that service.

I'm sure the TEKA will do the same tuning(or close), but you won't know till it gets on the dyno.

Sorry,

I don't want, "CLOSE"!

I want my poop, DEAD ON!

 

[rubbersidedown]

RSD,
$200 will get a complete custom map.
From idle to redline, every 500 or 1000 rpms,
every throttle position.

THAT'S ALOT of work!

No matter what kind of riding, it will be correct, NOT close.

Most people charge $250-$400 for that service.

I'm sure the TEKA will do the same tuning(or close), but you won't know till it gets on the dyno.

Sorry,

I don't want, "CLOSE"!

I want my poop, DEAD ON!

I think johnny probably has a better sense of humour than you do . He knows he does good work , his customers know he does good work , I'm not positive but i dont think the has any shortage of work or $ . Custom made map for 200 is nuthin' , I do know whats involved , 200 is a great deal ,
and contrary to what you stated in another thread , I have some familiarty with bikes . No, Im probably not the guru that you've pimped yerself up to be , I'm just here tryin' to learn something , I took a shot a getting everybody to calm down an get to the chase , which paid off bigtime , but then you keep comin' in with yer creepy little deal . I dont get it,man . It's like two or three times in different threads your right there to try an' hump my leg . You read thru 20 pages of stuff an' pick me outa the group . Whatever man .

 

[SierraFlyer]

Sorry I have been gone from this for a few days. I also calmed down a bit.

It appears that Johnny is threatened and reacting to my post. I will say that the last few days of riding has validated one of his claims. YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE STOCK LEAN IDLE CONDITION JOHNNY. There I said it! Marc at factory agrees with you too (ouch). In fact is was he that posted on his website a long time ago under "tuning tips" that we can expect to enrich the low end and by the time you get to 100% throttle the mix is too rich and needs to be leaned a lot. His claim is correct so far and matches yours exactly.

Going technical - I used the "Toy" and set up the idle and off idle using the seat-of-the-pants approach. I still haven't messed with the 25% to 100% throttle yet - no time. It needed to be enriched from stock to idle cleanly. 10%, or off idle, needed to be enriched too to get best throttle response. Now the engine is ultra smooth. Damn thing purrs! The results of this tuning is surprising. Power is smooth and at least as strong as it was. Throttle response is crisp with no more stumbles and hesitations. But what really got me was gas mileage is way up when cruising. I was getting only 34 MPG freeway before. That is one reason I bought the TEKA. I adjusted the TPS and it came up to 36 MPG. Then tuned it with the TEKA and I now get 46 MPG when I am not getting into it. That is over 30% better gas mileage just by fattening up the low end slightly. I didn't need a dyno for that. I ran some twisties this morning pretty hard and still got 41 MPG.

Next I will use the "old fashion" dyno....timed runs in the real world to get the best mixture figured out for max performance for the rest of the throttle positions. I need to say at this point that I don't care at all about emmissons. Power is all that matters to me. So a sniffer is worthless to me. If I am running too rich for the HC level and my O2 is not "optimum" BUT I am pulling the 1/4 mile faster, That is ALL that matters. You use a value for each of these exhaust components and tune for them. But each bike doesn't burn fuel the same way (different shaped flame fronts) and may actually make slightly more power while burning slightly dirty.

This is where we all differ from you. You have access to a dyno for free. I am not about to go out and buy a Dyno or even time on one. It is too much money for a one time adjustment. The TEKA lets me hook up to the ECU and adjust it anytime until I get it perfect. I can hook up to anyone's Suzuki and adjust theirs too. I can "remap" completely(your words Johnny) every day in about 30 minutes if I want to optimize it that much. The TEKA doesn't stay on the bike like a PC does (for those who aren't familiar with it). It is only a tool to set the flash memory, or as you like to call it "Map" the ECU directly. By the way, It is not possible to remap a Suzuki ECU without tearing it apart. The unit is Read protected. You can't download the PROM code at all. Even the TEKA doesn't change the maps. It changes the "shape" of the fuel curves in the microprocessor by changing program weights (coefficients) as calculated by the ECU at different RPM ranges. The Teka doesn't touch the timing at all. The PC does, but the way a PC does it is not accurate. It takes the pulse for a spark and delays it for almost two crank revolutions and then sparks the next combustion cycle a little early to simulate advance. The timing must be extremely accurate at high RPM to get the spark to the plug at the precise instant. Tolerance in the electrical components can drift with temperature and cause what others can "scatter" at high RPM and you actually lose HP.

Bottom line is that for shade tree mechanics like most of us, the only "map" we would get for a PC is one that is down loaded from some website. We would install in the PC and hope the bike runs better than it did. Some of us might even buy some dyno time and try to further optimize the "map". And that might work for that day. But the next day might be a different temperature or atmospheric pressure or what have you and the bike is not optimized again. Close but not perfect. And after that any time that bike is modified for intake/exhaust/engine, it would need another trip down to the dyno. More $ gone.

Then consider the TEKA, it plugs into a socket already on the bike for just that purpose. You start the engine and let it warm up. The TEKA is now active. Punch in the command you want and change that setting. You hear the engine change RPM after you push "enter". Now you take it for a ride with the TEKA still plugged in and try out the change. Not good enough? change the setting on the TEKA on the track or side of the road and then try it out. Better? Good, now go to the next throttle range and optimise it. Done? Ride home and unplug the TEKA and put it away in your tool box with the other tools. Or leave it under the hump since it is about the size of a large computer mouse with a 4 foot cable attached. Adjust your buddy's bike or a dozen others for no additional cost. So $600 may seem like a lot but it is cheaper than a PC and one trip to a dyno shop. But then it is free the next time I want to change to a race air filter, etc. Or it is free if I need to fine tune the ECU for track day.

If this catches on, there won't be a need for dyno shops anymore for the average rider. Better learn how to change tires, eh Johnny?

 

[monsterspeedfreak]

I'm just here tryin' to learn something

yeah, me too..... but all this fighting ain't helpin.
Let's use the post whoring thread if we're gonna chuck crap boys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!