HPC Scammed and lied to me, BEWARE
- Thread starter 8secBusa
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Draco1340
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Its difficult (but not impossible) to determine if a valve was bent due to improper clearance or cam timing, or if it was dropped due to a spit shim and valve float. Before I flamed anyone, I would whant to be 100% sure one way or another.
If the stock valves and stock springs were in the motor, there is no way anyone could be 100% certain it wasn't valve float. The stock valves and springs are on the very hairy edge of failure, and as soon as you increase lift or duration or raise a rev limiter, you shouldn't be suprised by failure. Thats why everyone who races seriously changes to SS valves and 65# springs. Unless you could show that the cam timing and piston / valve clearance was insufficient, I would be hesitant to make those claims.
If the stock valves and stock springs were in the motor, there is no way anyone could be 100% certain it wasn't valve float. The stock valves and springs are on the very hairy edge of failure, and as soon as you increase lift or duration or raise a rev limiter, you shouldn't be suprised by failure. Thats why everyone who races seriously changes to SS valves and 65# springs. Unless you could show that the cam timing and piston / valve clearance was insufficient, I would be hesitant to make those claims.
I agree with you 100% but if (1) valve dropped and nothing else occurred.
Would you not be at the maximum out the cost of (1) valve $22.00 , nothing else. Thats our position in this twisted tale.
The valve drop showed a HP drop during that pull, motor had a different tone, turned bike off, compression test showed 0% on #3, pulled head and valve was dropped. New valves and retainers installed zero issues.
We have had zero issues with every bike even stock bikes with larger NOS applications or stage one turbo's using the APE springs and retainers that is why we use them and will only use them from here on out.
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jdsbusa
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If upgrading to a 1441 why wouldn't SS valves have been priced in accordingly in the first place from whomever rebuilt the head? The stock ti valves are not meant to hold up to any serious HP - everyone I've seen go big bore or turbo has changed out the valves first thing on the Gen 2's. Suzuki sure didn't help the gen 2 head by changing out to a titanium valve setup. The hp gains would be negligible at best from the small amount of reduction in weight. Sometimes giving up weight for durability is a not-so-wise decision.
slash
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It is a real shame these threads are allowed to be posted like this. You can help 1000 people perfectly but the one guy that is unhappy can just totally ruin your rep. I can GUARANTEE there are 3 sides here and Seeing as I have never heard a bad word about HPC i would also guarantee they know what they are doing. We have all seen and read about the products they turn out.
I would take my bike there anyday regardless of this review..
I would take my bike there anyday regardless of this review..
09BusaDrvr
Registered
Interesting read for sure...but like all reviews, take it for whats its worth. If HPC has been great for 3600 customers and bad for 1 then those are odds I'm willing to deal with. Just like going on vacation...you will always find someone saying the hotel was nasty or the staff sucked...regardless of how nice the place is.
I totally agree that this could have been handled better but this a forum FULL of opinions so just let it ride as that...his opinion. HPC has a great response on the other thread.
I totally agree that this could have been handled better but this a forum FULL of opinions so just let it ride as that...his opinion. HPC has a great response on the other thread.
How are you going to personally name people in this case Greg, and put it out as he did a poor job, without even trying to sort things out....sorry bud, but .orgsters here have been dealing with Greg and HPC for longgggg and just because you had a little misfortune that WAS corrected and totally explained for its cause....they backed up the problem and resolved it, the rest ...well...the third POV shows YOUR integrity
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From what appears to be the story, you had a custom motor built up with stock valves and springs. The motor was run on a dyno for three sessions with no problems and then run again at another dyno? I take it it let go on the other dyno?
Anyway, that is not relevant. ANY time you run a motor repeatedly on a dyno the chance of an engine failure is there. A dyno sheet should be signed holding the dyno owner/operator harmless for damages. I and many others have seen MANY, MANY engines let go on dynos and at the track for "seemingly" no reason. That is called RACING! I keep saying how expensive it is to have modded motors, turbo motors etc. You have to have some deep pockets to fix bugs that may crop up.
It appears that if what Greg says is true, your motor is currently working fine with the new valves and springs. It also appears that he gave you back a running bike in the end? Just with new valves and springs? That is the "normal" way issues are handled on the dyno. The customer pays for any and all damage on the dyno. It is very, very stressful on an engine to do lots of dyno time.
I would not get into this except that if what Greg says is true, I had nearly the exact type of problem with a customer who flamed me for a rod failure on a Honda 250 ATV alcohol motor, even though it left the dyno and the shop running fine. The next day the rod let go and he blamed it on my product and how it must have caused it to blow up. I have been where Greg is and it is NOT FUN or FUNNY. Some guys don't know enough abou motors to realize the risk involved in racing engines. My rant is over.....sorry if I offend anyone, it is just that I have mental issues with this stuff.........
Now if I have this story wrong, disregard this post. If it is what I "think" it is, then I have laid out the normal rules regarding racing engines and dynos. I still get upset if I even think of that whole issue that I had............that was 8 years ago.
Anyway, that is not relevant. ANY time you run a motor repeatedly on a dyno the chance of an engine failure is there. A dyno sheet should be signed holding the dyno owner/operator harmless for damages. I and many others have seen MANY, MANY engines let go on dynos and at the track for "seemingly" no reason. That is called RACING! I keep saying how expensive it is to have modded motors, turbo motors etc. You have to have some deep pockets to fix bugs that may crop up.
It appears that if what Greg says is true, your motor is currently working fine with the new valves and springs. It also appears that he gave you back a running bike in the end? Just with new valves and springs? That is the "normal" way issues are handled on the dyno. The customer pays for any and all damage on the dyno. It is very, very stressful on an engine to do lots of dyno time.
I would not get into this except that if what Greg says is true, I had nearly the exact type of problem with a customer who flamed me for a rod failure on a Honda 250 ATV alcohol motor, even though it left the dyno and the shop running fine. The next day the rod let go and he blamed it on my product and how it must have caused it to blow up. I have been where Greg is and it is NOT FUN or FUNNY. Some guys don't know enough abou motors to realize the risk involved in racing engines. My rant is over.....sorry if I offend anyone, it is just that I have mental issues with this stuff.........
Now if I have this story wrong, disregard this post. If it is what I "think" it is, then I have laid out the normal rules regarding racing engines and dynos. I still get upset if I even think of that whole issue that I had............that was 8 years ago.
blusmbl
Registered
I don't agree with this completely. Dynoing an engine is no worse on a motor than an extended WOT run or a dragstrip pass. There is an inherent risk with building a race motor, though.
There are a couple scenarios where I believe the shop should be responsible. One is a tuner that leans out a motor on the dyno, causing internal damage in the process. The other is improper assembly, again causing the motor to let go. Both of those shouldn't be the bike owner's responsibility, you're paying somebody for their knowledge and ability, if they can't assemble a motor correctly to last 3 runs on a dyno then you really shouldn't be forced to pay for it.
It seems like this situation is different. If there were no witness marks on the other 3 pistons or 7 valves (on whichever side dropped) it wasn't a piston to valve clearance issue and isn't HPC's fault. To keep the customer happy I would've ate the cost of the valve and the reassembly cost. But if this was definitively caused by valve float due to the keepers/retainers/springs/valves chosen by the owner, than the upgrade to capable parts is the owner's responsibility, IMHO.
ANY AND ALL runs on my dyno are owner's responsibility unless I do a complete top to bottom build as a failure in the bottom could destroy my perfect top end build.NO IF AND OR BUTS,once it comes apart at 10k rpms lots of stuff gets destroyed,sometimes no way to figure out cause of failure.I would also say if not all parts are brought from me I can't tell you what may happen even if i do everything right with used parts from somewhere else...It's a catch 22,and I will never rush to build a motor,i make check things 2-3 times before I move to next step to cover the basics.
This is an unfortunate situation. I hope it works out well for both parties. Iv purchased some parts from Greg and Terra and they were both great to deal with. Greg was a gentlemen and I will still continue to purchase anything I need from him in the future. This is a public forum and people are given the right to rant, I suppose its just something that the Sponsors are prepared to deal with. HPC, they are still great in my book. Best of luck to both gents.
Hope everything works out, I've never heard anything but good things about HPC.
ROCKSTEADY
Registered
I think this is a good learning curve for everyone
lessons to learn
ask as many questions as you can about the work you want done, risk factors warranty liability. Etc write all of these down On a piece of paper (you can never remember all off the top of your head.
Don't always be ready to put your dukes up with builders I'm pretty sure you shop around and do your home work before you take your bike to them with confidence.
If not we will all be doing work ourselves,and blaming yourself for your own mess.
if you give someone the respect to do work for you ,give them the respect they deserve by fixing the problem verses putting people on blast(the truth will always come out ) On either side.
Message for builders some folks out there don't know certain risks ofwhat they are getting into when you start ripping I to a motor list or give all factors involving Work being done
this protects you and them even a contract a out risk is good.
If you do make a mistake whis theydo happen we are only human man up to it and help solve it .
Just my two cents about getting work done on any piece of equip
ent thanks
lessons to learn
ask as many questions as you can about the work you want done, risk factors warranty liability. Etc write all of these down On a piece of paper (you can never remember all off the top of your head.
Don't always be ready to put your dukes up with builders I'm pretty sure you shop around and do your home work before you take your bike to them with confidence.
If not we will all be doing work ourselves,and blaming yourself for your own mess.
if you give someone the respect to do work for you ,give them the respect they deserve by fixing the problem verses putting people on blast(the truth will always come out ) On either side.
Message for builders some folks out there don't know certain risks ofwhat they are getting into when you start ripping I to a motor list or give all factors involving Work being done
this protects you and them even a contract a out risk is good.
If you do make a mistake whis theydo happen we are only human man up to it and help solve it .
Just my two cents about getting work done on any piece of equip
ent thanks
I will say I have learned a huge amount from this event or incident, matter of opinion. If I could spin the world back to that first phone call, "hello is greg there"... I would have said, sorry we are tied up for six weeks. But....though this situation evolved into change to the HPC operational procedures, I see it as a positive thing and another step on the hill to growth.
I just ask this from everyone we do business with, CALL ME A POS...say something....to me, when your not happy just tell me right off the bat right when it happens, right at the time I call and say things went wrong. Sometimes I let down my gaurd, bend the rules and do more than I should, sometimes I do exactly that and nothing less.
Like I said before.....nothing is more important to me and HPC than you running the living snot over ALL in the other lane. I love competition. Of course with my stickers on your bike. If we somehow missed that mark by a long stretch, I am sorry. I said it then and I will say it again. I have done everything I would have expected as a 26 year, veteran customer with tons of buying experience from bikes to cars and watches and computers with what I had to work with at the time. Am I better NOW, yes!
I hope Adam and I can find a better place, I think some cooling off time is needed by everyone involved, then a chat face to face and hopefully a handshake. We will see.
I am trying to be the better man! Its not too late for anyone else!!
over and out!
Greg Williams
I just ask this from everyone we do business with, CALL ME A POS...say something....to me, when your not happy just tell me right off the bat right when it happens, right at the time I call and say things went wrong. Sometimes I let down my gaurd, bend the rules and do more than I should, sometimes I do exactly that and nothing less.
Like I said before.....nothing is more important to me and HPC than you running the living snot over ALL in the other lane. I love competition. Of course with my stickers on your bike. If we somehow missed that mark by a long stretch, I am sorry. I said it then and I will say it again. I have done everything I would have expected as a 26 year, veteran customer with tons of buying experience from bikes to cars and watches and computers with what I had to work with at the time. Am I better NOW, yes!
I hope Adam and I can find a better place, I think some cooling off time is needed by everyone involved, then a chat face to face and hopefully a handshake. We will see.
I am trying to be the better man! Its not too late for anyone else!!
over and out!
Greg Williams
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I've known Greg for over a year and all I can tell you folks is that he's one of the most honest guys I've ever met in my life.
I'm not gonna go into details but he's done so many extra things for me that I didn't ask for. He always goes the extra mile just to make sure that my ride is in mint condition.
One thing I can NEVER forget is when he came home from Texas and he wasn't feeling well. He was sick that day but he still went to the shop to finish working on my bike so I can pick it up. How many people would do something like that? Thanks again for doing that, Greg. It means a lot to me.
Greg, just like what NINJA KILLER said, I have a lot of respect for you. Thanks for always being there for me. I really appreciate everything.
YOU DA MAN!!!
I'm not gonna go into details but he's done so many extra things for me that I didn't ask for. He always goes the extra mile just to make sure that my ride is in mint condition.
One thing I can NEVER forget is when he came home from Texas and he wasn't feeling well. He was sick that day but he still went to the shop to finish working on my bike so I can pick it up. How many people would do something like that? Thanks again for doing that, Greg. It means a lot to me.
Greg, just like what NINJA KILLER said, I have a lot of respect for you. Thanks for always being there for me. I really appreciate everything.
YOU DA MAN!!!
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