I am just looking for facts and references for that information. I am mostly interested in road racing and flat track. From my understanding, Harley has not won a road race since Daytona in 1969. They made a mediocre attempt with the vr1000 which might have done something if it had been produced earlier. It seems the vr1000 was only sold in Poland because they were the only ones who would allow it to be street legal to shadily comply with A.M.A. rules. I don't think it ever won a race and was competed on from 1994 to 2001. How does Buel get away with producing race only bikes when other manufacturers have to use production based bikes? I have heard stories about Harley influencing the A.M.A. to maintain dominance in flat track, such as rule changing to oust competition and displacement limits that favored Harley. It is also my understanding that they cannot match what the Japanese manufacturers are doing with the displacement being even. I am not trying to offend anyone and am interested only in facts that can be substantiated. I would really like a clear understanding without all of the factless accusations. Please correct me if I am wrong showing references if at all possible.
Harley in racing
- Thread starter wv rider
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You seem to have all the facts about Harley and the AMA. And Buell, well, Harley steped in before they dumped Buell with an agreement. Buell should be history next year, or then again, maybe not. Seems, AMA just does what it wants with the rules
Can you by chance shed some light on harley and the A.M.A.? Everything I have is second hand. Do you know where I can find some documented evidence of Harleys involvement to keep the Japanese manufacturers away from flat track? Does the A.M.A. keep any kind of public archives? If so, how can I access them?
Can you expound on this for me please. Thanks for the reply. I will look on the NHRA website to see if I can get a copy of the rules and regulations.
cipher5791
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:eh::bored:
BUSA GHOSTRIDER
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I'm not sure where to start....... so........ You'll have to get on the internet and GOOGLE a couple of things to find all the races buell has won in the last year. It's been quite a few. I'll post some links in a min.
Now, I've had the argument a million times, Is a Buell a "Harley" and I just don't want to get sucked into that one again. So here is a link to the newest AMA XR1200 race that Harley won. Not sure, but I believe it is only harley XR1200's that run. Still a win though.
Danny ESLICK WINS INAUGURAL Harley Davidson XR1200 RACE : Lucas Oil
Now, if you consider the Buell a "Harley" then I belive that Danny Eslick won the AMA 600 class last year on an 1125 RR. Link below.
http://www.buell.com/en_us/racing/racing-news/detail.asp?news_id=1486
He won all kinds of races throughout the year.
Now onto the "Race Only" bike thing. You can purchase an 1125R from Buell if you would like to. http://www.buell.com/en_us/bikes/sport/1125R/ Thats the link to Buells site.
I know you cant buy the 1125RR unless you are an AMA roadracer, but it costs 40K. I'm not sure but I don't believe you can just buy an AMA race bike from any manufacture. I believe there are a lot more things done to these bikes by the AMA teams than pulling one off the showroom floor. I have heard that you can have your bike done up for you but it will cost anywhere in the ballpark of 20K to make it like an AMA bike. So, I don't really see the distinction between what Buell has done and any other manufacture. Infact I belive graves motorsports will build you a track bike for around $30,000 if you call them, and that would be the same bike Ben Bostrom rides with your suspension setup.
Now, I've had the argument a million times, Is a Buell a "Harley" and I just don't want to get sucked into that one again. So here is a link to the newest AMA XR1200 race that Harley won. Not sure, but I believe it is only harley XR1200's that run. Still a win though.
Danny ESLICK WINS INAUGURAL Harley Davidson XR1200 RACE : Lucas Oil
Now, if you consider the Buell a "Harley" then I belive that Danny Eslick won the AMA 600 class last year on an 1125 RR. Link below.
http://www.buell.com/en_us/racing/racing-news/detail.asp?news_id=1486
He won all kinds of races throughout the year.
Now onto the "Race Only" bike thing. You can purchase an 1125R from Buell if you would like to. http://www.buell.com/en_us/bikes/sport/1125R/ Thats the link to Buells site.
I know you cant buy the 1125RR unless you are an AMA roadracer, but it costs 40K. I'm not sure but I don't believe you can just buy an AMA race bike from any manufacture. I believe there are a lot more things done to these bikes by the AMA teams than pulling one off the showroom floor. I have heard that you can have your bike done up for you but it will cost anywhere in the ballpark of 20K to make it like an AMA bike. So, I don't really see the distinction between what Buell has done and any other manufacture. Infact I belive graves motorsports will build you a track bike for around $30,000 if you call them, and that would be the same bike Ben Bostrom rides with your suspension setup.
I'm not sure where to start....... so........ You'll have to get on the internet and GOOGLE a couple of things to find all the races buell has won in the last year. It's been quite a few. I'll post some links in a min.
Now, I've had the argument a million times, Is a Buell a "Harley" and I just don't want to get sucked into that one again. So here is a link to the newest AMA XR1200 race that Harley won. Not sure, but I believe it is only harley XR1200's that run. Still a win though.
Danny ESLICK WINS INAUGURAL Harley Davidson XR1200 RACE : Lucas Oil
Now, if you consider the Buell a "Harley" then I belive that Danny Eslick won the AMA 600 class last year on an 1125 RR. Link below.
http://www.buell.com/en_us/racing/racing-news/detail.asp?news_id=1486
He won all kinds of races throughout the year.
Now onto the "Race Only" bike thing. You can purchase an 1125R from Buell if you would like to. http://www.buell.com/en_us/bikes/sport/1125R/ Thats the link to Buells site.
I know you cant buy the 1125RR unless you are an AMA roadracer, but it costs 40K. I'm not sure but I don't believe you can just buy an AMA race bike from any manufacture. I believe there are a lot more things done to these bikes by the AMA teams than pulling one off the showroom floor. I have heard that you can have your bike done up for you but it will cost anywhere in the ballpark of 20K to make it like an AMA bike. So, I don't really see the distinction between what Buell has done and any other manufacture. Infact I belive graves motorsports will build you a track bike for around $30,000 if you call them, and that would be the same bike Ben Bostrom rides with your suspension setup.
Thank you very much for the reply. My 1st problem with the 1125r is that it is rotax powered. The frame is Erik Buell. Harley has no real claim to either in my opinion. I think that it is sad that Harley could not provide a competitive engine for it. Second, the 1125r is not a production bike. What happened to the 2000 bike minimum produced for public sale to be eligible to race? Even if it is in poland.
The XR1200 series is only XR1200's. How can anyone call that a Harley win? A rider win yes, but not a Harley win. I don't know, maybe it is a popular series. I don't see how any manufacturer can jump up and down saying, "we won" when they were the only manufacturer in the race.
I have been looking online, but it has been difficult to find anything with references listed.
afterhours
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the problem with the Buell is two-fold:
1. In Daytona Sportbike they let the 1125r compete with 600cc sportbikes. apparently the Buells need an engine tice the size of the japanese bikes...(but the Italians don't because they race the 848cc bike)
2. In american Superbike they let the 1125RR (with modified airbox,intake tract,valves and cams and more compression) run with non-modified bikes from japan....if the japanese bikes showed with the same mods they would be DQ'd.
the AMA ruined Dirt-track when instead of telling Harley to build a competetive bike, they outlawed the multi cylinder monsters the japanese were making from TZ700's and the Kawasaki triples....
the NHRA ruined dragracing when it decided to re-write the rules and allow H-D to build 2500cc that shared no common parts with any HD ever made.....while everybody else had to use OEM based GS and KZ type engines....
why is it that the ducati's can dominate world superbike, so much that Honda built its own twin because it got tired of losing......but HD and Buell cannot even compete on an even playing field?
1. In Daytona Sportbike they let the 1125r compete with 600cc sportbikes. apparently the Buells need an engine tice the size of the japanese bikes...(but the Italians don't because they race the 848cc bike)
2. In american Superbike they let the 1125RR (with modified airbox,intake tract,valves and cams and more compression) run with non-modified bikes from japan....if the japanese bikes showed with the same mods they would be DQ'd.
the AMA ruined Dirt-track when instead of telling Harley to build a competetive bike, they outlawed the multi cylinder monsters the japanese were making from TZ700's and the Kawasaki triples....
the NHRA ruined dragracing when it decided to re-write the rules and allow H-D to build 2500cc that shared no common parts with any HD ever made.....while everybody else had to use OEM based GS and KZ type engines....
why is it that the ducati's can dominate world superbike, so much that Honda built its own twin because it got tired of losing......but HD and Buell cannot even compete on an even playing field?
All good points. When did NHRA put these rule into effect and what series? I believe the prostock class have to use specified cases. The tz750 was banned by FIM also.
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BUSA GHOSTRIDER
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I don't believe that buell was the only liter bike that raced with the 600 class. If I remember correctly Aprilia raced there RSV with the 600's and that is also an Italian made liter bike.
BUSA GHOSTRIDER
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wv, your trying to draw me into the "is Buell a Harley debate" and I told you I'm not going to go there. 
BUSA GHOSTRIDER
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As far as I am concerned, and believe me this is only my opinion, the 1125R is a production bike. It is still for sale here in the US so I am sure it will meet the 2000 bike minimum. You make a valid point about the Rotax motor in the 1125R, but once again I still don't consider any of the bikes you purchase off the showroom floor an "AMA race bike" so the stretch to a different motor that is more streetable doesn't phase me too much. Just my 2 cents!
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dragonbusa
Registered
I believe the nhra limits the jap bikes to 1700cc and the buels and vrods are like 2300cc can you sat payola!
I believe the nhra limits the jap bikes to 1700cc and the buels and vrods are like 2300cc can you sat payola!
Pro street is even more of a displacement gap. Harleys can have up to 3278cc while Suzuki and Kawasaki are limited to 1655 for 4 valve engines and 1753cc for 2 valve engines.
I did not know Buells were still publicly available. Thank you very much for your input. My problem is not with Rotax, but more with the fact that Harley didn't make it. In my opinion, America has great engineers with lots of ingenuity. Why could Harley not build a competitive engine. I am just a bit disappointed.
A Busa delivers 2.37 hp per cu inch.
A Corvette delivers 1.14 hp per cu inch.
A Toyota Corolla delivers 1.16 hp per cu inch.
A Harley delivers 0.78 hp per cu inch.
Harleys are not for racing, handling or performance, they are for clinging to the old American lifestyle, show, fashion, HOG USA and its chapters. Amazing, but it works and makes more money than most others.
Mucho politics in every form of racing. Every manufacturer/owner/team is looking to get a rule tweak in their favor. Comes down to what the sanctioning body stands to gain/lose by providing them.
The Buell running in the 600 class was a blatant disregard of the AMA rules, but DMG wanted them in so they were in. That was that. The production Buell is belt drive, the AMA race RR version runs a chain is almost twice the displacement and had a HP to wieght advantage. Honda and Kawi pulled out, in part by Buell being allowed in. Kevin Cameron wrote a good article about that situation.
I think the bottom line is, The AMA is an American Series. They want an American made M/C involved. Problem is that the only one around isn't competative so they write the rules around getting them in and giving them an advantage.
The Buell running in the 600 class was a blatant disregard of the AMA rules, but DMG wanted them in so they were in. That was that. The production Buell is belt drive, the AMA race RR version runs a chain is almost twice the displacement and had a HP to wieght advantage. Honda and Kawi pulled out, in part by Buell being allowed in. Kevin Cameron wrote a good article about that situation.
I think the bottom line is, The AMA is an American Series. They want an American made M/C involved. Problem is that the only one around isn't competative so they write the rules around getting them in and giving them an advantage.
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