Hard/emergency braking
- Thread starter Ybatx
- Start date
Must not have much background. Most pro racers do not even use their rear brakes. Oh well, continue whatever brakes you like but do not tell people to us. You can cut the sarcasm though. It doesn't make you look smarter, actually quite the opposite.
I am just merely here to educate the individuals asking about what they should actually do which is stay off the rear brake in emergency and quick braking. It creates too many problems no matter what your "experience" is.
The main issue is that when a rider is used to always using his brake, his survival reaction kicks in when he panics and has to brake. His muscle memory tells him to use the rear brake but since he panics, he mashes on the rear and bad things happen. The fact you say you know so much and defend you argument is astonishing.
It's funny how you say you can outbrake me like I care
All I care about is people not wrecking because of improper use of their rear brake and a fear of their front brake.
Superbike School :: Braking Bike
If you can afford it, I suggest their courses to everyone. It is an eye opener for sure. The California Superbike School truly is amazing because of how well they teach. It takes so much braking to lock a front wheel you would be surprised.
If you can afford it, I suggest their courses to everyone. It is an eye opener for sure. The California Superbike School truly is amazing because of how well they teach. It takes so much braking to lock a front wheel you would be surprised.
MelodicMetalGod
Registered
Lookie there! The OP with only 16 posts has managed to glean the gist of all the banter, in spite of the "do or don't use rear brake" arguments.
Ybatx, well done! You're obviously a smart cookie and have recognized the important bits that have been shared here.
PS: BTW, Welcome!
I've been peeking at this thread just to see who has a grasp on braking and who is stabbing in the dark. So far Russell has the best grasp on braking. Russell is absolutely correct. If you are using your front brake properly on a sport bike (Clean dry pavement only) the rear brake is totally wortless. If you are dragging your rear brake to help you burn off speed then you are not maximizing your front brake.
However, there are exceptions in situations where traction is limited (Gravel, wet, rough pavement, shinko tires :-) )
The key is knowing or at least having an idea of how much traction is available at any given time you apply the brakes.
Hard braking is "THE" most under used and understood aspect of motorcycling, yet it is by far the most important. Knowing how to burn off speed at the maximum rate can save your life.
I just finished two days at a performance riding school with a world class rider where braking was a big issue. Never once was the rear brake mentioned as a useful tool in burning off speed. The only place you'll get instruction on rear brake use is at parking lot speeds from the MSF course where the skill level of their students is extremely low.
It doesn't matter where you go on the internet there is so much bogus information tossed around it makes me wonder how any of us survive to reach a safe skill level.
Keep in mind, "Braking" is a learned skill. Don't be afraid to practice, it just may save your bacon one day!
However, there are exceptions in situations where traction is limited (Gravel, wet, rough pavement, shinko tires :-) )
The key is knowing or at least having an idea of how much traction is available at any given time you apply the brakes.
Hard braking is "THE" most under used and understood aspect of motorcycling, yet it is by far the most important. Knowing how to burn off speed at the maximum rate can save your life.
I just finished two days at a performance riding school with a world class rider where braking was a big issue. Never once was the rear brake mentioned as a useful tool in burning off speed. The only place you'll get instruction on rear brake use is at parking lot speeds from the MSF course where the skill level of their students is extremely low.
It doesn't matter where you go on the internet there is so much bogus information tossed around it makes me wonder how any of us survive to reach a safe skill level.
Keep in mind, "Braking" is a learned skill. Don't be afraid to practice, it just may save your bacon one day!
so no trail braking?
Trail braking is a misunderstood term, it has nothing to to with the rear brake. It refers to "TRAILING OFF THE Brakes as you lean further over and closer to the apex of the turn, as your contact patch is lessening as you lean further over, so you must 'TRAIL OFF" the lever so you don't overwhelm the tire's ability to grip.....
So a world class rider doesn't use rear brakes when trail braking?
SKnight
Registered
I thought the general rule was that racers would sell rear brakes for scrap. During truly planned cornering events using the rear isn't necessary for a couple of reasons but mainly that they're braking so hard that their rear tire is genuinely in very loose contact with the pavement, just enough contact to maintain directional control. In short all of their rear traction points are used up. Plus they have infinitely better brakes on the front, better suspension, better tires and I won't even try to touch the talent they have. But I wasn't aware that we're talking about racing in this thread.
You're running in two different directions here but I'll address one at a time. First part in bold, where in creation did you pull that out of? Where did I even remotely suggest that at all? Closest mention of a dirtbike type of braking is that if, I qualified it with if, you did lock a tire knowing when to release it because if you know when to release, it will keep you off your head. That's the closest mention. Don't falsely add to what I have said. Second, not in bold, so you're saying that with the rear tire in the air you can pull off a push push type swerve? I'd like to see it. Fact is with one tire off the ground, front or rear, you've lost directional control. Can it be done? Sure, leaning is turning, but could you change direction if that kid you're braking over changes direction? Not until that other tire hits the ground.
Been there, done that. You believe that I'm just pulling this out of my ass?
You know why people ask questions? To become better riders. You know why people answer? To help them get there. I want this guy to be the best he can be. The best riders I know make very good use of the rear brake in all conditions. This guy doesn't have much riding under his belt. I'm hoping he'll learn proper techniques before getting used to poor ones and then has to unlearn bad habits. Old bad habits tend to turn up at the worst times.
Know what's so damned funny about this? I'll guarantee that the same conversation has been had on HD type forums about the front brake. Just don't do it man, I saw a guy crash once cause he used that front brake. I don't bother with it, just to hold me on a hill when I have to put my right foot down. If you're in a bad situation and grab the front brake MOST RIDERS will bust their ass.
And there, just like here, nothing will change.
GNBRETT
Registered
I dont know ANY Harley riders that think that or is that what YOU think????
SKnight
Registered
Got plenty of background believe it or not, been involved in daily use performance levels and bottom up race car setup. Not my first rodeo at all.Must not have much background. Most pro racers do not even use their rear brakes. Oh well, continue whatever brakes you like but do not tell people to us. You can cut the sarcasm though. It doesn't make you look smarter, actually quite the opposite.
I am just merely here to educate the individuals asking about what they should actually do which is stay off the rear brake in emergency and quick braking. It creates too many problems no matter what your "experience" is.
The main issue is that when a rider is used to always using his brake, his survival reaction kicks in when he panics and has to brake. His muscle memory tells him to use the rear brake but since he panics, he mashes on the rear and bad things happen. The fact you say you know so much and defend you argument is astonishing.
It's funny how you say you can outbrake me like I care
All I care about is people not wrecking because of improper use of their rear brake and a fear of their front brake.
I didn't issue a challenge, I merely said you're leaving an important piece of the puzzle in the box. I use that piece and will save myself several feet of stopping distance.
And in case you didn't notice, you started the sarcasm, I just answered it because I figured that's all you'd understand.
Oddly enough we're after similar goals. I want people to gain a few feet of stopping distance by properly using their rear brake and proper use of their front brake. Could make all the difference between a close call and a ride in the well lit box.
SKnight
Registered
I know several including the guy that busted his ass in front of me a couple of years ago. "I knew better than to grab that front brake, damn thing is what cause me to crash." What he said word for word while I was kneeling beside him blood pouring out of his hands and face. Remember, I had a Buell for a couple of years, I've spent a bit of time hanging around HD dealers and nary a single trip to the dealer went by without getting questioned about braking, why the front rotor was so big compared to the small rear setup, etc.
I don't exactly know how you came to the conclusion that I think that way if you've read this thread at all. I support using the rear brake but never once said a word about the front being bad, dangerous or even iffy. Hell I use the front on my dirt bike tearing up woods courses at sometimes 50MPH+ so that's not correct about me at all.
GNBRETT
Registered
the OP asked about hard EMERGENCY braking. NOT overall braking. apples to oranges.
the average rider can only concentrate on the use of one brake in an emergency braking situation.
between the front and rear brakes on a motorcycle the one to pay most attention to in an emergency is the front brake period! NOT both like you assume.
if you try to use both brakes in an emergency neither will work the way you want them to. you simply can't concentrate fully on both brakes at the same time. the mind doesnt work like that. at least for a novice rider that is and probably for an experienced rider as well.
in an emergancy you have to concentrate on using either the front or the back brake and since the front brake gives up to like 80% or better of your braking power in some bikes it makes sense to concentrate on the front brake only.
StromBusa
Registered
U guys take to braking discussions just like oil & politics...I don't think Ybatx is racing Moto-GT, just <wisely> asking for some advice prior to crash #3. Poor guy. I don't know anyone that has removed the rear brake for weight savings due to it's utter uslessness ??? However, on My Busa ~95% of the stopping power is in the front, and I use the rear only about 1% of the time. However on my V-Strom I use up a set of rears prior to a set of front shoes (surprised me the first time). And go even more to dirt, say skidding down a hillclimb, I would not start without one. Relying on the rear is a bad idea, but crunching the front on wet turn or some gravel & you're going for a ride. Like I said before, he is better to try & avoid panic braking situations as are we all.
He may also be using his rear brakes, but the term is about TRAILING OFF the brakes, not trail as in rear....
I should have separated my comments better. The part about riding like a dirtbike was from another response, not yours. I haven't learned yet how to separate quotes like you have.
The point I apparently was unsucessful in making was that most riders cannot handle both brakes even in the best of conditions and if it's going to be one or the other, learn the front one for emergencies before you start thinking about adding the rear (of course, conditions such as sand or gravel negate that to a large extent).
The good news is the OP understands he will learn thru increased, incremental practice which will give him the opportunity
SKnight
Registered
I'm quoting you to show how it can be done, pretty easy once you see it. I'm going to leave the last ] bracket off the quotes so that the forum won't complete the quote.
[QUOTE=skydivr;2943236I should have separated my comments better. The part about riding like a dirtbike was from another response, not yours. I haven't learned yet how to separate quotes like you have.[/QUOTE
Copy and paste the [/QUOTE and place it at the end of what you want to separate.
Then when you're ready to start the next portion you copy and paste this part; [QUOTE=skydivr;2943236 and the forum will split it up.
[QUOTE=skydivr;2943236The point I apparently was unsucessful in making was that most riders cannot handle both brakes even in the best of conditions and if it's going to be one or the other, learn the front one for emergencies before you start thinking about adding the rear (of course, conditions such as sand or gravel negate that to a large extent).[/QUOTE
Like I said once you see it there's nothing to it.
To answer all above, I am talking emergency braking. I'm talking braking from 170+ with a hard corner lined with a tire wall getting really big in the faceshield. It's all different, but the same. Once you learn good habits and proper use then you can vary to match the situation at hand. As you practice more, get more intimate with your machine and gain the most valuable component, experience, you can match what you need very well and get it right. From a left turner that really wasn't a problem to hauling down on a track you know how much to apply where and when.
I want this guy to be more than most riders. Most riders hop on a bike, think they ride the **** out of it, call slower riders idiots and faster riders dangerous, all without really learning how it works or what's going on. If our OP practices, learns what really does work, for him and his machine, he could be the next Rossi or Hayden. But if he's a better rider and avoids number 3 I'll be more than happy.
[QUOTE=skydivr;2943236I should have separated my comments better. The part about riding like a dirtbike was from another response, not yours. I haven't learned yet how to separate quotes like you have.[/QUOTE
Copy and paste the [/QUOTE and place it at the end of what you want to separate.
Then when you're ready to start the next portion you copy and paste this part; [QUOTE=skydivr;2943236 and the forum will split it up.
[QUOTE=skydivr;2943236The point I apparently was unsucessful in making was that most riders cannot handle both brakes even in the best of conditions and if it's going to be one or the other, learn the front one for emergencies before you start thinking about adding the rear (of course, conditions such as sand or gravel negate that to a large extent).[/QUOTE
Like I said once you see it there's nothing to it.
To answer all above, I am talking emergency braking. I'm talking braking from 170+ with a hard corner lined with a tire wall getting really big in the faceshield. It's all different, but the same. Once you learn good habits and proper use then you can vary to match the situation at hand. As you practice more, get more intimate with your machine and gain the most valuable component, experience, you can match what you need very well and get it right. From a left turner that really wasn't a problem to hauling down on a track you know how much to apply where and when.
I want this guy to be more than most riders. Most riders hop on a bike, think they ride the **** out of it, call slower riders idiots and faster riders dangerous, all without really learning how it works or what's going on. If our OP practices, learns what really does work, for him and his machine, he could be the next Rossi or Hayden. But if he's a better rider and avoids number 3 I'll be more than happy.
Im aware, poking at tuf.... Thanks for school though lol
You can poke at me all you want. I'm tuf, I can take it. The bottom line is, you are a new riders worst nightmare. Full of all sorts of bogus BS that some who don't know any better may believe. I will ware out more brake pads this season than you will wear out in your life time. And you want to lecture me on braking. Please, spare me!
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