Hard/emergency braking

Ybatx

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I (very sadly) have only a GT250r for now, but it pays to learn the skills before you need them. - My next bike WILL be a hayabusa :)

What do you all do to stop from going busa fast? I know there's probably a certain way to do it, but i've heard a few different ways (for bikes in general)


Obviously you need to unpin the throttle and apply the brakes, while looking where you need to go and shifting down.
That aside (and assuming you were at the correct speed, for some of the time anyway) what is it you do or don't do?

I remember seeing somewhere that we aren't able to concentrate properly on multiple things at a time,
and heard that locking the rear wheel removes one thing, and only loses something like 10% of your total braking.
Sounds pretty dodgy to me, but I don't have a lot of experience with only 6 months under my belt (and 2 crashes...)
 
Proper emergency braking skills will serve you at all speeds regardless of the bike involved. However all bikes behave differently under max effort braking even when it's the same year, make and model because of differences in wear, has the owner swapped pads for a better performing set, etc. so it behooves you to have a parking lot practice session with any bike you own. It also pays to go out every few thousand miles or three times a year and practice just because it keeps you sharp.

First things first, do a few hard stops from 20MPH, then 30MPH, then 40MPH. Not full emergency stops, just harder than normal. Now do the same thing at those speeds but stop faster. During this exercise remember it's a progressive squeeze on the levers, not a grab. That sudden grab is what locks brakes instantly because the weight can't transfer properly and the tire doesn't get to really dig in. You start pulling the lever in a 1...2...3...4...5... manner normally. During emergency braking it's the same concept but faster, 1.2.3.4.5. The trick is to start at one instead of five as starting at five can put you on your head. Also despite what you'll hear in this thread and else where use both brakes. If the rear tire is on the ground it can help you stop. If the rear tire is in the air then you've lost most of your directional control plus you now have the added issue of the bike trying to pivot around on you. The trick is not locking the rear which is why we practice.

Now that you're stopping pretty well at 40MPH lets do a quick experiment. Ride along at 15MPH, straight and on level ground. Put your hand on the front brake lever and grab it hard as you can then let it go very quickly. This is to determine where your tire lockup point is. The goal is a very quick chirp of the front tire but you release it before it can cause you to fall over. Once you know at what point the tire locks up you'll have a good idea of what to expect later.

Now repeat the earlier 20, 30, 40 exercise but make it your absolute maximum effort braking. Stop very quickly, then try to stop quicker. Work your way up to just short of lockup or losing control. Take your time and work up to this level slowly as there's no need to dump the bike.

From here practice makes perfect. If you practice this enough it will become muscle memory, in other words you'll automatically apply the correct amount of brake pressure right off the bat before you get a chance to completely process what's going on. Also do the above practice with the levers covered and uncovered. In other words if you have your hand and foot sitting on the levers, say while riding through a neighborhood or other area that may need quick brake action, you'll initially hit the brakes differently than if the levers are uncovered. When you hit the brakes with the levers uncovered now your hand and foot have a running start and will change the initial brake hit considerably.

Stopping from real speed is the same, but different. It involves being smooth, ready for the bike to do things requiring you to react very quickly and being very aware of your surroundings. Plus you have to practice braking at those speeds just like your parking lot practice. That's why we promote the use of track days.

So how do you stop safely? The same way you get to Carnegie Hall. Practice, Practice, Practice.

If you don't mind me asking, what were the circumstances and reasons behind your crashes?
 
I use both under emergency braking, and have had the arse slip out under braking and down shifting, never had a problem getting off the brake or pulling the clutch to right the bike. I worry about locking the front. Don't know if I could recover from that. When braking hard the arse is gonna get very light if not lose contact. It's a skill that should be practiced, along with avoiding emergency stops to start with. Ride smart.
 
Always use both brakes...always. I learned that from motorcross racing back in the day! I don't worry about locking the front much, very hard to do on the busa with the extra weight and like the person above me said, if you practice the progressive squeez the tires have a chance to bite and the front suspension has a chance to load up, thus almost eliminating the chance of a flip. The rear tire is a different animal, it likes to lock occasionally under emergency braking, if this happens LEAVE IT LOCKED UP!!! Wearing a littlle spot in your tire is much better than high siding on your bike due to the rear tire regaining traction while you are sliding a little sideways. A while back going to SPORTCUSTOMS house, following my GPS, my street suddenly turned into a dirt road! I managed to go from 80 to 0 very quickly thanks to practice, and proper braking procedures, and kept it upright despite, yes, the rear tire getting locked! :beerchug:
 
do you have MSF (Motorcycle Safety Foundation) courses available near you? Highly/strongly recommend you attend one so that all the tips above will make sense. One tidbit that has been stuck in my brain: at around 60 mph, your bike is moving at approx 90 feet/second. This helps me "decide" when and where I SHOULD NOT go fast.
 
Wow, tough one. Rule # 1 is do not panic, and the rule after that is practice. You can lock either or both brakes with bad results. Must remain aware of surface conditions like wet concrete, smooth concrete, etc... Best advise is to avoid emergency braking by not following close, driving defensively, staying off roads after dark when the deer are moving... Busa will haul down nice with a gentle squeeze on the front and a little weight on the rear. The key is to be in control. Locking the front will take you out very quickly, too much rear can induce a scary "buck" (not sure on Busa as never happened with that bike). Get familiar with the brakes, when a surprise happens, revert to the best braking you can muster under the conditions. Locking and sliding will not stop you as quickly, and messes up your stuff. If you get into the wrong situation "suprise wise" you are just screwed. Pay attention to everything and every potential, situational awareness. :rulez:
 
Cheers for the tips guys. It's food for thought and something to get out and work on.

Do you apply the rear before the front or both at the same time, but just lightly before squeezing them both on?
I generally put both on, then 'apply' the brakes.

I haven't locked the rear into a skid yet, but I would (try to) leave it locked. Not sure how I can really practice that safely though.
Over here in NZ we don't have the MSF courses. There are a few others to choose from, but nothing that is as thorough as what you have with that.
Time to move over there I guess :p


As far as the crashes, one was a tip at ~5mph. Still not sure how it happened. Going into a driveway, turning left (we ride on the left side of the road here).
The other was on a curve (right) hit the pegs (not on my gt) and then I looked at the curb >.> so much for selling that later on that day...




Thought I'd just add this in as well. My rear mono-shock is stuffed at the moment. Bounces back really fast, instead of the nice slow recovery.
Does anyone know what kind of effect that would have on hard braking? It makes for some interesting cornering on some corners with rough surfaces.
 
The other was on a curve (right) hit the pegs (not on my gt) and then I looked at the curb >.> so much for selling that later on that day...

knowing how to correctly do an emergency brake in a blind/decreasing radius turn IS/WAS the best lesson that I learned from riding courses thru the years. Looking THROUGH the turn (and avoiding Target Fixation, term for what happened to you above) and proper way to lean also saved my heinie many times
 
Yep...what they said. Very good advice from all. SKnight pretty much gave you was taught at the MSF course that I took in March, for emergency braking. Also you might want to see if your can get a copy of Proficient Motorcycling, Th eUltimate Guide to Riding Well, by David Hough. He helped start the MSF movement. It was a good read for this novice rider.

Good Luck
 
The shock can have an effect because it doesn't control how fast the rear "Pops up" and can contribute to an unbalance.

I forgot to mention that you need to lock the rear the same way as I said to lock the front. Try it, then very quickly turn it loose. Gives you a feel and a baseline to work with.

Depends on the conditions but in normal stops I tend to apply both more or less evenly at the same time. At really low speeds such as slow speed maneuvering practice or dirt/grass it's rear only for the most part. At high speeds it's front first then rear to balance but I'm on the rear about as fast as you can say one two. In an emergency it's front first then rear to assist once the weight starts to transfer and plant the front tire. I apply the rear second because once the front is digging in the rear gets light, once that's more or less done I apply the rear until I can "Feel" it's on the verge of lockup. You can hear it starting to drag the tire, you can feel the change as you're approaching the traction limit.

That feel gets back to practice makes perfect.

I have practiced in wet conditions so I can get a feel for those conditions but frankly I haven't in quite awhile. I should though, it's more critical due to the compromised traction.
 
I use both under emergency braking, and have had the arse slip out under braking and down shifting, never had a problem getting off the brake or pulling the clutch to right the bike. I worry about locking the front. Don't know if I could recover from that. When braking hard the arse is gonna get very light if not lose contact. It's a skill that should be practiced, along with avoiding emergency stops to start with. Ride smart.

Locking the front does not mean you will go down. This is why the CSS has the brake bike to teach people to get over the fear of the front brake. The rear brake is nothing but trouble in a quick stop situation no matter what anyone claims on here. We have had a dozen threads about braking. It takes ALOT of brake to get your front tire to lock up unless you are on sand. Even wet conditions, it takes more than you think.

I have personally watched a rider use the rear brake in emergency stopping and take out 3 other riders because he crashed by locking the rear. Just sayin'
 
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I suggest reading the book, twist of the wrist 2. I believe it has a section on braking in there.
 
Locking the front does not mean you will go down. This is why the CSS has the brake bike to teach people to get over the fear of the front brake. The rear brake is nothing but trouble in a quick stop situation no matter what anyone claims on here. We have had a dozen threads about braking. It takes ALOT of brake to get your front tire to lock up unless you are on sand. Even wet conditions, it takes more than you think.

I have personally watched a rider use the rear brake in emergency stopping and take out 3 other riders because he crashed by locking the rear. Just sayin'
That's why we practice proper emergency braking, so we don't lock either one.

If we go out on identical bikes side by side in an emergency braking situation I'll stop quicker every time, I promise. I've seen guys dump their bike right in front of me because they locked the front, that doesn't make it a bad thing. Same goes for the rears.
 
Locking the front does not mean you will go down. This is why the CSS has the brake bike to teach people to get over the fear of the front brake. The rear brake is nothing but trouble in a quick stop situation no matter what anyone claims on here. We have had a dozen threads about braking. It takes ALOT of brake to get your front tire to lock up unless you are on sand. Even wet conditions, it takes more than you think.

I have personally watched a rider use the rear brake in emergency stopping and take out 3 other riders because he crashed by locking the rear. Just sayin'

Since you said that "on here", we must assume that your claim has the same value as all others "on here". Yes? ;) :laugh:
 
That's why we practice proper emergency braking, so we don't lock either one.

If we go out on identical bikes side by side in an emergency braking situation I'll stop quicker every time, I promise. I've seen guys dump their bike right in front of me because they locked the front, that doesn't make it a bad thing. Same goes for the rears.

I would suggest that it ultimately comes down to experience in a any given situation. If the rider has the requisite experience with the bike, the environment and the scenario, the rear brake is tool not to be overlooked. If the rider lacks experience with any of those, bad things can happen. Riders that practice braking with both brakes on various surfaces in various conditions and scenrious will generally fair much better than those who do not make the time or effort to practice.
 
That's why we practice proper emergency braking, so we don't lock either one.

If we go out on identical bikes side by side in an emergency braking situation I'll stop quicker every time, I promise. I've seen guys dump their bike right in front of me because they locked the front, that doesn't make it a bad thing. Same goes for the rears.

You do understand that when you brake quick the ENTIRE weight and momentum of the bike goes to the front tire? The rear brake is rendered useless in a quick stop. Especially if you begin to do an endo? I guess you can "air brake" :laugh:

It is a shame so many people are scared of that front brake. Its not near as dangerous as that rear.
 
You do understand that when you brake quick the ENTIRE weight and momentum of the bike goes to the front tire? The rear brake is rendered useless in a quick stop. Especially if you begin to do an endo? I guess you can "air brake" :laugh:

It is a shame so many people are scared of that front brake. Its not near as dangerous as that rear.
Given my background I'd dare say I understand the mechanics of weight transfer under various conditions better than you, so yes I understand.

The entire weight doesn't shift until the rear tire is off the ground. Until then the rear tire can help with braking and stop you faster than not using it at all. Once the rear tire leaves the ground you lose your directional control. But I guess you can "air steer" right?

Fact is you don't understand what's actually going on in a controlled emergency stop. Maintaining proper control is a cocktail of keeping the tires on the ground, actuating both brakes to their maximum effort without locking either wheel, being able to modulate pressure to said wheel if it locks and when to modulate that pressure in the event the tires come out of line. Plus how do all those linked system bikes stop so well? It's a shame so many riders are afraid of the rear brake, it's not dangerous if you know how to use it.

Do it your way all you wish but I said it earlier and I'll say it again. I'll stop faster and with more control with two brakes than you will with one. No, I'm not going to meet you anywhere to prove it. No, I don't care that you think I'm wrong. Yes, I know you're the man and know better than I do, yadda yadda.
 
Are we REALLY going to argue this again?

Knight: If - and this is a HUGE IF - you have truly mastered the limits of the rear brake, you may be correct Sir, but most riders except those on the AMA, WSBK and MotoGP circuit will lock it up and bounce their azz long before they get to a full stop. Otherwise you'd better give the rear a healthy dose of respect and stay off it. Locking it up all the way and riding like a dirtbike does you ZERO good and I'm surprised someone would even suggest that as you have now lost all steering control once the rear leaves the ground. If you don't believe me, take it out on a trackday and give it a try - even in the best of conditions of tire and surface and a PREPLANNED hard braking situation, touching the rear brake FOR MOST RIDERS is a monumentally huge mistake. You will find NO TRACK SCHOOL IN THE US that teaches NOVICE riders to try to use the rear brake in the beginning. The street survial schools being taught to new riders allow riders use of the rear brake, because they aren't usually going fast enough for that radical a maneuver. On the street putting around, I'll use the rear, sure, but not when riding it REALLY hard.
 
What is seems to me from most of this is that without practice, you will not brake as well as if you had put time and effort into learning it.
Both brakes together are better than just one, but locking or improper braking could be more dangerous than properly braking with just the front.

I've pulled the back wheel up twice. Once on the highway, at about 40kmh (20mph?) and once at 5kmh - to check if it'd work. It does.
Grabbing the brake at nearly any speed will flick you over if you slam it on. Progressive braking doesn't do that.

Well, I'll practice anyway. Just one, then the other, and both together.
 
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