twisty's ?

kennym4

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I've been trying to get better in the twisty stuff, and I guess I'm probably on the wrong bike to learn how to do it wright. If I can see most of the turn I'm fine, but in blind corners I'm having a lot of trouble. I don't know if it's a mental block, or something. I' never push it too hard, because I want to make it home, and don't have leather pants YET. And God forbid a car coming the other way over the line. I've been going into blind turns, and finding that I'm going way too slow (better than too hot I guess).

I'm not trying to use the back roads as a track, just would like to be a little (well MORE) smooth.

My question is....What do you do in a blind turn ?



THANKS
 
I am guessing these "blind" turns are fairly new to you. Perhaps, ride those turns more often (slow and safe) and you will eventually go faster and smoother as you become more familiar with those blind turns.

I go thru twisties on my way to work every day (in a vanpool though) and I almost "do not think" about the turns anymore and take them almost instinctively (I know which ones are decreasing radius turns, which ones are long, downhill sweeps, etc.)
 
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Yes, I'm talking about a road I don't know. Most roads around here have recommended speed limit signs for turns so I can usually tell how sharp they are by that, but not all roads have them. But I've been with people (some from here) on roads they didn't know, and they could fly on them. I guess it's just a mental thing with me ??
 
I am a lot like you when riding a new road...slow and safe, no need to compete or impress. Ride your own ride...always!
P.S. I almost always volunteer to take the last spot on group rides, because I know I will be slow and as you put it I want to make it home :thumbsup:
 
I am a lot like you when riding a new road...slow and safe, no need to compete or impress. Ride your own ride...always!
P.S. I almost always volunteer to take the last spot on group rides, because I know I will be slow and as you put it I want to make it home :thumbsup:

That's funny, I ALWAYS volunteer to take the last spot too. At first I did it because I didn't have mirrors, but I'm just used to it now.
 
I've been trying to get better in the twisty stuff, and I guess I'm probably on the wrong bike to learn how to do it wright. If I can see most of the turn I'm fine, but in blind corners I'm having a lot of trouble. I don't know if it's a mental block, or something. I' never push it too hard, because I want to make it home, and don't have leather pants YET. And God forbid a car coming the other way over the line. I've been going into blind turns, and finding that I'm going way too slow (better than too hot I guess).

I'm not trying to use the back roads as a track, just would like to be a little (well MORE) smooth.

My question is....What do you do in a blind turn ?
THANKS

Hi Kenny...don't make a mistake saying that Busa is not the right bike to cornering,bending and to have fun on twisty roads...My dear friend Lucio is a professional suspension engineer and said that 'Busa is much better than many other bikes in cornering...Much better than ZZR1400 for example...Yes ZX14 is easier but, while increasing cornering speed The Busa is more rigorous...

Do you know the meaning of COUNTERSTEERING?
you have to push forward the handlebar near to the direction of the bend...and the bike will bend immediately...you will notice that the bike bends UNDER you ...cornering...:thumbsup:

It's a helpful trick in blind corner...

If you make more twisty than straight roads , you MUST raise the rear and try a > K fork springs (or better hyperpro springs) and your bike will astonish you when you will bend!
 
Make a concerted effort to actually turn your head and look though the corner, by that I mean watching the vanishing point.


What follows in bold is a cut and paste from;
http://www.rideforever.co.nz/ride_smart/control_cornering.html#two

Before deciding how fast a corner can be taken, you'll need to judge the radius. Although this is largely a matter of experience, there's a technique known as watching the 'vanishing-point' which gives a very good idea of the radius of even a blind corner.
The vanishing-point is the most distant point on the outside of an approaching corner where either the centre-line or the carriageway side of your lane, as appropriate, disappears from view.
If this point seems to be coming closer to you then the corner radius is tightening, and vice versa.


left_bend.jpg


right_bend.jpg


Blind corners are where the vanishing-point technique proves invaluable. If the distance to the vanishing-point seems to be decreasing you need to reduce speed so that it appears to remain constant or increases. When the vanishing-point remains at a constant distance, then your speed is matched comfortably to the corner radius. Likewise, if distance starts to increase, this indicates that speed can be too because the corner radius is opening.

If a road surface is cresting or dipping through a corner this will affect the vanishing-point, but the principle of adjusting your speed so that the vanishing-point remains under your control still applies.

Because the turning radius is smaller on a vision-line, more banking angle will be required. Your entry speed will also be slower than for a racing-line. Where you can see all the way through a corner there's no vanishing-point as such. Proceed through the corner with caution.


cheers
ken
 
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Make a concerted effort to actually turn your head and look though the corner, by that I mean watching the vanishing point.


What follows in bold is a cut and paste from;
Ride Forever - Cornering

Before deciding how fast a corner can be taken, you'll need to judge the radius. Although this is largely a matter of experience, there's a technique known as watching the 'vanishing-point' which gives a very good idea of the radius of even a blind corner.
The vanishing-point is the most distant point on the outside of an approaching corner where either the centre-line or the carriageway side of your lane, as appropriate, disappears from view.
If this point seems to be coming closer to you then the corner radius is tightening, and vice versa.


left_bend.jpg


right_bend.jpg


Blind corners are where the vanishing-point technique proves invaluable. If the distance to the vanishing-point seems to be decreasing you need to reduce speed so that it appears to remain constant or increases. When the vanishing-point remains at a constant distance, then your speed is matched comfortably to the corner radius. Likewise, if distance starts to increase, this indicates that speed can be too because the corner radius is opening.

If a road surface is cresting or dipping through a corner this will affect the vanishing-point, but the principle of adjusting your speed so that the vanishing-point remains under your control still applies.

Because the turning radius is smaller on a vision-line, more banking angle will be required. Your entry speed will also be slower than for a racing-line. Where you can see all the way through a corner there's no vanishing-point as such. Proceed through the corner with caution.


cheers
ken
GOOD info !
 
Hi Kenny...don't make a mistake saying that Busa is not the right bike to cornering,bending and to have fun on twisty roads...My dear friend Lucio is a professional suspension engineer and said that 'Busa is much better than many other bikes in cornering...Much better than ZZR1400 for example...Yes ZX14 is easier but, while increasing cornering speed The Busa is more rigorous...

Do you know the meaning of COUNTERSTEERING?
you have to push forward the handlebar near to the direction of the bend...and the bike will bend immediately...you will notice that the bike bends UNDER you ...cornering...:thumbsup:

It's a helpful trick in blind corner...

If you make more twisty than straight roads , you MUST raise the rear and try a > K fork springs (or better hyperpro springs) and your bike will astonish you when you will bend!
I'm not saying the BUSA can't turn, God knows it could handle more than I'm able to throw at it. Just saying it would most likely be better to master on a smaller bike.


And yes I know what counter steering is, can you turn without it ?


I think I need to practice squaring off the corners ?
 
copied this from same place as above, does this make sense to you guys ?


"That race riders' knee-out style you've seen on TV is also a big no-no for road-riding. A controlled environment like a racetrack is a little smoother than your average route home. Any knee contact with the road is hazardous, especially if you're not wearing the protective plastic knee-sliders racers do. Instead, lean your upper body into the turn and even slide your backside across to the inner side of the seat, as long as both feet remain on the footrests, where they can operate the controls."


when they say "inner side of the seat" they're not saying to the outside of the turn (like you would in a u-turn) are they ? Or does the inner mean the inside of the turn (which makes more sense to me), but wouldn't that be the same as getting your knee down ?
 
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this looking through the corner to the vanishing point is how its been explained to me and does work, as always its practice practice practice, i sometimes find my eye being drawn to the apex and have to resist and look forward again to the vanishing point, always ride within my own comfort zone though !! never try to keep up with others.

also keep to the outside of my lane and dont cut in to the apex utill exit of the cormer can be seen, then roll on the power head for apex/exit and power out

aitch:bowdown:
 
when they say "inner side of the seat" they're not saying to the outside of the turn (like you would in a u-turn) are they ? Or does the inner mean the inside of the turn (which makes more sense to me), but wouldn't that be the same as getting your knee down ?

Yes, slide off the low side of the seat a little. You don't have to go as far off as you see the race guys hanging, every little bit helps. Off the seat a little, is better than not at all. You can still shift your body to a lower center of mass without getting your knee anywhere near the pavement. After years of riding without leathers, I've developed a (now bad) habit of tucking that knee up against the bike "out of harms way" even if I'm hanging off the inside quite a bit.
Start working on sliding your butt and upper body off the inside of the bike (get over there before you actually tip into the turn) a little at a time. When your comfortable with a little, hang off a little more. It'll come with practice.
And yes, I go through blind corners slower than the actual corner warrents, even if I know the road well, simply because, around here you never know whats going to be waiting around that turn. If I can see far enough to deal with the speed, I've found (once again, around here) you can almost always take the posted "safe corner speed" sign rating, and double it without running into any problems.
Hopefully some of this helps a little. But as always, ride your own ride, and at a pace YOUR comfortable with.
 
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this looking through the corner to the vanishing point is how its been explained to me and does work, as always its practice practice practice, i sometimes find my eye being drawn to the apex and have to resist and look forward again to the vanishing point, always ride within my own comfort zone though !! never try to keep up with others.

also keep to the outside of my lane and dont cut in to the apex utill exit of the cormer can be seen, then roll on the power head for apex/exit and power out

aitch:bowdown:

Great information, learn something new every day around here
 
And yes, I go through blind corners slower than the actual corner warrents, even if I know the road well, simply because, around here you never know whats going to be waiting around that turn.

Totally agree. Blind corners on public roads are really dangerous and not the place to be showing folks how big your nuts are. I learned my lesson when I was zipping though some roads and came up on a farmer taking his tractor out for a stroll at 25mph on a 65mph road. Had to stand her up and take her into the other lane to get her slowed down fast enough.

Also I would seriously consider getting the leather pants before you experiment with lean angle too much. It doesn't take too much to upset the bike when they are at the edge of the tire. Something as little a rolling off the throttle too hard can cause a loss of traction.

The busa may not be as nimble as the smaller bikes but I think it is a great bike to learn on. I would however have the suspension set up for your weight. It makes a big difference.
 
Without proper gear you are taking a big risk, and your increasing pucker factor is your survivial instincts telling you "this is not a good idea". Proper gear and a trackday or two would be invaluable.
 
Cornering and riding is one thing, you can learn on the Busa like on a 600.....Just set up the suspension, KEY! On a blind turn....Look through the turn as you go, and Do not Over SPEED! slow is smooth smooth is fast....you dont know whats out there...same cornering techniques apply as on other turns BUT its a BLIND TURN...take it easy....they could be some smart guy doing a U turn....stopped.....debris on the road ...who knows....
 
Kenny, I like your attitude. You'll live a long and productive life by taking blind corners slowly.

The advise of looking through a blind corner is a bit humorous :laugh: Why do you suppose it's called a "BLIND CORNER"?

I take blind corners just like you. I square off the corner and don't tip in until I can see through the corner. Then it's tip her on her lips and stood back up quickly.

Following the centerline through a blind corner is like wiping your a$$ with a broken bottle, dangerous as hell!
 
There is an emphasis in some circles on fast 'street' riding. It's the subject of a lot of brag. But the 'blind' corners you reference are a forceful argument against it. Even if you know the road, as you have envisioned already you will never know what is waiting for you around any of these blind turns. Another biker going 'wide' into your lane...a sports car driving 'fast', its two left wheels on or even slightly over the center-line and in your lane. The odds are that these kinds of events will not occur at the same moment you're passing through a particular blind turn...but by those same odds, such an event occurring as you pass through is not impossible.

Approach blind corners and intersections with a great deal of caution, with the thought in mind that 'this is the time something's going to happen', and be prepared to react. The last thing you should be worrying about at a blind place on the street, in my opinion, is how quickly you're going to transit the section. Even worries about being 'smooth' or 'precise' are missing the point. Just getting through such a section unscathed is more than enough as far as accomplishments go. There's been some great advice offered already, about this...

Leathers are a great idea. You'll be thanking your foresight and wisdom for wearing such after a crash--at which time you will never be without such protective gear again. That is, if you weren't convinced about their usefulness before you crash, you will be after.

Go to a track and participate in track days or the like if you want to work on your cornering skills... As someone else said, the track is a 'controlled' environment. If you crash, there are no grills and radiators, or ditches, or trees to contend with, and normally, the track surface (if you stay on the beaten path, at least) will be clean and smooth.

After a crash on the street I attended Keith Code's California (they actually travel around the country) Superbike School Level I training. I also read his books, Twist of The Wrist I and II. I did these things in order to understand 'why' I'd crashed, what mistakes I'd made that lead me to it. When I made my intention known, the instructors were very helpful in pointing out the flaws in my riding style while they taught me the 'art' of cornering. (I'm scheduled for Level II training this Fall). I turn my motorcycle entirely differently now than I did before attending the school. The physics are the same, but that's about it. Not to say CSS is the only road to such understanding. It's not. My point here is to urge you to select a formal path to learn to corner, one that takes place in a controlled environment, overseen by experts who can provide you educated feedback and whose purpose it is to teach you to ride and corner better. You can learn this on your own, but it will take you far longer--and there will be gaps in your understanding--than if you get professional assistance with the task.

In the early 90's I used to ride the Angeles Crest highway here, in SoCal. One day our small group came upon an accident scene. It was a blind corner, such as you describe. Right at the apex there was a car (Mustang) with a smashed-in grill and headlight, and a sport bike (Kawi green), laying on its side on the dirt shoulder. Right in front of the Mustang was a person down on his knees, his hands on the pavement, his helmet (still on his head) resting against the pavement. His visor was up. I remember that clearly. He looked like he was praying with his head pressed to the ground, perhaps like a Muslim at prayers. There was some liquid running down out of his helmet and over the pavement just as there was liquid running from beneath the radiator toward the low side of the road.

It was a very slow corner. The guys who'd been riding with the dude said they were taking it easy. The guy was leading and taking the corner at no more than 15 or 20 miles an hour when the Mustang showed up. Reportedly, the car hadn't been going all that fast itself, 15 or 20. But it was a pretty sharp turn. The car had crossed over the double yellows to the outside of the turn. The guy on the bike was hugging the yellow. The Mustang saw what was coming and applied his brakes (the guys in the accident group saw the front end dive). The guy on the bike 'never knew what hit him' one of his friend's said. Thinking about it later, that rider must almost assuredly have known what was about to happen (unless he had his eyes closed). For whatever reason, he just didn't react. Maybe there was no time. Maybe he 'froze'.

I will never forget that rider kneeling there, praying. We asked why no one was helping the guy and one of his friends said he was dead. I don't know how they'd determined that. It looked like he hadn't been touched. He must have got up from the strike, got to his knees, not felt good and bent over and came to rest like we saw him. I don't know for a fact that he died. It spooked us. Since we didn't witness the accident, only its aftermath, we turned around and went back the way we came.

The point of the story is, it's challenge enough getting through a blind corner safely, let alone quickly. When your number's up, it's up. But no sense in pressing for an early departure. Not over something so trivial as being known as 'fast in the twisties'. Sounds like an epitaph to me: "He was fast in the twisties".

The 'Busa is a capable cornering bike. It's heavy which is it's biggest drawback. But as you point out (and if you're like me) you'll run out of potential before it does. Just ride it intelligently.

Sorry to be so 'preachy'. It comes with old age, I guess. (Note: I practice what I preach. The comment about 'old age' is a hint...)
 
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