Timing retard on gen 2

[mike miller]

I've read through alot of posts about tre and similar devices. Much debate on if the gen 2 actually does retard the timing in lower gears as compared to fifth gear map. I'm in tending to remove the smart tre and go with the parallel resistor mod (high gain) so the ecu sees 1n23455 so I can keep the stock lower gear fuel maps in place. As far as advancing timing though I have yet to find a solid answer on the gen 2

 

[POWERHOUSE]

Flash the ECU

 

[sixpack577]

It has been confusing.
As earlier versions on Ecu Editor called the same process different things.
At one time they were "gearing limiters, or restrictions", and you could also remove the top speed limiter seperately.
Through the updates, they were combined, and eventually changed to "Busa smart TRE" which is what it is called now.
Regardless, as said, flash the ecu, don't use a TRE (not to be confused with the Ecu Ed smart tre setting), or add a resistor, which does the same thing.

 

[POWERHOUSE]

The flash does a lot of good things, especially on a Gen 2. Do a search right on this forum so you can see real feedback and reviews from people who have already had this done . . .

 

[Dennis]

Flash!

 

[Kiwi Rider]

Flash!! Aaaaaah ahh, Saviour of the Universe!

 

[airborneuph]

 

[Kiwi Rider]

View attachment 1579579

Ha! Had to take it one level lower didntcha?

 

[Mythos]

Much debate on if the gen 2 actually does retard the timing in lower gears as compared to fifth gear map.

I can feel it in 1st and 2nd gears. I think it was around 6000 rpm. It's either a timing retard or I have a weak spot in my fuel map. My bet is timing since it's only in the lower gears.

I have a deep interst in self tuning the old fashioned way. In the past few years the answer to every question is "FLASH." People have come to simply trust a flash. I believe most new owners don't have a clue how fueling, timing flies or any of the other aspects of engine tuning even work. OH WELL-- if a flash works, great--go with it and save yourself a lot of time you could have been riding the bike instead of tuning it. Just be aware, there is and never has been a map that works best for any bike but the one it was created for. Of course, that won't make enough difference to most owners. If you are fascinated with tuning, I'd say do it yourself. There are a lot more options than if you just throw in a flash.

I would suggest looking into the ECU Editor box sold by Boost by Smith. I'm sure you can adjust your timing through that. Only problem will be finding out what the stock timing map is and what safe adjustments are. A TRE is foolproof. It just eliminates the pulled timing and your at optimum for all gears but yes, you are then stuck to that one gears fuel mapping. Not all together a bad thing. Most people who use fuel modules just run one map for all gears and that works well. You are safer to run one map for all gears if you have NOS or Boost.

I'm curious what the parallel resistor mod is. Got a link?

 

[mike miller]

I have a Pc3 setup how I wanted it and a smart tre so I still get gear indicator but i was debating on going the flash route but have never used that before and am not even sure if it would run as good as it does now without extensive tuning. I also have my secondaries removed which being stuck in the fifth gear fuel map i believe helps it run better with my current setup. So I'm just trying to weigh my options I guess.. Maybe I should stick to if it ain't broke don't fix it cause right now the bike runs beautiful and has alot more power than before I did any of this

 

[mike miller]

The high gain mod just uses a 22k ohm resistor in parallel with the gps to reduce 6th gear resistance value without screwing up the other gear values enough to make ecu think its in a diff gear. It would rear 1n23455

 

[Dennis]

I can feel it in 1st and 2nd gears. I think it was around 6000 rpm. It's either a timing retard or I have a weak spot in my fuel map. My bet is timing since it's only in the lower gears.

I have a deep interst in self tuning the old fashioned way. In the past few years the answer to every question is "FLASH." People have come to simply trust a flash. I believe most new owners don't have a clue how fueling, timing flies or any of the other aspects of engine tuning even work. OH WELL-- if a flash works, great--go with it and save yourself a lot of time you could have been riding the bike instead of tuning it. Just be aware, there is and never has been a map that works best for any bike but the one it was created for. Of course, that won't make enough difference to most owners. If you are fascinated with tuning, I'd say do it yourself. There are a lot more options than if you just throw in a flash.

I would suggest looking into the ECU Editor box sold by Boost by Smith. I'm sure you can adjust your timing through that. Only problem will be finding out what the stock timing map is and what safe adjustments are. A TRE is foolproof. It just eliminates the pulled timing and your at optimum for all gears but yes, you are then stuck to that one gears fuel mapping. Not all together a bad thing. Most people who use fuel modules just run one map for all gears and that works well. You are safer to run one map for all gears if you have NOS or Boost.

I'm curious what the parallel resistor mod is. Got a link?

"Flash" doesn't necessarily mean generic flash. I make my tuning adjustments by flashing. I also control nitrous and air shifter by flashing the ECU. STP maps, O2 disable, PAIR disable, fan on/off temps and other functions can be set as desired. Spending any money on a TRE these days seems to be a waste of money to me.

 

[sixpack577]

I have a Pc3 setup how I wanted it and a smart tre so I still get gear indicator but i was debating on going the flash route but have never used that before and am not even sure if it would run as good as it does now without extensive tuning. I also have my secondaries removed which being stuck in the fifth gear fuel map i believe helps it run better with my current setup. So I'm just trying to weigh my options I guess.. Maybe I should stick to if it ain't broke don't fix it cause right now the bike runs beautiful and has alot more power than before I did any of this

Taking the secondaries out doesn't work very well, been there, done that.
Flash is much better.
Ask Smith himself.
The stp opening rate should be a copy/paste of 1st/5th to 2,3,4 and 6.
Stp fueling should be 100%, every gear, every cell, nothing to do with air/fuel ratio either, just using all of what is already available.
More timing at lower rpms does make a big difference street riding as well.
Drag racers don't need or notice because they are leaving the tree above those rpms.

 

[Mythos]

Spending any money on a TRE these days seems to be a waste of money to me.

I'd agree ---as long as you can find reliable info on what the ignition mapping is for the busa. You can adjust it with flashing software but I doubt if you can see the ECU tables. With a TRE, you don't need to know how much timing to add for each gear. Just set it for 6th gear and all are derestricted.

 

[POWERHOUSE]

POWERHOUSE has the high gain mod plugs in stock, I think we even have the switchable ones, I would have to check. Sixpack, what you said about the STP fueling being set to 100% is not correct. I believe you are referring to the injector balance table. Putting that value in that table would keep the lower injectors on full, the upper injectors would not even fire. Everything else you said is correct.

And Mythos - you don't "set" a TRE to anything, and if you could it wouldn't be sixth gear. A TRE locks the entire ecu into a FIFTH gear map (both ignition and fueling), which is the derestricted one. A TRE sucks, I got four hanging on the wall for the last eight years. Flashing the ecu by someone who knows wtf they are doing is what you want.

Sorry, just trying to keep misinformation to a minimum . . .

 

[fallenarch]

But really when you get right down to it, isn't misinformation what the internet is all about?

 

[Mythos]

you don't "set" a TRE to anything, and if you could it wouldn't be sixth gear. A TRE locks the entire ecu into a FIFTH gear map (both ignition and fueling), which is the derestricted one.

I was referring to the GiPro G2 ATRE. You can set to any gear you want or bypass and ride all stock gear maps and you have a gear indicator to replace the disabled stocker + TSL is disabled. There is at least one other TRE that comes with an ON/OFF switch and it is made by a lesser known company. IDK if it is for the busa.

The Ivan TRE locks in 5 or 6. Both 5 and 6 have derestricted timing so it would not seem to matter which one it is...whichever one your gear indicator is locked in is what it is. If 5 is better than 6 for some reason, I'm sure Ivan knew that but he himself did not remember which it was when I spoke to him a few weeks ago on the phone (this was concerning the Gen1 ZX-14 TREs). you can rig up a switch to bypass an Ivan TRE if you want.

Far as I know, if you're running NOS, you don't want gear dependent mapping anyway. Lock to a single map to keep the ignition and fueling consistent in all gears.

Since we have the capability to map/gear, the idea of doing so for NA application seems appealing but I do not know if there is any performance advantage to it. The only purpose may be to restrict the engine or enhance fuel economy.

I'd rather flash to avoid the electronic piggies failure risk but adjusting a flash just leads back to using piggies or else reflashing. To me, it's mostly a matter of "how much do you want to mess with the bike" and of course, as you mentioned in the past, "can the average owner learn their piggies enough to get both the best performance and avoid blowing the bike up". A good flash designed for the bike's mods should always be safe as long as the engine mods don't change drastically. I guess I'm just a control freak.

 

[POWERHOUSE]

Yes, you can set an ATRE to lock everything in 3rd, or 4th, or whatever gear you want. Fifth gear is the "full timing" derestricted gear in the ecu, that is what you want your box set to for the maximum performance and unrestricted top end. Ideally, the Busa ecu has multiple fuel and ignition maps that change depending on the gear selected. "Locking" the ecu into any one gear is not the way to go (IMHO) when ecu flashing is so readily available. You can "unify" the ignition and fueling maps through the ecu if you are looking for that consistency you mentioned. A bike's stock gear indicator would still read all the gears properly and not display 5th gear all the time with a flashed ecu. And yes, Ivan did "invent" the TRE, which is just a resistor, and his TRE locks the bike into 5th gear, not sixth. Sixth is the restricted one. A "smart" TRE avoids disrupting the idle when the bike is in neutral, that is all. An ATRE is a glorified gear indicator.

The bottom line is that a TRE and TRE "technology" is old school. I can't believe we are still talking about this. I'm out!

 

[Mythos]

But really when you get right down to it, isn't misinformation what the internet is all about?

That's where I get all my misinformation.

 

[Mythos]

You can "unify" the ignition and fueling maps through the ecu if you are looking for that consistency you mentioned. A bike's stock gear indicator would still read all the gears properly and not display 5th gear all the time with a flashed ecu.

Ahhh--sounds like there is a custom map that covers all the gears better than any one of the stock gear maps. ...and there is some advantage to unifying over locking even if it is only to keep the gear indicator functioning??? Well, I'm bound and determined to figure that out and do it by piggies or ECU Editor but if I need to go all the way to a Woolich software, I'll do it one day.