Riding technique

[Spudley]

Steer with your butt cheeks.

--Wag--

Negate most of this, as I realized that A) Charles has sounded in, B) others have already nailed this, to a great extent, explained the very concepts, C) Need to read second page of discussion from now on....

Thanks WAG, that's the deal for me......  

Shawn, I know when I started riding the Hayabusa compared to other "lighter" rides that turning in was an issue I needed much learning in.  I found if I over pushed at too low a speed she would dive.  I then experimented with "just" pushing down as much as needed to initiate the turn in.  I then experimented at freeway speeds with just the "lean" factor and / or a certain amount of "push" to stabilize the radius of the turn.  What was really interesting was the fact that I'm right-handed, and yet my left-turn was much more stable than my right-hand at all speeds.  

Something interesting happened while chasing dot.org members during the Vegas Baby run......I started "naturally" shifting my hips slightly in the direction of the turn as if I was pushing my knee into the tank indent.  This took "most" of the "push" out of the turn.  Now don't get me wrong....when running sweepers, and shorter radius turns at near, or above triple-digits, we all stabilize against something, as if, to help the stabilizer "balance" the control pressures.  Yet for me, I started relying on it.  Now I have a combination of hip shift, that accompanies my control push and pull.  

Example:  If I'm pushing to the left (for a left hander), I stabilize with a slight shift to the left, with a "slight" pull on the right grip for stability.  

Now these control inputs, and weight shifts are subtle to say the least.  They do, though, allow me better finesse and I manage the "sweet spot" of balancing the turn.  I notice it the most when I'm rolling a cloverleaf, where I balance the weight offset to accomodate the tight radius of the some of the onramps they have out here.  My roll-out is smoother when I straighten out, and while I'm controling the tighter radius I have little-to-no handlebar pressure input going on.  It's as if shifting my hips is just enough to allow the bike to turn itself.  It's very interesting.  Now this technique has strengthened my right-hand turns, and now I have much better control in either direction at "any" speed.

What's "really" interesting, is that when I run through a series of left-to-right turns, as I offset my weight, I notice my hips floating as if my leg muscles have taken over the control of my saddle-weighting (my arse).......with "much" less effort, more of a float from side to side.  I get more of an indicator from my knee caps than my wrists of where I'm at in relation to the forces of the bike.  

I wonder what Charles (or anyone else) has to offer from his / her experience on the track that might offer more insight

?......anyway, the point is, I have no fear or apprehension in turns in either direction now........

Anyway, I'm sure I'm just articulating that which has been discovered by many in their efforts to better relate to their machines.......

Just a thought....

 

[Shibumi]

quote: "contrary to what some of you saw at the spring Bash". end quote.

shawn is that you laughing at yourself?

what's strange to me is when i learned of this technique in the MSF course they taught it as pushing "down" on the bars, not "forward" as i believe [if i'm correct] it should be. "twist of the wrist vol II" was very helpful in explaining counter steering and the other things involved with turning a sport bike. i personally have to learn to turn in "quicker", not go faster through a turn but get into a turn "quicker". very rarely but sometimes in a blue moon i find myself pulling on the opposite side of the bars to counter steer. my worst habit is just plain "leaning" to turn instead of "counter steering".

i was thinking of puting on the +1" rear links to make the bike turn quicker and my bud who used to race at the track told me "just counter steer quicker".

Do the links!!

I have a 1 3/10" higher rear due to 190/55 tire, yes a Busa can feel "flickable"!!

 

[LA Busa]

After 12 trackdays, I find myself countersteering less and less.  I lean off the bike a lot.  And for anyone who doesn't lean off a lot, this probaly won't work for you.  I grip the tank with my outside leg and as I lean my body into the corner, the bike leans with me.  I find that this is the most precise method of hitting the line I want to take.

Well put, sounds like an instructor that I just paid $400 for one day of guidance!

You should hold some classes sir - for uh.... $200!

 

[Revlis]

After 12 trackdays, I find myself countersteering less and less. I lean off the bike a lot. And for anyone who doesn't lean off a lot, this probaly won't work for you. I grip the tank with my outside leg and as I lean my body into the corner, the bike leans with me. I find that this is the most precise method of hitting the line I want to take.

Well put, sounds like an instructor that I just paid $400 for one day of guidance!

You should hold some classes sir - for uh.... $200!

Not to pick on CharlesBusa, But uh No Not really... It's a FEELING/Fashion ONLY, he's still countersteering, it's the only way to effectively get a bike turned at speed with ANY sort of quickness.

The Knee in the tank/ clambering around like a monkey hanging off the side is cool looking, and sure it alters the bikes center of gravity allowing a little more speed in the corners but it's still countersteering that gets the job done, whether a person realizes it or not.

Spend your $200 elsewhere.

A Suggestion Charles, Take your hands off the bars, place them on the tank then make a decent turn. Go Ahead I'll wait...

Right, it just doesn't work, flail around all you want, hang off all you want, but it's still all about countersteering. Suggesting otherwise could get a person hurt as there is simply no other way to get a bike to turn in a hurry. Steering with your feet, trail braking, pressure on the tank all have some minor influences on direction and attitude but it's countersteering that gets the turn made.

 

[FloydV]

After 12 trackdays, I find myself countersteering less and less. I lean off the bike a lot. And for anyone who doesn't lean off a lot, this probaly won't work for you. I grip the tank with my outside leg and as I lean my body into the corner, the bike leans with me. I find that this is the most precise method of hitting the line I want to take.

Well put, sounds like an instructor that I just paid $400 for one day of guidance!

You should hold some classes sir - for uh.... $200!

I find that I have to lean my body with the counter steer. Kind of lean and then counter steer. If I just counter steer my instinct is to fight the lean (lean of the bike from the counter steer). If that makes any sense.

 

[Charlesbusa]

After 12 trackdays, I find myself countersteering less and less.  I lean off the bike a lot.  And for anyone who doesn't lean off a lot, this probaly won't work for you.  I grip the tank with my outside leg and as I lean my body into the corner, the bike leans with me.  I find that this is the most precise method of hitting the line I want to take.

Well put, sounds like an instructor that I just paid $400 for one day of guidance!

You should hold some classes sir - for uh.... $200!

Not to pick on CharlesBusa, But uh No Not really...  It's a FEELING/Fashion ONLY, he's still countersteering, it's the only way to effectively get a bike turned at speed with ANY sort of quickness.

The Knee in the tank/ clambering around like a monkey hanging off the side is cool looking, and sure it alters the bikes center of gravity allowing a little more speed in the corners but it's still countersteering that gets the job done, whether a person realizes it or not.

Spend your $200 elsewhere.  

A Suggestion Charles, Take your hands off the bars, place them on the tank then make a decent turn.  Go Ahead I'll wait...

   


Right, it just doesn't work, flail around all you want, hang off all you want, but it's still all about countersteering.  Suggesting otherwise could get a person hurt as there is simply no other way to get a bike to turn in a hurry.  Steering with your feet, trail braking, pressure on the tank all have some minor influences on direction and attitude but it's countersteering that gets the turn made.

Easy now Revlis    

   I never said I don't countersteer  

I said I countersteer less than I used to.  Before I started leaning off, before the 55 profile rear, and before the +1" raising links.

My main point in my post  

  was that I think the upper body is more key to fast cornering than countersteering.  Mainly because I found that when I relieded on countersteering I was unintentionally fighting it with my upper body.  By lowering my upper body and turning my shoulders into the turn, I found it easier to turn in and much easier to take the line I wanted to take.  

 

[Big Red]

Active countersteering is the best way to set the bike up in the corners to turn. It is easier for us to set up a right turn because most of the turns off and on the freeways are right handers. Our British friends are better at left handers!

 

[Revlis]

After 12 trackdays, I find myself countersteering less and less. I lean off the bike a lot. And for anyone who doesn't lean off a lot, this probaly won't work for you. I grip the tank with my outside leg and as I lean my body into the corner, the bike leans with me. I find that this is the most precise method of hitting the line I want to take.

Well put, sounds like an instructor that I just paid $400 for one day of guidance!

You should hold some classes sir - for uh.... $200!

Not to pick on CharlesBusa, But uh No Not really... It's a FEELING/Fashion ONLY, he's still countersteering, it's the only way to effectively get a bike turned at speed with ANY sort of quickness.

The Knee in the tank/ clambering around like a monkey hanging off the side is cool looking, and sure it alters the bikes center of gravity allowing a little more speed in the corners but it's still countersteering that gets the job done, whether a person realizes it or not.

Spend your $200 elsewhere.

A Suggestion Charles, Take your hands off the bars, place them on the tank then make a decent turn. Go Ahead I'll wait...

Right, it just doesn't work, flail around all you want, hang off all you want, but it's still all about countersteering. Suggesting otherwise could get a person hurt as there is simply no other way to get a bike to turn in a hurry. Steering with your feet, trail braking, pressure on the tank all have some minor influences on direction and attitude but it's countersteering that gets the turn made.

Easy now Revlis

I never said I don't countersteer

I said I countersteer less than I used to. Before I started leaning off, before the 55 profile rear, and before the +1" raising links.

My main point in my post

was that I think the upper body is more key to fast cornering than countersteering. Mainly because I found that when I relieded on countersteering I was unintentionally fighting it with my upper body. By lowering my upper body and turning my shoulders into the turn, I found it easier to turn in and much easier to take the line I wanted to take.

Ah I gotcha, you're saying that you are going faster through the corners, not that you are turning in faster. Getting down on the bike, and leading with your chin/shoulder. Gotcha, sounds like you have gotten a lot more comfortable on the bike and countersteering has simply become transparant.

But your still countersteering, I understand now,

I appreciate you not getting riled.

 

[Charlesbusa]

After 12 trackdays, I find myself countersteering less and less. I lean off the bike a lot. And for anyone who doesn't lean off a lot, this probaly won't work for you. I grip the tank with my outside leg and as I lean my body into the corner, the bike leans with me. I find that this is the most precise method of hitting the line I want to take.

Well put, sounds like an instructor that I just paid $400 for one day of guidance!

You should hold some classes sir - for uh.... $200!

Not to pick on CharlesBusa, But uh No Not really... It's a FEELING/Fashion ONLY, he's still countersteering, it's the only way to effectively get a bike turned at speed with ANY sort of quickness.

The Knee in the tank/ clambering around like a monkey hanging off the side is cool looking, and sure it alters the bikes center of gravity allowing a little more speed in the corners but it's still countersteering that gets the job done, whether a person realizes it or not.

Spend your $200 elsewhere.

A Suggestion Charles, Take your hands off the bars, place them on the tank then make a decent turn. Go Ahead I'll wait...

Right, it just doesn't work, flail around all you want, hang off all you want, but it's still all about countersteering. Suggesting otherwise could get a person hurt as there is simply no other way to get a bike to turn in a hurry. Steering with your feet, trail braking, pressure on the tank all have some minor influences on direction and attitude but it's countersteering that gets the turn made.

Easy now Revlis

I never said I don't countersteer

I said I countersteer less than I used to. Before I started leaning off, before the 55 profile rear, and before the +1" raising links.

My main point in my post

was that I think the upper body is more key to fast cornering than countersteering. Mainly because I found that when I relieded on countersteering I was unintentionally fighting it with my upper body. By lowering my upper body and turning my shoulders into the turn, I found it easier to turn in and much easier to take the line I wanted to take.

Ah I gotcha, you're saying that you are going faster through the corners, not that you are turning in faster. Getting down on the bike, and leading with your chin/shoulder. Gotcha, sounds like you have gotten a lot more comfortable on the bike and countersteering has simply become transparant.

But your still countersteering, I understand now,

I appreciate you not getting riled.

No problem Rev

There are so many different styles when it comes to cornering, there ends up being many correct ways of doing it.

Just look at motogp or the AMA. Spies with his elbows way up in the air or Hopkins and Elias who both hang way way off the bike.

 

[FloydV]

Active countersteering is the best way to set the bike up in the corners to turn. It is easier for us to set up a right turn because most of the turns off and on the freeways are right handers. Our British friends are better at left handers!

Interesting idea.

 

[drfbusa]

My chicken strips are smaller on the left side.  Ill take this as taking left turns harder.  In support, I also enjoy left turns more and feel more aggressive in those turns.  For me, the reason for this could be because the majority of a left turn is performed in the open clear space of the oncomming lane.  This also coincides with at least a lane's width distance from the curb.  on right turns, a rider is in the lane closest to the curb.  in setting up for a turn, I think to myself, "dont look, dont target fixate, look through the turn."  I know the curb is there and its close. On a left turn the curb/median/fixed obect is farther away.  Because the threat is closer on a right turn, I ride more conservatively. Bottom line, I hit the apex closer to the curb on a right turn. Curbs have rocks/sand/debris. no bueno.  

also, if I should go wide on a left turn, I wont be riding into oncoming traffic.  I take it very personnaly when ever I cross the double yellow on a turn regardless if there's a car there or not. Train as you fight, right?

Your mental issues may vary.

 

[Revlis]

Mental issues indeed DRF...

From your description it sounds very much like your lane positioning is a little off. Try Staying closer to the center line on right hand corners, closer to the shoulder in left hand corners. (Generally Speaking) And yeah we are talking about street riding not clipping apexes.

 

[TruWrecks]

Lee Parks "Total Control" I've read it many times in the last year. It's enjoyable and great information. He take the approach of performance street riding with his book.