Piston Question, Wossner vs OEM




#1
I just had my turbo rebuilt (it was puking oil into the exhaust) and the shop stated that there was some melted aluminum on the exhaust tubine blades. He stated that it us usually an indication that there has been some detonation or pre-ignition (make sense) and I may want to check my pistons. My question is, IF there is damage and I need to change pistons should I go with the Wossner 9:1 or the OEM. The primary use for the bike is on the street. My bike is a stock '99 with a Hahn kit (Stage 1?) running about 10 PSI of boost, 91 octane fuel (we can't get 93 here), water injection and variable rate fuel pressure regulator. I still need to dyno tune the bike, having just swapped from a PC2 over to the '05 electronics and will be running a PC5 with AutoTune.
Thanx,
Weazel
 
#2
Call John at Wossner tomorrow and have a chat with him. He's a good dude who races turbo Hayabusa's and enjoys helping out other owners. Plus Wossner is a great company, being friends with John I have got to see first hand how they are as a company.

Scott
 

GoldenChild

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#3
I would go woessner since you in it.. I have a new in the box pair I will give you a good price on we stock lots of their product..
 
#5
Thanx, Guys.
Pistons, rings, wrist pins and clips will cost me about $90 more to go with the Wossners as opposed to OEM (I get a good deal on OEM parts). I'm not concerned about that so much as how the lower compression will affect my power off boost. There are many opinions out there and the opinion of one builder that I spoke with (regarding spacer plates for lower compression) was that he didn't care for them on lower boost motors because they made the bike slow before coming on the boost.
I'll try giving John a call in the next week or so.
Thanx again,
Weazel
 
#6
Thanx, Guys.
Pistons, rings, wrist pins and clips will cost me about $90 more to go with the Wossners as opposed to OEM (I get a good deal on OEM parts). I'm not concerned about that so much as how the lower compression will affect my power off boost. There are many opinions out there and the opinion of one builder that I spoke with (regarding spacer plates for lower compression) was that he didn't care for them on lower boost motors because they made the bike slow before coming on the boost.
I'll try giving John a call in the next week or so.
Thanx again,
Weazel
I look at it this way If you have to ask this question you DO NOT NEED A TURBO BIKE:banghead:
 
#7
I look at it this way If you have to ask this question you DO NOT NEED A TURBO BIKE:banghead:
I'm not exactly sure how to take this, Johnny, but my initial thoughts are to tell you to get stuffed.
I've worked in the motorcycle business for 20 years now, and my interests range over nearly the entire spectrum of two and three wheeled possibilities. Turbos are new to me, but my questions are usually somewhat intelligent and have some direct bearing on what I'm looking at right now. I'm not starting oil or tyre threads or adding a bunch of 'Me too' posts in an attempt to run up my post count.
The Wossner pistons look to be forged and will be stronger. The OEMs are very good pistons, but perhaps not as strong. Do I need the extra strength and is it worth the trade-off, losing some torque due to lower compression?
Let me phrase it differently; how bad is the loss of torque (from lower compression) and, with only 10 pounds of boost, are the stock pistons a better choice for a street bike?
If you have something intelligent to offer, I'm listening.
If you find it beneath your station to read my knuckle-dragging, Soldier/Biker drivel then, please, feel free to keep steppin'.
If you find it necessary to insult, be a gent and don't clutter my thread with your perception of my lack of knowledge and abilities. Do it through PM if you must.
All the best,
Weazel
 
#8
Congrats on your years of working with bikes...........BUT look what happened with OEM stuff and you want to do it again. Again you may be over your head
 
#9
Haha.......Johnny never seizes to amaze me......straight to the point and no pulling punches.....and that is why I would take my bike to him if I ever need to have someone tune my crap better than me.......

It comes down to this. Pay me now or pay me later.......

I have to admit your question seemed strange considering if you know anything about turbo Busas (which have only been around since 99) and tons of good info out there, your decision instantly should have been the aftermarket.

You know what makes some people experts? The phrase "Been there done that".

In my honest opinion and no disrespect to Hayabusa.org, there are better sites out there for good information on serious performance modding of a Hayabusa.
 
#10
Haha.......Johnny never seizes to amaze me......straight to the point and no pulling punches.....and that is why I would take my bike to him if I ever need to have someone tune my crap better than me.......

It comes down to this. Pay me now or pay me later.......

I have to admit your question seemed strange considering if you know anything about turbo Busas (which have only been around since 99) and tons of good info out there, your decision instantly should have been the aftermarket.

You know what makes some people experts? The phrase "Been there done that".

In my honest opinion and no disrespect to Hayabusa.org, there are better sites out there for good information on serious performance modding of a Hayabusa.
My problem with Johnny is that he WASN'T straight to the point, but dismissive of my question and of myself. "YOU DON'T NEED A TURBO BIKE" isn't an answer to the question which I asked. I don't know a lot about turbos, this is all new to me. Have you ever started a new hobby, task on the job or career? You read, you research and you ask questions. That's how we learn. Was Johnny born with an innate knowledge of turbos? Maybe, but I doubt it. He probably had to read and ask questions as well, or he had a mentor who guided him through the process. I'm not doubting his knowledge. I have a decent amount of knowledge in other areas and I would infer that he's very knowedgable about turbos, but if the man wants to interact with me then he can at least be civil, or I would invite him to not interact with me.
I know I barked at a big dog and I'm OK with that. You guys know Johnny and you don't know me, I get it. Understand, also, that I'm not some saggy-pantsed kid who just took his college money and bought his first motorcycle. I attempt to be respectful in my dealings around here, contemplating my questions (usually) and being sure to thank those that offer assistance. I would expect the same.
I did ask a local builder who has "Been there and done that" (El Mirage LSR-type bikes and such) and he doesn't like lower compression for motors around 10 psi. I believe there other tuners who share that line of thought. I was asking for another opinion. Gathering more information, if you will.
The last time I rode the bike, which was a while back, I heard a couple of 'bonks' when I hit boost and I would attribute that to an incorrect AFR when it was running the PC2. I have yet to dial in the PC5, but when it is dialed I would think that detonation should be eliminated with the correct AFR.
My turbo guy said that the aluminum on the veins was minimal, and that the O2 sensor (before the turbine) was clean. I'll buy a scope tomorrow and try to get a look at the piston crowns over the weekend.
Is the Weazel "In over his head" as was suggested? I don't think so. That would imply that I am not capable of figuring this out. It has been said that an ignorant man is one who doesn't know something that you just learned. I would add that ignorance is curable but stupid is forever. I'm currently somewhat ignorant in the world of turbos but I'm learning daily.
I asked my question based off of information received. I'm asking for more information. Is there something wrong with that?
Anyway, it would seem that the common consensus would be to go with the Wossners if I need pistons. Duely noted, and thanx for the input.
Weazel
 
#11
I would suggest that any builders or tuners that suggest to you to run high compression engines up to 10 psi are not the ones to take advice from. You seem to be leaning towards the OEM pistons again, which are high compression, are you really looking for sound advice or are you looking for a few opinions that coincide with your train of thought towards the OEM pistons. Now you can run 10 psi with 11:1 compression with a setup like you have, and you will damage the pistons, the only way around that is to intercool the bike, and run better fuel. For a stock compression busa, with a turbo, and 91-93 octane fuel, my opinion is that 8 psi is on the edge, and if you ever plan to do any LSR it would be doubtful even 8 psi on your setup would last the course of 1 mile wide open.

I will not claim to know it all, but I do know what it takes to make a bike, or car engine last. We are not in the business of building something completely based on a customers wishes, we prefer to educate the customer, and come up with a plan that will meet their goals and end up with a finished project that lasts for years of enjoyment, stock compression and 10 psi on pump fuel will not ever leave our shop.

One last thing, the turbo you have is relatively small, which means the boost comes on early, if you are worried about off boost hp and tq with low compression, why not just keep the bike in an rpm range that works for you? Your turbo should go positive around 4000rpm, so just keep it above 4000 rpm, seems simple.

Richard
 

frisbee

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#12
I want your bike its beautful !

Goldenchild is Well known (my mechanic for 10 years now) as a great tuner here in the pacific northwest and Johnnycheese Well known down south . They have both been tuning busa's as long as they have been around . I would listen to anything the have to say ad not sweat Johnnys comment. I took it as , if you have the best of the best , Why would you replace with stock parts that have just failed you?
 
#13
Richard,
Thank you for your input. You gave me some great information and if you are 'The' Richard from up North then your reputation proceeds you. You took some time to compose your reply, and I greatly appreciate your taking the time to help The New Kid.
If stock was sufficient with the proper AFR then I'd like to run stock. If it's not a good idea then Wossners are the way to go. There have been enough experienced voices here stating that stock is not a good idea with my set up, and I'm smart enough to listen. When I go through the top end it's getting the Wossners, along with a new cam chain and tensioner.
On a side note, my turbo is the 16G and it seems to start making a difference around 5-5500 RPM and being full-on at about 7K (all depending upon throttle position). I'm not sure what's 'Normal' but that's how mine seems to be running.

Frisbee,
Thanx for the compliment. She is a beautiful bike, the original copper colour is so rare now-a-days. Everyone keeps telling me to lower it and/or stretch it and I refuse. I want it to look as close to stock as it can. That and I live on a dirt road out here in our little Northern Arizona, white-trash paradise and I can't bear the thought of dragging the plastics while trying to get to that fancy paved road.

Thanx again to you both,
Weazel
 
#14
RW i keep coming back to your original post and the comments about aluminium on the turbine blades seems a little wrong to me ,i think if you had enough on there to be visible, there would be no doubt you had a piston problem .

and as a general comment on pistons , like Scott and Jeff have said, talk to John , i phone from Australia when i need advise or parts, just dont call when there is a game on ;)
 
#15
Thanx, OZ. The more I think on this the more I'm inclined to just pull the damned motor and order pistons. The bodywork is already off. The turbo is already off. The bike has 42K miles on it now, with at least 20K of those being turbo miles...
Thanx again to everyone for the guidance.
Weazel
 
#16
I spoke with John at Wossner yesterday. A real fine bloke, that one is.
I'm going to do the Wossner pistons, cylinder studs and a new cam chain and tensioner, minimum. Valve springs were recommended and I'll probably do those as well. More RPM's always good, right? I've got some buddies that are quite skilled with the porting tools. I'll do some research and see if there's enough 'Investment vs. Return' in having the ports cleaned up/reshaped.
Not sure if I'll venture into the bottom end or not. I'll burn that bridge when I get there.
Thanx again to everyone for the input.
Weazel
 

2fast4u2c

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#18
I spoke with John at Wossner yesterday. A real fine bloke, that one is.
I'm going to do the Wossner pistons, cylinder studs and a new cam chain and tensioner, minimum. Valve springs were recommended and I'll probably do those as well. More RPM's always good, right? I've got some buddies that are quite skilled with the porting tools. I'll do some research and see if there's enough 'Investment vs. Return' in having the ports cleaned up/reshaped.
Not sure if I'll venture into the bottom end or not. I'll burn that bridge when I get there.
Thanx again to everyone for the input.
Weazel
Weazel, It's been a long time since I have been back on the .ORG but rest assured, Johnny is a really good guy and his fingers sometimes types out interesting factoids. Take it with the grain. Richard is tops in his field and you will never go wrong listening to him.
My friend John Noonan is also tops in his field. here's a little article about his pistons you might find interesting.

Wossner Pistons

Good luck on your project.

Guy
 

2fast4u2c

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#20
Yes they are. Here's a fun factoid. When JE was at the top of its Game, John was responsible for many if their piston designs. Now that he runs Wossner here in the U. S., Wossner products are the ones to beat. John has introduced literally dozens of new designs for their motorcycle and automotive line of pistons. The ones you saw in the article are actually off the shelf 1363 turbo pistons John designed for that engine. You won't and can't go wrong with his products and most if all, his service to the customer.
 

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