Maybe it's time to slow down?
- Thread starter fallenarch
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GNBRETT
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and not to mention riding on the street is a whole lot different then riding on the track where the surface is nearly perfect, no animals to run out in front of you, no cars to turn in front of you, no one text messaging and crossing the double yellow, few if any oil spills at the track, no red lights or stop signs etc....
it is kinda funny listening to him preach about track riding when just about NO ONE here rides on a track either cause there is no track near by or it just isn't all that exciting going round and round in circles for hours. no one buys a Busa to compete at the track. if they did they bought the wrong bike.
he doesn't seem to grasp the concept very well that ppl up here did not buy a Busa to hang corners. I don't know where he gets that notion from. maybe cause its easier to come up here and sound like an expert cause there just isn't many track riding guys here vs. going over to the Ducati or BMW forums where ppl who actually race at the track are.
I don't giv a chit how great of a rider one thinks they are you can't control what other drivers do on the street and if someone wants to pretent their some superstar GP racer and hang corners on the street its only a matter of time before some (18) yr old chic is text messaging her friend and plows right into you.
which is why I ALWAYS take the outside portion of the lane when coming around the corner where I'm furthest away from cars which wud be the total opposite of what one is supposed to do if trying to CARVE the corner but I don't gov a chit cause I'm not concerned with that type of riding. I like to go fast straight....
and comparing the track to the street is like watching Nascar (again, round and round in circles for hours.... lame imo) and then comparing it to someone who has a toy that he likes to operate on the street. first of all their two different types of cars and meant to two different things. no different with a street bike and a track bike.
he has a tendency to belittle everyone else's riding skills cause in his mind he's the end all be all expert and anyone who does somthn different then the way he was taught to do it must be wrong. it doesn't work that way. there are plenty of unorthodox riders that wud run circles around TECHNICAL riders. no different in MMA fighting. plenty of fighters that that jus do their own thing and kick the chit out of ppl.
I have a very close friend who races up at Loconia and has NEVER been to any riding camps or ever had anyone teach him chit about rider skill, cornering, braking etc... and he is one of if not the best rider I've ever seen that isn't a professional YET. been riding since he was 4. he just has god given skill and wud absolutely run circles around Tuf and he is only 18 yrs old. maybe Tuf can quiz him on all the technical aspects of the sport for which I'm sure he would get all wrong but put him on his bike and tell him to race and he wud SCHOOL people....
it is kinda funny listening to him preach about track riding when just about NO ONE here rides on a track either cause there is no track near by or it just isn't all that exciting going round and round in circles for hours. no one buys a Busa to compete at the track. if they did they bought the wrong bike.
he doesn't seem to grasp the concept very well that ppl up here did not buy a Busa to hang corners. I don't know where he gets that notion from. maybe cause its easier to come up here and sound like an expert cause there just isn't many track riding guys here vs. going over to the Ducati or BMW forums where ppl who actually race at the track are.
I don't giv a chit how great of a rider one thinks they are you can't control what other drivers do on the street and if someone wants to pretent their some superstar GP racer and hang corners on the street its only a matter of time before some (18) yr old chic is text messaging her friend and plows right into you.
which is why I ALWAYS take the outside portion of the lane when coming around the corner where I'm furthest away from cars which wud be the total opposite of what one is supposed to do if trying to CARVE the corner but I don't gov a chit cause I'm not concerned with that type of riding. I like to go fast straight....
and comparing the track to the street is like watching Nascar (again, round and round in circles for hours.... lame imo) and then comparing it to someone who has a toy that he likes to operate on the street. first of all their two different types of cars and meant to two different things. no different with a street bike and a track bike.
he has a tendency to belittle everyone else's riding skills cause in his mind he's the end all be all expert and anyone who does somthn different then the way he was taught to do it must be wrong. it doesn't work that way. there are plenty of unorthodox riders that wud run circles around TECHNICAL riders. no different in MMA fighting. plenty of fighters that that jus do their own thing and kick the chit out of ppl.
I have a very close friend who races up at Loconia and has NEVER been to any riding camps or ever had anyone teach him chit about rider skill, cornering, braking etc... and he is one of if not the best rider I've ever seen that isn't a professional YET. been riding since he was 4. he just has god given skill and wud absolutely run circles around Tuf and he is only 18 yrs old. maybe Tuf can quiz him on all the technical aspects of the sport for which I'm sure he would get all wrong but put him on his bike and tell him to race and he wud SCHOOL people....
I have to agree street riding vs. track riding are two different scenarios. The few track days I've attended were awesome and very enlightening. The track experiences were extremely controlled environments which allowed me to concentrate on my riding skills and techniques, or lack of, and I could then focus on improving those skills. It also allowed me to get a better understanding of what the Hayabusa is capable of under ideal(?) conditions. Street riding is completely hit & miss, pun intended. It is apples to oranges comparing track days to regular street riding. However, the skills learned or improved on during a track experience can be utilized during street riding.
Also, I will say that Tuf has never advocated riding the street as if you were on the track. On the contrary, he has always stressed keeping the fast riding to the track and using best judgement when on the street. It feels kind of strange defending him as his posting and comment style is a little confrontational but hey, it is the internet and people can act like they wish.
Anyway, I say if Arch wants to slow it down and get a different type of ride, go for it, and he will have the Hayabusa to crank up when that itch is there.
Also, I will say that Tuf has never advocated riding the street as if you were on the track. On the contrary, he has always stressed keeping the fast riding to the track and using best judgement when on the street. It feels kind of strange defending him as his posting and comment style is a little confrontational but hey, it is the internet and people can act like they wish.
Anyway, I say if Arch wants to slow it down and get a different type of ride, go for it, and he will have the Hayabusa to crank up when that itch is there.
Well I'm not going to go any further pounding on Tuff because I know where he is coming from, I agree with most of what GNBRETT said already. There are just some things you learn out there on the road that a track won't teach you. For example:
When I am riding with my buddy it's sort of a game to pick up movement coming perpendicular to us first. Sometimes it's a truck coming to an intersection, an animal, or just the wind blowing the grass and leaving a shadow.
Or smelling grass and knowing to slow down around the blind corner because there might be grass on the road.
Or smelling rotten flesh and knowing to beware for vultures.
Or smelling hay and slowing for a possible tractor in the road ahead?
How about if a dog has an angle on you if you break the angle by slowing down or speeding up they will break off the attack?
How about riding to the yellow line if you can't see the road over the drop off to give yourself maximum time to react no matter which way the road turns?
Or that when you ride the interstate, look at the car in front of the car in front of you. This increases your reaction time considerably.
Or that when you follow a rider on the street look through them at the road. This will also increase your reaction time and make your ride more enjoyable.
Losts of really criticl stuff like this comes from years on the road. Even knowing how to ride the conditions is something you won't learn on the track (except maybe wet/dry). I'm not knocking the track. If you want to know all you can about your bike you'll eventually find yourself at a track. But there are a lot of good street riders that never saw a track too.
When I am riding with my buddy it's sort of a game to pick up movement coming perpendicular to us first. Sometimes it's a truck coming to an intersection, an animal, or just the wind blowing the grass and leaving a shadow.
Or smelling grass and knowing to slow down around the blind corner because there might be grass on the road.
Or smelling rotten flesh and knowing to beware for vultures.
Or smelling hay and slowing for a possible tractor in the road ahead?
How about if a dog has an angle on you if you break the angle by slowing down or speeding up they will break off the attack?
How about riding to the yellow line if you can't see the road over the drop off to give yourself maximum time to react no matter which way the road turns?
Or that when you ride the interstate, look at the car in front of the car in front of you. This increases your reaction time considerably.
Or that when you follow a rider on the street look through them at the road. This will also increase your reaction time and make your ride more enjoyable.
Losts of really criticl stuff like this comes from years on the road. Even knowing how to ride the conditions is something you won't learn on the track (except maybe wet/dry). I'm not knocking the track. If you want to know all you can about your bike you'll eventually find yourself at a track. But there are a lot of good street riders that never saw a track too.
TallTom
Registered
I think we all go through a "self awareness" every so often as we age. Call it a sense of mortality or whatever you want to call it. I have no kids. I'm not married. That doesn't mean I still don't think about what is important and what matters. I think its a matter of perspective. When I get on my Busa I feel more alive than when I am not on it. That doesn't mean I need to go 200 MPH to feel that way. But I don't look at how fast I need to take a curve or how fast I need to blow by cars.
I think to some extent we are all here adrenaline junkies. We wouldn't own this bike if we weren't. But as we age we tend to keep things in a more mortal perspective.
I'd rather die doing something I love, than sit in front of a TV and do nothing risky just to make sure others have me around.
I think to some extent we are all here adrenaline junkies. We wouldn't own this bike if we weren't. But as we age we tend to keep things in a more mortal perspective.
I'd rather die doing something I love, than sit in front of a TV and do nothing risky just to make sure others have me around.
Brett, Arch: I have been riding (if you want to call it riding) motorcycles since I was 14 years old on the street. Since I'm now 53 that's 39 years. So let me give you the benefit of 39 years riding and still living to tell it.
In those 39 years, while I may have gained a lot of street survival skills, I didn't have ONE SINGLE FARKIN CLUE of how to truly RIDE a motorcycle until encouraged by Tuf to start track riding (for which I personally am EXTREMELY grateful). I am now safer and more in control while still considerably faster than I ever was before. In a set of fairly controlled circumstances, track riding teaches you what you and your motorcycle are capable of, which only puts more tools in your toolkit for that inevitable "OH CRAP" moment on the street when you need to reach into that bag, pull something out and save your life. Yet, I am probably slower on the street because a) I get my kicks at the track; and b) how FINAL a crash on the street can be.
The point I think Tuf is trying to make is that there is NO amount of farkels, mods or parts that will make the RIDER any better than he was without them - only instruction (tracktime) or crazy-stupid street riding will do that for you, usually including some broken bones, scrape marks and other battle scars that mark your 'experience". What you guys don't get is that he's purposefully pushing your buttons to get you aggravated enough to HEAR what he's trying to impart. And maybe, JUST MAYBE, someone else reading this thread may gather something useful from it.
And while Arch I said "its your money spend it as you wish" - I still agree that it would be better spent on training - but I'm not your wife or your mother so that's your life to live as you see fit.
Brett: You may well have a friend who is "King of the Street" with some serious skillz; but I promise you there is ALWAYS someone faster unless his last name is Marquez....
In those 39 years, while I may have gained a lot of street survival skills, I didn't have ONE SINGLE FARKIN CLUE of how to truly RIDE a motorcycle until encouraged by Tuf to start track riding (for which I personally am EXTREMELY grateful). I am now safer and more in control while still considerably faster than I ever was before. In a set of fairly controlled circumstances, track riding teaches you what you and your motorcycle are capable of, which only puts more tools in your toolkit for that inevitable "OH CRAP" moment on the street when you need to reach into that bag, pull something out and save your life. Yet, I am probably slower on the street because a) I get my kicks at the track; and b) how FINAL a crash on the street can be.
The point I think Tuf is trying to make is that there is NO amount of farkels, mods or parts that will make the RIDER any better than he was without them - only instruction (tracktime) or crazy-stupid street riding will do that for you, usually including some broken bones, scrape marks and other battle scars that mark your 'experience". What you guys don't get is that he's purposefully pushing your buttons to get you aggravated enough to HEAR what he's trying to impart. And maybe, JUST MAYBE, someone else reading this thread may gather something useful from it.
And while Arch I said "its your money spend it as you wish" - I still agree that it would be better spent on training - but I'm not your wife or your mother so that's your life to live as you see fit.
Brett: You may well have a friend who is "King of the Street" with some serious skillz; but I promise you there is ALWAYS someone faster unless his last name is Marquez....
GNBRETT
Registered
im not sayn there is nothn to learn from track riding. some ppl are just naturally really good.
there is more then one way to carve a corner, launch a bike at the drag strip or LSR. one can learn more about overall riding and skill with any of those disciplines. its not just gonna come from GP style racing around a track. it definitely takes skill to race around the track no doubt. but it also takes skill holding onto a bike going 190+ mph down the 1/4 mile or 250+ mph in LSR.
ALL of those types of riding takes skill and can be carried over to street riding as well. so those tools u refer to come from more then one type of riding discipline.
there is more then one way to carve a corner, launch a bike at the drag strip or LSR. one can learn more about overall riding and skill with any of those disciplines. its not just gonna come from GP style racing around a track. it definitely takes skill to race around the track no doubt. but it also takes skill holding onto a bike going 190+ mph down the 1/4 mile or 250+ mph in LSR.
ALL of those types of riding takes skill and can be carried over to street riding as well. so those tools u refer to come from more then one type of riding discipline.
cheferman65
Registered
How many of you avid track day/racers ride your bikes the same on a public road? None, I guarantee it.I for one do not. Do you take the experience and skill to the open road....absolutely.
Anyone pushing on the street treating it like their personal track is asking for for a whole bunch of hurt. What's learnt on the track/track day school/ class is great. Absolute focus on track, bike, yourself and other riders, safe run off, is awesome. Let's add say, cars, changing road conditions, unexpected objects in your path. Your track day skill set prepare you for that?
Whats needed here is good judgement, without that riding on the street regardless of skill level is for naught.
Anyone pushing on the street treating it like their personal track is asking for for a whole bunch of hurt. What's learnt on the track/track day school/ class is great. Absolute focus on track, bike, yourself and other riders, safe run off, is awesome. Let's add say, cars, changing road conditions, unexpected objects in your path. Your track day skill set prepare you for that?
Whats needed here is good judgement, without that riding on the street regardless of skill level is for naught.
Partially agree, if by you mean gaining skill in other-than-street environments. I'm just not sure when you are going to be using your 190+ straight-line learned skill on the street...but I can guaranty you'll use racetrack skills there. Not trying to get into a pissing contest between drag and track racers here.
GNBRETT
Registered
im not sayn there are many that are gonna be goin 190+ mph on the street but the fact is it takes quite a bit of skill, balance and BALLZ to do so at the track.
but yea I'm sure there are skills learned at the track that can surely be used on the street but most ppl at the track have track bikes that are gutted, all wired up, different tires and geared for the track.
just like a vehicle in nascar its not the same vehicle used on the street so what one learns as a nascar driver isn't necessarily gonna be carried over and used on the street but yea I agree there is a lot to be learned at the track that can be used on the street but again that can be said for many disciplines but imo nothn prepares anyone for street riding like street riding does.
There is another point of view here. At the track, while there is less of a chance of getting seriously hurt there is a higher chance of a crash caused by your own error. This is because the reason you "learn" on a track is because you push your comfort zone. If I crash my bike on the track I wad up $18K out of my pocket. If I wad it up on the street, it's $18K out of State Farms pocket. If I get a track bike, I'm not learning with Busa so we aren't a team and what you do in a bad situation with a 400 lb. liter bike is at least a little different from what you do on a 600 lb. Busa.
Really using the track to learn advanced skills is expensive and time consuming. To get satisfaction out of this you have to enjoy circling a track or trying to objectively (time) improve your skills. Me, I just don't get going as fast as I can to get back where I started, I like to look around, enjoy the ride. BTW: Learning to enjoy the view and not get distracted is a road skill you have to learn too.
Really using the track to learn advanced skills is expensive and time consuming. To get satisfaction out of this you have to enjoy circling a track or trying to objectively (time) improve your skills. Me, I just don't get going as fast as I can to get back where I started, I like to look around, enjoy the ride. BTW: Learning to enjoy the view and not get distracted is a road skill you have to learn too.
Personally, I think every ride is a learning process, if you can fit in track days, that's more learning, and if you live your riding life worried about all of the "what ifs", you'd never enjoy a single moment of the ride at all. You do what you feel is in your comfort zone, you work on areas you feel you're not strong in, you do what you feel is best FOR YOU and live to ride another day. From your original post, Willie, I kind of got the impression that you don't like that the "younger crowd" feels you're on the wrong bike, that you should be on something else...who cares what anyone else thinks? I know I don't...I'm a 44 year old female on a Busa - imagine all the grief and/or attention that's gotten over the years, both good and bad? I have never ever let it get to me. It's my choice to ride what I ride, and I ride in my comfort zone every single time. I ride defensively at all times and I do my best to make it back home because, like you mentioned, I have people that depend on me being around. That doesn't mean I'll be here forever; there are no guarantees in this life, but that's the best we can do.
I used to really want to do track days, but the older I get, the less I care about going through the chaos to get to 'em. There are no tracks close by, it's truly a commitment with VIR so far away and I fear it would become a pricey hobby. I don't have the time or money for a pricey hobby
but that's my choice...certainly not something I would discourage others from doing...in fact I tell Omar constantly that if he'd like to take up track days, I'd be there by his side. I'd rather put my Mustang on the track to be quite honest; just the toy I enjoy the most I guess, and where I'd choose to put my money and efforts should I ever opt to do that...
Don't over think it all Willie. Enjoy what you do the way you want to, just as you always have. Twotonevert said it best early on - it's part of your life, you do it for you. The rest doesn't really matter to anyone else, does it? And, if you opt to buy that second bike, and it just so happens to be a BMW, join the ever-growing oRg members here that have 'em! You won't be alone
I used to really want to do track days, but the older I get, the less I care about going through the chaos to get to 'em. There are no tracks close by, it's truly a commitment with VIR so far away and I fear it would become a pricey hobby. I don't have the time or money for a pricey hobby
but that's my choice...certainly not something I would discourage others from doing...in fact I tell Omar constantly that if he'd like to take up track days, I'd be there by his side. I'd rather put my Mustang on the track to be quite honest; just the toy I enjoy the most I guess, and where I'd choose to put my money and efforts should I ever opt to do that...Don't over think it all Willie. Enjoy what you do the way you want to, just as you always have. Twotonevert said it best early on - it's part of your life, you do it for you. The rest doesn't really matter to anyone else, does it? And, if you opt to buy that second bike, and it just so happens to be a BMW, join the ever-growing oRg members here that have 'em! You won't be alone
BTW, as long as it's not 'timed' (i.e. a race), State Farm considers track time 'instruction' and therefore covers it just like a street crash. I cannot deny that there is a greater opportunity to wad your stuff up on a racetrack, but I believe the degree of personal injury is less as you are wearing full leathers and emergency personnel are on site. I rode the first two years on a Busa before I bought my gixxer as I moved out of novice and into intermediate and advanced...but there is PLENTY to learn on a Busa out in Novice...Yes, it's quite a committment to get to a trackday, but don't knock it til ya try it!
Arch - call me when ready on those Brembo Calipers.
http://www.pashnit.com/product/brembo/brembo_calipers_buynow.html#top
Sky I didn't know the insurance thing - thanks for pointing that out!
Tim I'll be calling you first!
Tim I'll be calling you first!
IG.
Registered
I've been doing track days for years. Street and track - the same bike. I even rode the bike to the track for a few years before I got the house and purchased a trailer. As fallenarch mentioned, I see no point of having a separate bike for the track. I love and enjoy aggressive riding, and don't care about lap times. I love my bike and that's what I want to ride. I personally find that the right balance between street riding and a few track days per season as circumstances allow works for me. As much as I appreciate track days and there are many good things about them so I won't repeat that, there is untold truth about them.
1. Every track day is a commitment, expense, time and effort. I could expand on that but will leave it short for now.
2. There is a greater chance of making a mistake, although rider's attitude helps to partially alleviate this issue.
3. There is a real chance to be taken out by someone else. In that respect, track organization you ride with makes a big difference and may partially alleviate this issue.
4. Not the right mood, bad weather, tired, hot, etc. - you still have to ride, otherwise all effort is wasted.
Most tracks don't have straightaways long enough to reach even 170, let alone more, and even if you do reach anything close to that it's only for a second or two before you have to shut it down and brake hard. In other words, road course is not a place to enjoy and appreciate top speeds - not designed for that.
I feel it's important to be honest with yourself and without illusions, and make a conscious decision and live with it. Having said that, and understanding all of this I crave for track days, and when unable to do them for a while just go a bit crazy.
Side point: I had been using EBC HH pads in the past, and one day a coach at the track recommended Vesrah pads. I did try and never used EBC HH since that time. An amazing feel and feedback, and braking power is the same or better than EBC HH. It was with these pads that I had the confidence to get the rear wiggling while braking hard - not consistently, but a few times.
Regarding insurance, I would check with the company first. Also, consider this: would you rather have a claim on record and possibility of your premiums going higher and paying that for a long time, or just pay a few hundred upfront to fix the bike?
IG: I too always used EBC Extreme Pro, and after switching to Vesrah's I like them bettter:
1. They DO have a wear notch that EBC's don't.
2. I felt like EBC's would 'glaze' over after using, and didn't have the same 'feel' after using them awhile; The Vesrah's seem to be more consistent across the life of the pad (just my observation and I could be totally wrong). I'll have a set of galfer's to try out soon enough (as I work on my top secret project that Tiller is very curious about)..
1. They DO have a wear notch that EBC's don't.
2. I felt like EBC's would 'glaze' over after using, and didn't have the same 'feel' after using them awhile; The Vesrah's seem to be more consistent across the life of the pad (just my observation and I could be totally wrong). I'll have a set of galfer's to try out soon enough (as I work on my top secret project that Tiller is very curious about)..
Vesrahs which ones sky?
IG.
Registered
IG: I too always used EBC Extreme Pro, and after switching to Vesrah's I like them bettter:
1. They DO have a wear notch that EBC's don't.
2. I felt like EBC's would 'glaze' over after using, and didn't have the same 'feel' after using them awhile; The Vesrah's seem to be more consistent across the life of the pad (just my observation and I could be totally wrong). I'll have a set of galfer's to try out soon enough (as I work on my top secret project that Tiller is very curious about)..
Your observation is right on the dot! I often pull the pads to make sure they are OK, and was always concerned with glazed look of EBC HH pads. Not so with Vesrah. The only small beef I have with Vesrah, that when pads are absolutely cold, they may have a bit less bite, but this lasts just a few seconds.
fallenarch, the exact pad type is: VD349JL, and here is the link to ebay item, and I looked at the name of the seller, and I think I bought from him. Keep in mind this is two pairs - good for both left and right side. Can't beat that price. Vesrah has the racing version of the same pads for almost double the price (IIRC the suffix will be RJL), but I think for us mere mortal riders JL pads are enough.
I don't know if you guys remember, but a few years back I was doing high speed runs, and glazed my EBC HH pads. By glazing I don't mean they just looked polished, but turned out they actually had melted the surface of the rotor and the melted metal got transferred to the pad. So, about 50% of the pad surface was pad material, and the other 50% was pure metal. One day, I was riding my bike to the track (didn't have a trailer yet), the traffic stopped in front of me, I started braking, but nothing was happening. I applied more effort at the lever, and after a couple of seconds of not slowing down, the brakes suddenly locked, and I went down right there on the highway. I know all of that after talking with EBC tech support, and figuring out what happened. I have the pictures somewhere, and the pads have silverish looking spots all over them. I sent the pictures to EBC and along with my input they were able to figure out what it was. It was in part my negligence of not checking the pads although I did notice degradation of performance earlrier. Anyway, EBC ended up sending me two sets of of EBC HH pads and two sets of EBC PRO - all for free.
IG.
Registered
Just wanted to add one important point... Every brake caliper performance will deteriorate if pistons are not cleaned regularly - ideally, every time prior to installing new pads, and BEFORE you push the pistons back in order to make room for new thicker pads. I found a great video I've seen years ago:
Brake Cleaning with Yamaha Factory Wrench Seamus Taaffe - YouTube[/url]
Brake dust and grime harden around every piston, making it harder to move, and may even seize it partially - reducing the feel at the lever, requiring more squeeze at the lever, distributing pressure unevenly across the brake pad which in turn may promote brake chatter/pulsation, destroying dust seals.
I am guilty of not doing it in the past, and now try to do it regularly - with just soapy water and a toothbrush. Then, can push pistons back easily by hand. Brakes feel noticeably better.
Brake dust and grime harden around every piston, making it harder to move, and may even seize it partially - reducing the feel at the lever, requiring more squeeze at the lever, distributing pressure unevenly across the brake pad which in turn may promote brake chatter/pulsation, destroying dust seals.
I am guilty of not doing it in the past, and now try to do it regularly - with just soapy water and a toothbrush. Then, can push pistons back easily by hand. Brakes feel noticeably better.
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