History Lesson

[Mr Brown]

If Noah's ark didn't exist and the Bible shouldn't be taken litterally then why should we believe any of it at all. I would not believe in something that part of it were true and other parts of it were false because then it becomes unreliable.
example- If someone says that Jesus was a great man but that he was not God then that statement would not hold up, because a great man in my book would not be a liar and that is what He would be because Jesus Himself said " I and my Father are one."

I didn't say Noah's ark didn't exist, I said there is no proof of it. The Bible has many factual errors. Does this mean that we should disregard its teachings entirely? I don't think so, but we are talking about a book which has been translated so many times that it is bound to have inaccuracies. An example is that in one of the psalms, the author writes along the lines of "As surely as the sun goes around the earth, God's love will be avaiable to you" Now, we know that the sun doesn't go around the earth at all, in fact the earth orbits the sun. Does this mean that God will no longer love us? Obviously this is not the case, but it is an example of the errors contained in the text of the Bible. As I said earlier, do you really believe that God took 7 consecutive 24 hour periods, working 6 and taking the last 1 off to create the world? That's ridiculous. God needed a day off after he created the world, but He's not taken one since?
Point is that the Bible is a road map for those wishing to live as Christians, and interesting reading for those who don't. It is not always accurate in its text, but you can get the point.

 

[dudewizr]

If Noah's ark didn't exist and the Bible shouldn't be taken litterally then why should we believe any of it at all. I would not believe in something that part of it were true and other parts of it were false because then it becomes unreliable.
example- If someone says that Jesus was a great man but that he was not God then that statement would not hold up, because a great man in my book would not be a liar and that is what He would be because Jesus Himself said " I and my Father are one."

I didn't say Noah's ark didn't exist, I said there is no proof of it. The Bible has many factual errors. Does this mean that we should disregard its teachings entirely? I don't think so, but we are talking about a book which has been translated so many times that it is bound to have inaccuracies. An example is that in one of the psalms, the author writes along the lines of "As surely as the sun goes around the earth, God's love will be avaiable to you" Now, we know that the sun doesn't go around the earth at all, in fact the earth orbits the sun. Does this mean that God will no longer love us? Obviously this is not the case, but it is an example of the errors contained in the text of the Bible. As I said earlier, do you really believe that God took 7 consecutive 24 hour periods, working 6 and taking the last 1 off to create the world? That's ridiculous. God needed a day off after he created the world, but He's not taken one since?
Point is that the Bible is a road map for those wishing to live as Christians, and interesting reading for those who don't. It is not always accurate in its text, but you can get the point.

Show me the Psalm. when quoting the bible you must be accurate. As far as saying "as surely as the sun goes around the earth, Gods love will be available to you" means that there is nowhere the sun doesn't shine on the earth. No part of th eearth is excluded from the sun light just no one is excluded from Gods love.

It's free love, God is bigger than us and we can explain it all, that's why it's so hard for people to beleive.

As far as taking the day off, he used the 7th day to celebrate what he had accomplished. we are to work hard for 6 and rest to observe what has been accomplished through hard work and diligence.

 

[Mr Brown]

I think the theory of creative evolution is dispelled by the laws of thermodynamics.  beleiving in any form of evolution requires way more faith than beleiving God created the heavens, light, sun moon and starts and everthing that walks and grows on the earth.  evolution cannot be proven so according to your Truth qualifications evolution can not be true.  and according to this same application to Gods existence you claim it cannot be proven and therefore cannot be true.  so maybe we don't actually exist.  Hmmmmmmmm.

Evolution requires no belief, the proof of it is all around you. It can be empirically observed. Evolution exists, there is no doubt. I never said God doesn't exist, read more carefully next time. I said nobody can PROVE that God does or doesn't exist. Hence we BELIEVE what ever we choose.

If you define evolution as technoological advances then I agre with you technologically we have evolved.  T say that generations before us were retards, or intellectually inferior I disagree.  Noah built the largest sea going vessels until 1884 a.d.

But if by evolution you suggest we are the result of Progressive Creation=God intervened at times to create or readjust the evolutionary process, or Transmutation=we started as a different organism and evolved.  These can certainly be scientifically disputed.

This is becoming a very cool thread.  A nice brain exercise.  You guys rock and youride Busas!  Can I get an Amen?

Evolution is the process of development and growth. This can be in any are. Technology is one of the tools we use in our evolution. Of course generations before us were intellectually inferior, or else they would have discovered/invented what we have.There is no scientific proof that Noah's ark ever existed, just a story.
Neither theory you state can be scientifically disputed, they are both just theories, neither has been proven, hence the results can not be disputed.

There are several documented sightings of the ark on Mt Arafat.  I suppose those are just stories though.  

I've got a story for you, I man tells everyone he is gonna set sail for a new land over the horizon.  They tell him it is impossible because they BELEIVE the Earth is flat and they have proof of it.  He'll fall off the dge of the Earth. He defies their theories and sets sail for a new land.  Today we give credit to Columbus for discovering America but only a little over 100 people witnessed it.  The son of God was crucified and resurrected after 3 days and was seen by a documented 512 people.  This cements the birth, death and resurrection of Christ, which lends support of the existence of God which in turn supports the recorded events in the Bible.

Once again, you're taking events and tying them into what you believe, and offering them as proof. The remains of the ship might be Noah's Ark, it has not been proven yet. Obviously those who BELIEVED the earth was flat were PROVEN wrong. Colombus is given credit for discovering America, but there were plenty of people here before he arrived. Since history is told from a Euro-centric perspective, he is hailed as a hero. If the people that were already here had driven off the Europeans that came, he would probably not be so popular.
What documents do you offer of the 512 people who saw the son of God, besides the Bible? You can't use a belief to prove itself, sorry. just because you believe it, doesn't make it true.

 

[dudewizr]

What documents do you offer of the 512 people who saw the son of God, besides the Bible? You can't use a belief to prove itself, sorry. just because you believe it, doesn't make it true.

What is to offer than Lincoln gave the Gettysburgh address? Eyewitness account.

The eyewitness account of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Thomas. You seem to downplay the ability of accurate record keeping because it was 2000 years ago and because their is no notarized statement of what they witnessed that they are all just fairy tales.

Besides that just 21 weeks ago records were discovered in a temple in Hebron uncovered by archaeologists that claim Noah did the equivelant of our filing (sort of a declaration of project) for a building permit to erect the ark. since noone had ever seen rain or a lake big enough for the ark they qualified it for a building since they couldn't conceive it floating. He had to do this so they wouldn't think he was building a temple to a God that they had no access to. In the document it states the size and dimensions which correlate with the size of the vessel sighted on Mt Arafat.

 

[GD4GVN]

In genesis giving the creation account the verses all start with and God said and end with and it was. All God has to do is speak it and it becomes. God also says His ways are not our ways, we can not understand how God thinks, He created us and no matter how much "evolving" we do we will not be able to reason God. Again I do not think God is controlled by time as we are, on the contrary, He controls our time.

 

[Mr Brown]

What documents do you offer of the 512 people who saw the son of God, besides the Bible? You can't use a belief to prove itself, sorry. just because you believe it, doesn't make it true.

What is to offer than Lincoln gave the Gettysburgh address?  Eyewitness account.  

The eyewitness account of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Thomas.  You seem to downplay the ability of accurate record keeping because it was 2000 years ago and because their is no notarized statement of what they witnessed that they are all just fairy tales.  

Besides that just 21 weeks ago records were discovered in a temple in Hebron uncovered by archaeologists that claim Noah did the equivelant of our filing (sort of a declaration of project) for a building permit to erect the ark.  since noone had ever seen rain or a lake big enough for the ark they qualified it for a building since they couldn't conceive it floating.  He had to do this so they wouldn't think he was building a temple to a God that they had no access to. In the document it states the size and dimensions which correlate with the size of the vessel sighted on Mt Arafat.

You're missing my point. You can't use the Bible as proof of what the Bible says. You can believe it to be true, but it cannot be proven.
This is becoming pointless. You keep using the same argument, but it is a fallacy. If you don't see that, there is no point in continuing to discuss. if you say fire is hot, I say prove it, you can't say it's hot because it's fire. You have to burn something to prove that it's hot.

 

[Mr Brown]

In genesis giving the creation account the verses all start with and God said and end with and it was. All God has to do is speak it and it becomes. God also says His ways are not our ways, we can not understand how God thinks, He created us and no matter how much "evolving" we do we will not be able to reason God. Again I do not think God is controlled by time as we are, on the contrary, He controls our time.

I agree, this is exactly why I say the Bible has inaccuracies. The individual details are not what is important, it's the point that matters.

 

[dudewizr]

I have yet to see these fallacies. You can burn paper and I can claim it's not burnt by saying it's just experienced a transference of energy. Because i say you can't prove it does it mean it's not true.

It's like a magic trick you will never convince me that people can disappear no matter how many times you show me the trick. Some belive it happens others don't. Only one of them is right. When believing in God you can't pick or choose which parts to beleive in the bible. All I can say is if I'm wrong then I lived a life trying to be a gentle, kind, sharing and loving person concerned about others. If you're wrong then congratualtions you win an all expenses paid trip to Eternal Hell. I can live with being wrong. One thing is a fact Jesus Christ was either a liar, lunatic or LORD. The wood is dry and the fires on you.

 

[Mr Brown]

I have yet to see these fallacies.  You can burn paper and I can claim it's not burnt by saying it's just experienced a transference of energy.  Because i say you can't prove it does it mean it's not true.

It's like a magic trick you will never convince me that people can disappear no matter how many times you show me the trick.  Some belive it happens others don't.  Only one of them is right.  When believing in God you can't pick or choose which parts to beleive in the bible.  All I can say is if I'm wrong then I lived a life trying to be a gentle, kind, sharing and loving person concerned about others.  If you're wrong then congratualtions you win an all expenses paid trip to Eternal Hell.  I can live with being wrong.  One thing is a fact Jesus Christ was either a liar, lunatic or LORD.  The wood is dry and the fires on you.

You can say it's not burnt all you want, it's still burnt. The proof of it is right there in front of you. A magic trick is an illusion. No sane, intelligent person really thinks that someone dissapeared, it simply looks that way.
The Bible was written a long time ago, by many people in several languages, none of which was English. If you really think that in all the translations, over thousands of years, what you read today is inerrant, there is no need for further discussion.
What you claim to be a fact about Jesus is not, it's a belief. If you can't tell the difference between the two, and obviously you can't, there's no point trying to explain it to you. I suggest you go ask your church leader to explain the difference between them. Maybe then you'll understand.
Why are you saying that if i don't believe in God I'll go to hell? if i don't believe in God, I don't believe in hell either, so why would I care. By the way, where exactly are Heaven and Hell located? can you point them out to me on a map? A globe? Show me by pointing up in the sky? No, you can't, they exist in the minds of those who choose to believe in them, there is no proof at all. What's the wood and fire bit all about?

 

[dudewizr]

I have yet to see these fallacies.  You can burn paper and I can claim it's not burnt by saying it's just experienced a transference of energy.  Because i say you can't prove it does it mean it's not true.

It's like a magic trick you will never convince me that people can disappear no matter how many times you show me the trick.  Some belive it happens others don't.  Only one of them is right.  When believing in God you can't pick or choose which parts to beleive in the bible.  All I can say is if I'm wrong then I lived a life trying to be a gentle, kind, sharing and loving person concerned about others.  If you're wrong then congratualtions you win an all expenses paid trip to Eternal Hell.  I can live with being wrong.  One thing is a fact Jesus Christ was either a liar, lunatic or LORD.  The wood is dry and the fires on you.

You can say it's not burnt all you want, it's still burnt. The proof of it is right there in front of you. A magic trick is an illusion. No sane, intelligent person really thinks that someone dissapeared, it simply looks that way.
The Bible was written a long time ago, by many people in several languages, none of which was English. If you really think that in all the translations, over thousands of years, what you read today is inerrant, there is no need for further discussion.
What you claim to be a fact about Jesus is not, it's a belief. If you can't tell the difference between the two, and obviously you can't, there's no point trying to explain it to you. I suggest you go ask your church leader to explain the difference between them. Maybe then you'll understand.
Why are you saying that if i don't believe in God I'll go to hell? if i don't believe in God, I don't believe in hell either, so why would I care. By the way, where exactly are Heaven and Hell located? can you point them out to me on a map? A globe? Show me by pointing up in the sky? No, you can't, they exist in the minds of those who choose to believe in them, there is no proof at all. What's the wood and fire bit all about?

Ok all this rambling about a fact vs. belief and what I believe can't be proven so it's not true and any proof that exists is only someones beliefs not facts what is a fact anyway and you don't believe it so it's not true because there's no proof of the facts but you believe that to be true and I don't because you have no facts to back it up so it's not true and you can't find it on a map so it doesn't exist so this happy little world we're continues to slander and downgrade my beliefs because the facts are myths and nobody believes it. whewwwwwwww had to take a breath. see where this is going. you don't believe, i do and don't require facts that is why it's called faith and that is where the reward lies within. that is why God decided to save us by grace through faith in him and not by any thing we can do. set a 3 year old on the counter and tell him to jump you will catch him, if he does it's not because of any imperical facts that his safety is assured. he simply has faith in you that you will catch him. the wood being dried and the fires on you. means as Paul told the people of Corinth "I will not have ye ignorant" after he taught them of the gospel of Christ they no longer had any excuses for living in sin. some have heard the gospel and their ignorance removed therefore(the wood is dried) and now it will be subjected to the day of fire on judgement day. They can no longer claim not hearing the gospel as an excuse and must live with those choices. or as others put it "sup to ya bro beleive what ya want" i hope your right.

For what it's worth I enjoyed this debate and appreciate all the viewpoints, it's what I live for, Thankyou. My job here is done I'm out. Peace.

 

[Mr Brown]

Dudewizr:
If you had taken the time to read the posts, and removed your blinders long enough to understand them, you would know that I do believe. As I suspected, you don't want to discuss, you want to preach. You are incapable of separating the discussion of proof vs. belief from religion. Then, you proceed to judge me. Christianity teaches us not to judge others, that's Gods place (or did you skip that part?). You must not be very secure in your beliefs if you cannot discuss with intelligence other options. I pity you and others like you who blindly follow what they are taught, without considering it for themselves.
For the final time, you cannot quote Bible verses to prove the validity of the Bible. preach away, you'll find that more people will pay attention to what your message is if you understand it a little better yourself.

 

[DAB]

It's always been a sticking point for me with Christianity that there seems to be a reluctance to consider new/alternate information and try to integrate it into the system of belief. While the basic philosophy is sound (as it is in most other religions) it still uses the "workshop manual" that was passed down a long time ago, and that contains a lot of out-of-date or innaccurate information.

One of the attractions of Science is that it is prepared to modify its "manuals" based upon research and experimentation. Otherwise, for example, we'd all still consider the world to be flat:

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

Faith shouldn't prevent someone from maintaining an inquiring mind. And they shouldn't be afraid to adjust their beliefs if evidence suggests it's in their best interests. Man's evolution to this point has been dependant upon him putting his brain to work, challenging his environment, not just accepting it.

Obviously the "churches" don't want the faithful to question their beliefs, because that makes their congregations difficult to control (and therefore hard to maintain their membership.) But that's a human reason for not questioning, not a God-mandated reason.

The original "message" has been polluted by human interference in my opinion.

 

[Mr Brown]

It's always been a sticking point for me with Christianity that there seems to be a reluctance to consider new/alternate information and try to integrate it into the system of belief. While the basic philosophy is sound (as it is in most other religions) it still uses the "workshop manual" that was passed down a long time ago, and that contains a lot of out-of-date or innaccurate information.

One of the attractions of Science is that it is prepared to modify its "manuals" based upon research and experimentation. Otherwise, for example, we'd all still consider the world to be flat:

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

Faith shouldn't prevent someone from maintaining an inquiring mind. And they shouldn't be afraid to adjust their beliefs if evidence suggests it's in their best interests. Man's evolution to this point has been dependant upon him putting his brain to work, challenging his environment, not just accepting it.

Obviously the "churches" don't want the faithful to question their beliefs, because that makes their congregations difficult to control (and therefore hard to maintain their membership.) But that's a human reason for not questioning, not a God-mandated reason.

The original "message" has been polluted by human interference in my opinion.

I agree completely. There are few things more frustrating than listening to a faith addict. Televangelists are the worst. I was raised to question everything, anybody that is worth listening to will be able to explain their point, anything worth believing will be clear. There is no "because I said so, that's why" in the world outside your parents house. If there is, you are far to gullible.

 

[jerseybusa]

OK. With all this god talk, I would just like to interject a few things.

1. The bible must be read in context to understand it (Psalm 14 chapter 1 says "that only a fool believes in God") so if you stopped reading at this pouint it would be settled.

2. Mr Brown -- although I am a deist -- I like the way you explain to read the "stories" of the bible and then get a point. I wish more fundamentalists would see a rounder (more open minded) view of the bible and religion as a whole.

3. How big was the flood that Noah built his ark for? If it was so huge that it wiped out everything (except 2 of every animal -- that would fit) how are there so many species on this Earth? 300 cubits is only 450 feet long (roughly) not a lot of room for all the animals, let alone all the plants.

4. When did Jesus ever say he was god or a god? I believe that the people during that time just called him their saviour.

5. This is not a joke -- How do we know what Paul wrote in letters to the various tribes of his day? Were those people instrumental in writting the bible also?

6. Why do are we missing 20 years of Jesus' life? and Why was he the ONLY 30 year old Jewish man not married?

 

[jerseybusa]

Can someone tell me what a miracle is? Also, an example would be nice. Totally serious with this inquiry also.

 

[dudewizr]

OK.  With all this god talk, I would just like to interject a few things.  

1.  The bible must be read in context to understand it (Psalm 14 chapter 1 says "that only a fool believes in God")  so if you stopped reading at this pouint it would be settled.  

2.  Mr Brown -- although I am a deist -- I like the way you explain to read the "stories" of the bible and then get a point.  I wish more fundamentalists would see a rounder (more open minded) view of the bible and religion as a whole.

3.  How big was the flood that Noah built his ark for?  If it was so huge that it wiped out everything (except 2 of every animal -- that would fit) how are there so many species on this Earth?  300 cubits is only 450 feet long (roughly) not a lot of room for all the animals, let alone all the plants.

4.  When did Jesus ever say he was god or a god?  I believe that the people during that time just called him their saviour.

5.  This is not a joke -- How do we know what Paul wrote in letters to the various tribes of his day?  Were those people instrumental in writting the bible also?

6.  Why do are we missing 20 years of Jesus' life? and Why was he the ONLY 30 year old Jewish man not married?

the amount of space required to haul all of the animals (35,000species) would be equivelant to 2 trains hauling 73 two-decked cars. The ark had a carrying capacity of 522 stock cars.

450ft long, 75ft wide and 45ft high is equivelant to 20 standard college basketball courts with 97,000 sq. ft of deck space and weighing in at 14,000 tons.

2trains of 73 two-decked cars = 146 two-decked cars each carrying 240 animal of the size of a sheep.

 

[jerseybusa]

450ft long, 75ft wide and 45ft high is equivelant to 20 standard college basketball courts with 97,000 sq. ft of deck space and weighing in at 14,000 tons.

2trains of 73 two-decked cars = 146 two-decked cars each carrying 240 animal of the size of a sheep.

But is there not more than 35,000 species (not all the size of sheep (unless that is the average size) -- also there were at least 24 people on board, right? Didn't the ark passengers start the 12 tribes of Israel?

 

[GD4GVN]

Obviously the "churches" don't want the faithful to question their beliefs, because that makes their congregations difficult to control (and therefore hard to maintain their membership.) But that's a human reason for not questioning, not a God-mandated reason.

The original "message" has been polluted by human interference in my opinion.

My church teaches exactly what the Bible says, "study to show thyself approved." So your statement is a very generalizes one. And also Jesus did say " I and my Father are one," so take that for what you may, I was enjoying this discussion until these few posts when it seems like you all are getting on the defensive side so i guess it is time to end it , Thanks and have a great evening.

 

[Relsek]

I think the theory of creative evolution is dispelled by the laws of thermodynamics.  beleiving in any form of evolution requires way more faith than beleiving God created the heavens, light, sun moon and starts and everthing that walks and grows on the earth.  evolution cannot be proven so according to your Truth qualifications evolution can not be true.  and according to this same application to Gods existence you claim it cannot be proven and therefore cannot be true.  so maybe we don't actually exist.  Hmmmmmmmm.

Evolution requires no belief, the proof of it is all around you. It can be empirically observed. Evolution exists, there is no doubt. I never said God doesn't exist, read more carefully next time. I said nobody can PROVE that God does or doesn't exist. Hence we BELIEVE what ever we choose.

If you define evolution as technoological advances then I agre with you technologically we have evolved.  T say that generations before us were retards, or intellectually inferior I disagree.  Noah built the largest sea going vessels until 1884 a.d.

But if by evolution you suggest we are the result of Progressive Creation=God intervened at times to create or readjust the evolutionary process, or Transmutation=we started as a different organism and evolved.  These can certainly be scientifically disputed.

This is becoming a very cool thread.  A nice brain exercise.  You guys rock and youride Busas!  Can I get an Amen?

Evolution is the process of development and growth. This can be in any are. Technology is one of the tools we use in our evolution. Of course generations before us were intellectually inferior, or else they would have discovered/invented what we have.There is no scientific proof that Noah's ark ever existed, just a story.
Neither theory you state can be scientifically disputed, they are both just theories, neither has been proven, hence the results can not be disputed.

There are several documented sightings of the ark on Mt Arafat.  I suppose those are just stories though.  

I've got a story for you, I man tells everyone he is gonna set sail for a new land over the horizon.  They tell him it is impossible because they BELEIVE the Earth is flat and they have proof of it.  He'll fall off the dge of the Earth. He defies their theories and sets sail for a new land.  Today we give credit to Columbus for discovering America but only a little over 100 people witnessed it.  The son of God was crucified and resurrected after 3 days and was seen by a documented 512 people.  This cements the birth, death and resurrection of Christ, which lends support of the existence of God which in turn supports the recorded events in the Bible.

Once again, you're taking events and tying them into what you believe, and offering them as proof. The remains of the ship might be Noah's Ark, it has not been proven yet. Obviously those who BELIEVED the earth was flat were PROVEN wrong. Colombus is given credit for discovering America, but there were plenty of people here before he arrived. Since history is told from a Euro-centric perspective, he is hailed as a hero. If the people that were already here had driven off the Europeans that came, he would probably not be so popular.
What documents do you offer of the 512 people who saw the son of God, besides the Bible? You can't use a belief to prove itself, sorry. just because you believe it, doesn't make it true.

Were they wrong before they were proven wrong?

Kev

 

[Relsek]

OK.  With all this god talk, I would just like to interject a few things.  

1.  The bible must be read in context to understand it (Psalm 14 chapter 1 says "that only a fool believes in God")  so if you stopped reading at this pouint it would be settled.  

Where did you get your bible, the satanist store? Mine says in psalm 14:1 that a fool says "there is no God"