Front Wheel Bearing Question

[celticBandit]

Thanks Tony

I found the OEM bearings that I had to remove, were the same as yours.
I ended up wrecking the spacer to get them out.
I couldn't get a blind bearing puller in there to get them out either.
In the new bearings I have installed, the spacer moves a little side to side if I press on it.
I assume it will also tighten up when the axle is installed.

I would like to hear Bogus wade in again.

Good luck!

Sounds like you have it installed correctly. Hope I can get it done up like that.

 

[mike1180]

Bump.
Ping Mr. Bogus.

 

[celticBandit]

I sent an email to Haynes yesterday, no reply yet, I won't hold my breath:

Hi,

I have been using your Suzuki Hayabusa GSX1300R Manual for removing
and installing my front wheel bearings, and I believe I may have found
a problem in your text.

On re-insertion of the bearings the Haynes manual (page 7-21) says to
use an old bearing or socket against the outer race of the bearing to
drive it home until fully seated. However, the Suzuki manual says to
use a bearing puller, see attached file. A bearing puller will bring
both races in together.

The Suzuki manual shows a slight clearance between the inner lip/edge
of the wheel hub and the out race of the bearing. There is no clearance
between the inner race and the spacer. If a bearing puller is used,
then when the inner race meets the spacer, the outer race will also be
inline.

Firstly, the left hand bearing should be fully inserted. Then the
spacer put in place. But, the spacer is longer than the distance
between the lip/retaining edges on the wheel hub. Therefore, if the
right hand bearing outer race is hammered home fully using a socket,
the inner race will be pushed outwards by the spacer. This will place a
lateral force on the bearing and over time will cause
brinneling/notchiness. I know, because I followed your instructions and
it has cost me about 100Euro in bearings and seals in the last year.

I have had discussions about this on the Hayabusa.org website, and
others agree. See link:
https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/general-bike-related-topics/117125-front-
wheel-bearing-question.html

I would appreciate if you could confirm this. Hopefully, Haynes might
review this manual and alter it in future.

Regards
Tony O******

 

[mike1180]

I sent an email to Haynes yesterday, no reply yet, I won't hold my breath:

Hi,

I have been using your Suzuki Hayabusa GSX1300R Manual for removing
and installing my front wheel bearings, and I believe I may have found
a problem in your text.

On re-insertion of the bearings the Haynes manual (page 7-21) says to
use an old bearing or socket against the outer race of the bearing to
drive it home until fully seated. However, the Suzuki manual says to
use a bearing puller, see attached file. A bearing puller will bring
both races in together.

The Suzuki manual shows a slight clearance between the inner lip/edge
of the wheel hub and the out race of the bearing. There is no clearance
between the inner race and the spacer. If a bearing puller is used,
then when the inner race meets the spacer, the outer race will also be
inline.

Firstly, the left hand bearing should be fully inserted. Then the
spacer put in place. But, the spacer is longer than the distance
between the lip/retaining edges on the wheel hub. Therefore, if the
right hand bearing outer race is hammered home fully using a socket,
the inner race will be pushed outwards by the spacer. This will place a
lateral force on the bearing and over time will cause
brinneling/notchiness. I know, because I followed your instructions and
it has cost me about 100Euro in bearings and seals in the last year.

I have had discussions about this on the Hayabusa.org website, and
others agree. See link:
https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/general-bike-related-topics/117125-front-
wheel-bearing-question.html

I would appreciate if you could confirm this. Hopefully, Haynes might
review this manual and alter it in future.

Regards
Tony O******

That should bring forth a response of some type.
Good work!

 

[outlawbusa]

Some very good information here~!~

Boy, we should be glad SOMEONE reads the instructions~!~

Glad you brought this up, saving for future reference

 

[Mr Bogus]

Sorry missed this...

I would think if you can get the races to touch the spacer without loading them? should be ok.. it would be impossible to get bearings pressed in so far as to hold spacer without side loading the bearings..(Read: spacer should float a bit)..

removing bearings.. It is entirely possible to remove a bearing with a hammer and NOT damage the thing.. beating it senseless? sure you will kill any bearing but bearings are designed to take a lot of abuse (super hard materials)..

if you spin the bearing in your hand and it is smooth? probably just fine.. if you spin it and it clicks, has notches or feels rough at all? TOAST...

I have removed literally hundreds of bearings with a hammer and only killed a few.. (using wrong device against bearing is the big sin) Take your time and make sure bearing does not "rock" sideways in housing and get jammed...

 

[re2ned]

Now me thinks, I've got it.....sort of.

After looking at the picture some more, and as described by others, both the inner races will butt up against the spacer. I'm diggin' what Mr. Bogus was saying. As perfect a manufacturing process can be, there is going to be a bit of varience and this would explain why there is no set clearance for that gap. As long as you're using a surface that contacts both the inner and outer races at the same time, you're safe.

HOWEVER!!! If the inner diameter of the spacer is identical to that of the inner races, how do you avoid what celticBandit and mike1180 did and wreck the spacer? My guess is this (and I pulling out a huge straw outta my arse). Depending on the bearing manufacturer there could be a slight bevel on the inner race that would allow you to start a blind puller (however I would t hink this still may wreck the spacer a bit since it isn't a hardened metal like the races would be.

 

[mike1180]

Now me thinks, I've got it.....sort of.

After looking at the picture some more, and as described by others, both the inner races will butt up against the spacer. I'm diggin' what Mr. Bogus was saying. As perfect a manufacturing process can be, there is going to be a bit of varience and this would explain why there is no set clearance for that gap. As long as you're using a surface that contacts both the inner and outer races at the same time, you're safe.

HOWEVER!!! If the inner diameter of the spacer is identical to that of the inner races, how do you avoid what celticBandit and mike1180 did and wreck the spacer? My guess is this (and I pulling out a huge straw outta my arse). Depending on the bearing manufacturer there could be a slight bevel on the inner race that would allow you to start a blind puller (however I would t hink this still may wreck the spacer a bit since it isn't a hardened metal like the races would be.

My previous link to the All Balls site describes brinneling.
This would happen even with a blind bearing puller.
The force is on the inner race pulling outwards.
IMO if you take the bearings out, replace them.

 

[celticBandit]

My previous link to the All Balls site describes brinneling.
This would happen even with a blind bearing puller.
The force is on the inner race pulling outwards.
IMO if you take the bearings out, replace them.

I agree, If you remove bearings, replace them. Not worth the risk to use old ones.

 

[Bob Allevo]

I hope no one ever uses a hammer to install bearings.
FWIW, a bearing cartridge as shown is very typical. That is, the inner races are mounted solid and tightened that way. Then the outer race of ONE bearing is clamped solid. This fixes the axial location of the pack. The second outer race is allowed to "float". This allows for the difference in the linear coefficient of thermal expansion between the steel axle, spacers, and bearings as compared to the aluminum wheel.
ie: The metals shrink and grow with changes in temperature and they do it by different amounts because of the difference in meterials.
If both the inner and outer races were fixed, the bearings would go bye bye.
HTH - Bob

 

[mike1180]

That all sounds really technical....but I did get the "don't use a hammer part"
Thanks!

 

[Mr Bogus]

Now me thinks, I've got it.....sort of.

After looking at the picture some more, and as described by others, both the inner races will butt up against the spacer. I'm diggin' what Mr. Bogus was saying. As perfect a manufacturing process can be, there is going to be a bit of varience and this would explain why there is no set clearance for that gap. As long as you're using a surface that contacts both the inner and outer races at the same time, you're safe.

HOWEVER!!! If the inner diameter of the spacer is identical to that of the inner races, how do you avoid what celticBandit and mike1180 did and wreck the spacer? My guess is this (and I pulling out a huge straw outta my arse). Depending on the bearing manufacturer there could be a slight bevel on the inner race that would allow you to start a blind puller (however I would t hink this still may wreck the spacer a bit since it isn't a hardened metal like the races would be.

If you nick or damage the inner spacer, it really should not matter as it is not "dimensional" as far as being a "critical" tolerance item.. meaning it can vary as much as the extra space in the hub will allow for the bearing to move inwards.. you just gotta hit the spacer before the bearing bottoms..

Hammers and bearings.. This is sort of a voodoo move.. but if you beat a bearing out of the race by hitting the inner race (thus the force is transmitted through the balls to the outer race) you stand a very good chance of "killing" the bearing. A blind bearing puller will exert pulling pressure with out the big forces a hammer will induce..

I have a collection of "brass" drifts (most techs do) for driving bearings out. You will need to make sure you hit the race that is in contact with the bore. (outer race in this case)

I would have to agree with the above though.. replace the bearings, they are not that $$ and peace of mind is nice..

Now, would I blow $400 on ceramic bearings? only if I was a heads up drag racer or a LSR racer.. Really the benefit derived is so small that I would bet most guys could not tell you if they were installed or not.. I have run the $$$ bearings and I think it was a total waste of fundage.. (ask your local bike shop what they thing about them for the street, I bet they agree, I know a couple other builders here share this opinion)

They are sexy but just about like having a girl wear Victoria Secrets under old sweats... only you know they and what good do they do?

Tomorrow we cover long and short fiber lubricants...

 

[celticBandit]

 

[Benesesso]

Jest for the record---.

 

[mike1180]

Jest for the record---.

He looks like my dad.

 

[celticBandit]

Hey, Just thought I'd post the reply that Haynes sent. Still didn't answer my question about their manual being incorrect.

Tony,

I have read your e-mail and the forum correspondence with interest.

Clearly a gap between the bearing and hub on one side is intentional and ensures the clamping force between the axle head and its nut bears on the two bearing inner races and centre spacer, and not across the hollow wheel casting.

It does seem that opinions differ on how best to install the right-hand bearing to ensure that its inner and outer races do not become misaligned. Whether using Suzuki's service tool, a home-made drawbolt equivalent or some form of bearing driver, the important consideration is that the bearing is seated when its inner race contacts the centre spacer and of course that this is achieved without dislodging the left-hand bearing.


Penny Cox
Motorcycle Editorial Manager

 

[mike1180]

Hey, Just thought I'd post the reply that Haynes sent. Still didn't answer my question about their manual being incorrect.

Tony,

I have read your e-mail and the forum correspondence with interest.

Clearly a gap between the bearing and hub on one side is intentional and ensures the clamping force between the axle head and its nut bears on the two bearing inner races and centre spacer, and not across the hollow wheel casting.

It does seem that opinions differ on how best to install the right-hand bearing to ensure that its inner and outer races do not become misaligned. Whether using Suzuki's service tool, a home-made drawbolt equivalent or some form of bearing driver, the important consideration is that the bearing is seated when its inner race contacts the centre spacer and of course that this is achieved without dislodging the left-hand bearing.


Penny Cox
Motorcycle Editorial Manager

Thanks for posting this.
It does seem like a common sense answer.
I fiugure that the wheel can be put on in either direction, and as long as there is a space between the spacer, it is done right.

 

[Margusxx]

This gap is meant for heat changes on axle, every axle what has two bearings on, has this gap. Otherwise if axle is warming up, bearings get loads of pressure, thats why one bealing is "floating.

 

[ducnut]

I was puzzled by this gap to the point that I contacted the bearing manufacturer. However having some experiance with rebuilding pumps and other equipment the first thing we do when we test run them is watch the temp. of the bearings. When I took my front wheel off I noticed that the spacer moved side to side freely. When I installed the new bearing I left it loose, but of course it was a guess of how loose as compared to the stock bearing. I took the bike for a ten mile ride and checked bearing temps for front and back(I changed both wheels). The front was about 89 degrees and the back was 107. These temps were taken using a laser gun shooting in to the holes of the wheels so I could get as close as possible to the bearing location. With the higher temp. in the rear I figure I had left too much gap and the inner races were being pulled off center. I removed the rear wheel and snugged the spacer up by pressing the bearing in a touch more. After a test ride the temp was up about 10 degrees. I recorrected the free play leaving it a little loose and the temp went back down to about 105. I have the correct tools to install the bearings and a factory service manual so I have faith that things are right. A few weeks ago I had Ryan Schnitz dyno and map my bike and with that load on the rear wheel the temp never went above 105. Even the bearing manufacturer felt the rear temp would be higher because of the higher loads on the rear.

 

[RedBusarider]

I was puzzled by this gap to the point that I contacted the bearing manufacturer. However having some experiance with rebuilding pumps and other equipment the first thing we do when we test run them is watch the temp. of the bearings. When I took my front wheel off I noticed that the spacer moved side to side freely. When I installed the new bearing I left it loose, but of course it was a guess of how loose as compared to the stock bearing. I took the bike for a ten mile ride and checked bearing temps for front and back(I changed both wheels). The front was about 89 degrees and the back was 107. These temps were taken using a laser gun shooting in to the holes of the wheels so I could get as close as possible to the bearing location. With the higher temp. in the rear I figure I had left too much gap and the inner races were being pulled off center. I removed the rear wheel and snugged the spacer up by pressing the bearing in a touch more. After a test ride the temp was up about 10 degrees. I recorrected the free play leaving it a little loose and the temp went back down to about 105. I have the correct tools to install the bearings and a factory service manual so I have faith that things are right. A few weeks ago I had Ryan Schnitz dyno and map my bike and with that load on the rear wheel the temp never went above 105. Even the bearing manufacturer felt the rear temp would be higher because of the higher loads on the rear.

Just curious, you have a newer bike if I'm not mistaken. So why did you feel you needed to change the bearings?