Front Wheel Bearing Question

[celticBandit]

Hi Guys, I am replacing my Front wheel bearings and I noticed that the manual shows a bit of clearance between the right hand internal lip on the wheel and bearing(See Picture below). It looks like this is to make sure that the internal races on both bearings are just touching the spacer but the right hand bearing is not driven all the way home.

Has anyone else noticed this, and how do you measure the clearance and make sure the exact clearance is achieved without pushing the bearing in too far. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[celticBandit]

I've been searching and I see a lot of posts where people say they get a squeek after reinstalling bearings. Here's what I think is the problem:

The manual(suzuki & haynes) says install the left bearing first. Then install the spacer, then the right bearing. The left bearing goes all the way home. But if you hit the right bearing all the way home the spacer pushes out the inner race and the outer race goes all the way in.So you are putting sideways pressure on the bearing and it will be more difficult to turn and will eventually squeek and then fail.

The clearance shown above for the right hand bearing is absolutely vital. If the clearance is good, then the Axle lip will push the right hand bearing inner race, the axle nut will push the left hand inner race, and the two bearings will sandwich the bearing spacer in the hub.

I might be wrong so please chime in if you think so. But I reckon if you installed bearings without this clearance then you might be in trouble.

Tony

 

[Mr Bogus]

I gotta go with Celtic... looks like if you are not careful, you will load the bearing sideways.. it would appear that the inner and outer races are pretty much flush machined? if so, the first time you install the wheel, the compression from tightening the axle nut should drive the inner and outer races into proper position.. The key here is to allow the install to finish the bearing press..

How to gauge the amount of clearance? while installing the bearing, stop a bit short maybe .100-.200" or just short of the spacer.. The first time the wheel is installed and the axle is torqued correctly, it likely drives the bearing into the correct position..

you might be able to get a visual on the bearing location, install the wheel one time and then remove the wheel again and see if the bearing was pressed home.. if so? done deal..

 

[celticBandit]

Not sure if the wheel install would pull the bearing into place.

Of course this wouldn't be a problem if you used the proper bearing puller tool. It would lie flat against both races when pulling in the bearing, like in the picture above. The only time this clearance would be a problem is when you use the "old socket 'n hammer" method of installing the bearing.

But, question is, how many shops do you reckon would actually do it with the correct tool. I've got a feeling that many of the problems I saw when using search were caused by doing it wrong. I know because I did it on saturday and ruined my two new bearing and when I tried to get them out I ruined the spacer too because they were wedged up against it. Waiting for a new spacer now before I re-install.

Just thought I'd post this incase anyone else is seeing bearing problems.

Tony

 

[Mr Bogus]

judging from the pics, the outer spacers are fitting pretty much flush against inner/outer races.. Would need to have it out in my hand to see if this is the case..

The inner spacer appears only to touch the "inner" race (again, need to pick it up and look at it).. if that is in fact how it is.. then you want the outer spacers to pull the bearing home (keeping inner/outer races aligned)...

The last thing you want is the inner spacer to hit that inner race BEFORE the outer spacer hits both races.. (will preload the inner race outward while the outer race is too far into the hub with no way to be pushed outboard by the inner spacer)

 

[celticBandit]

Yep, your right in what you're saying. Oh, by the way, the picture above shows a bearing puller pulling both of the races in and it keeps both races flush. With an axle in there, the lip on the axle only puts pressure on the inner races, so when inserting the axle the spacer is sandwiched between the inner races only, and the inner races are sandwiched between the axle and nut.

Do you think if I hammered it it until the inner race was nearly at the spacer, then assembling the axle would bring the outer race in line also? Or maybe I just need a bearing puller, homemade

 

[Mr Bogus]

here is what I was trying to verbalize.. see if it makes sense..

 

[Mr Bogus]

Yep, your right in what you're saying. Oh, by the way, the picture above shows a bearing puller pulling both of the races in and it keeps both races flush. With an axle in there, the lip on the axle only puts pressure on the inner races, so when inserting the axle the spacer is sandwiched between the inner races only, and the inner races are sandwiched between the axle and nut.

Do you think if I hammered it it until the inner race was nearly at the spacer, then assembling the axle would bring the outer race in line also? Or maybe I just need a bearing puller, homemade

if you use a hammer, you need to make sure that the what ever you are driving with, rides correctly on the inner and outer race precisely.. (IE machined surface on machined surface).. I personally would prefer to use a nut/bolt setup with machined flat washer or the like to pull the bearings together..

however in the right hands? a hammer would probably work ok as long as you do not over drive the races home..

 

[celticBandit]

Yep, that makes sense. I think I need to make a stirdy bearing puller from a bolt and some washers. The old socket 'n hammer is too dodgy and makes it more likely that you'll mess it up. Hopefully some guys will see this and think twice when hammering in bearings.

Thanks a million for the help Bogus, I owe you a beer.

 

[Mr Bogus]

anytime... just make sure that the washers have a "flat ground" side to bearing... stamped washer might not be a good idea...

BTW, I am sure glad you looked this up.. I would have whacked a set of bearings in without even peeking at manual and ended up hosed..... (to many years working as a tech gets a guy overly complacent about something seemingly so simple..)

 

[celticBandit]

BTW.....just looked at the rear wheel construction and it has a similar clearance.

 

[dadofthree]

 

[mike1180]

If you hammer on a bearing you can cause what is known as brinneling:

All Balls Products

REMOVING WHEEL BEARINGS:
When you knock a bearing out of a wheel, for chroming, powdercoating, etc., you are fundamentally destroying that bearing. In fact, there's no other way to get it out without destroying it because it's pressed in on the outer diameter but access to the bearing is from the inner diameter. So you're putting an impact force across the balls of the bearing, which damages it. It's called loading across the bearing races. You're putting little microscopic dents into the ball and the race, and over time they get aggravated. The technical term is brinneling; when you put a shock force on an outer race to an inner race across the balls, that's what you get.

Here is my home made tool for installing them:

 

[proud dad]

Put the bearings in the freezer for a couple hours before you install them.It shrinks them a couple of thousands.Install the left first and seat it to the hub just like the pic.Install sleeve THEN get the other bearing out of the freezer and install it.Make sure the left side stayed seated.Your axle will be your best tool to line up the sleeve,don't damage the threads.Install wheel on the bike and torque axle,back off torque,spin the wheel then retorque.[always on a bearing change of any kind that requires torque]Wheel should spin freely.
If you pick up a threaded rod like Mike has there [works good] Be sure the left side is seated before you install wheel.

 

[celticBandit]

Thanks guys, I have got the right stuff for making a puller similar to what Mike has above. Just waiting on delivery of a new bearing spacer because I messed up the old one trying to get the bearings out.

How much pressure should I put on the nut when tightening in the right hand bearing? Does the bearing need to be tight up against the spacer or just about touching it? I reckon I shouldn't tighten up too much and when the axle goes on it will bring it in line the extra couple of thou'.

Thanks again for all the help. This forum rocks.

 

[re2ned]

I'm glad someone posted this up because this has been annoying me ever since I changed my bearings out last year because to me it doesn't make sense.

I did use a contraption similar to that of mike1180's in order to reinstall the front bearings. I did press the left side bearing in as far as possible. I was also aware of the clearance that the right side bearing had to have.

However, from what I gather with the posts, you're depending on the torquing of the axle to eventually drive the bearing to it's proper place. If what celticbandit says it true (The clearance shown above for the right hand bearing is absolutely vital. If the clearance is good, then the Axle lip will push the right hand bearing inner race, the axle nut will push the left hand inner race, and the two bearings will sandwich the bearing spacer in the hub.) I would think you would get "brinneling" as mike1180 described because the outer race will not migrate along with the inner race.

I do remember the very first time I took both the front and rear wheels off the spacer was not sandwiched between the inner races and was almost to the point of dropping completely out of the plane of the inner races. To me this would indicate that the races did NOT sandwich the spacer. Of course I could have had the guy who was putting the bike together at 17:00 on a Friday too.

So now, when I ride and I lean I can hear the bearings (at least I think that's the sound I hear). It's like a low hum that progressivley gets louder the further I lean. After reading the post, I almost think it's because of this "brinneling" concept. In my case I think I left too much clearance and when I torqued down the axle it squeezed the inner races closer together while the outer races stayed. So in essence the bearings are rubbing the races harder that what they should be.

So........

I ordered another set of bearing wanting to take another stab at this, however, I'm still not sure on the amount of clearance or how to measure it and why it's there.

 

[Mr Bogus]

I am thinking (and could be wrong) but I doubt that there is a set clearance for that gap.. I think what the point of the space is, is to allow the bearing to be pressed into proper position against the inner spacer only.. I would bet that the gap varies from bike to bike and is irrelevant, you would probably find that the amount of clearance changes from hub to hub assy..

What is relevant is that the bearing is "pressed" into place against the inner spacer with both the inner and outer races at the same time with a flat machined surface.. (to keep inner and outer races aligned properly)

I think the tool is the way to fly but I see a number of other options to make it work..

make your own press with a machined surface to press against both the inner and outer races at the same time (a long bolt or all thread)

or support the left bearing (bottomed out) and drive the other bearing in with a bearing driver that rides on both inner and outer races at same time until it contacts spacer (need have the right touch for driving bearings in to a stop)

 

[mike1180]

I have been watching this thread with great interest.
I have 2 sets of OEM wheels that I have had chromed.
In that process the direction arrows have been ground off, making it harder to tell left and right.
It has also required replacing the wheel bearings in both sets.
I did not adhere to the instructions in the Suzuki manual (also the same in the Clymer manual) and I will explain why.
1. I feel that the design of the wheel is such that it would require both front wheel bearings (left and right) to finally come to rest with their outer races both flush (completely seated), and both inner races of each bearing pressing somewhat against the spacer.
If not then even if the axle was torqued to the proper specs, forces on the wheel would be able to cause the bearings to move about a little in a back and forth motion, within their recesses in the hub.
The inner races would be flush with the spacer, but if either one of the bearings was not seated flush, the whole affair could move sideways.
2. If the bearings are installed using the tool (which exerts force across the inner and outer race equally), then there is no chance of brinneling.
3. If however, the axle is used to move the right side bearing in the last bit until it is fully seated, then because the axle is only exerting force on the inner race, and the outer race is exerting resistance, then brinneling could occur.
4. I can’t see any difference between exerting the required torque on the axle to seat the right bearing, or using the tool to seat it to the same torque, except the tool puts the torque across the entire bearing face, minimizing the chance of brinneling.


So I installed the bearings, first one then the spacer, then the second and torqued them in with the tool, ( the same torque as the axle would require) making sure the spacer was exactly centered (or I would not get the axle in).

I have about 17,000 miles on a set done this way and no problems.
OH and BTW, the Haynes manual agrees with me and does not want a “clearance space” left on either bearing. (see below)

Glad your back Mr. Bogus, I value your thoughts on this.

 

[celticBandit]

So I installed the bearings, first one then the spacer, then the second and torqued them in with the tool, ( the same torque as the axle would require) making sure the spacer was exactly centered (or I would not get the axle in).

I have about 17,000 miles on a set done this way and no problems.
OH and BTW, the Haynes manual agrees with me and does not want a “clearance spaceâ€￾ left on either bearing. (see below)

Hi Mike, I also did it this way about 10,000 miles ago using a socket and hammer.When I took off the wheel last Saturday(for a new tyre), the spacer was wedged so hard between the bearings and the bearings would not turn freely. The spacer would not move to the side so I could knock the bearings out. I ruined the spacer with a drift just trying to get purchase on the bearing to remove it. New spacer is on order. But when I did get the bearing out, the right one had a slight notchy feel to it(brinneling?). I guess, no, it wasn't going to fail catostrophically but it was starting to go bad.

So I got new bearings and drove the left one home fully.I then noticed that the spacer is actually longer than the distance between the two lips/adges on the wheel hub. So if you hammer the right bearing outer race all the way home, the spacer will be pushing the inner race outwards and the bearing will go bad over time. Granted, when the axle and nut push on the inner races the wheel will probably spin OK, but the bearing will have lateral force on it.

I read the haynes manual too, but maybe they are wrong. When you think about it, Haynes take the bike apart and photograph it and put it back together, and if it runs, it's OK. But this problem only shows up after 10,000 miles. I think I'll have to go with the Suzuki method, cause the socket 'n hammer method has cost me about 100 Euro so far. I think I'll write Haynes an email.

I just hope I get the spacer by Friday, my county (Cork) are playing in the All-Ireland Football final in Dublin on Sunday. And I got a ticket. I have to get Suzi fixed. I hate going in the car, too much traffic. Before you ask, it's Gaelic football, played with a round ball (not an egg ).

Thanks for the help. All the best.
Tony

 

[mike1180]

Thanks Tony

I found the OEM bearings that I had to remove, were the same as yours.
I ended up wrecking the spacer to get them out.
I couldn't get a blind bearing puller in there to get them out either.
In the new bearings I have installed, the spacer moves a little side to side if I press on it.
I assume it will also tighten up when the axle is installed.

I would like to hear Bogus wade in again.

Good luck!