Americans Arrested While Taking Children From Haiti
- Thread starter NIGHTFLIGHT
- Start date
NIGHTFLIGHT
Banned
I know if i was traveling there would want a weapon.Theres gangs roaming the streets.
They will rob you+take your car.
They will rob you+take your car.
J'Man
Registered
Good intentions, but very poorly executed.
On a side note, I guess it's pretty easy for us to cast stones at them from the comfort of our air conditioned homes with plenty of food. It takes alot to go to another country and try to help. At least they were trying, even if it was totally bungled up.
On a side note, I guess it's pretty easy for us to cast stones at them from the comfort of our air conditioned homes with plenty of food. It takes alot to go to another country and try to help. At least they were trying, even if it was totally bungled up.
Not very smart. Damaging the US effort down there. One more reason to hate Americans.
Doesn't seem like any of them even had much travel experience to begin with .
I travel with my wife and kids often .
My son is only one who has passport with same last name.
Wifes shows her maiden name and my daughter who is actually my stepdaughter has even another name on her passport.
We are asked regularly who she is and we always carry notarized signed papers saying who she is and that she has permission to travel from her real father .
Now let me tell you a piece of paper drawn , signed and notarized in USA don't mean doodly squat in the third world but it helps tremendously to make you look prepared .
We have even had agents in Germany question her behind glass in Frankfurt as to who she was and who I was . I believe they went the extra step because of my name mostly but I hold no grudge as it is today we live in and I did not want to become a perm res of Germany .
I travel with my wife and kids often .
My son is only one who has passport with same last name.
Wifes shows her maiden name and my daughter who is actually my stepdaughter has even another name on her passport.
We are asked regularly who she is and we always carry notarized signed papers saying who she is and that she has permission to travel from her real father .
Now let me tell you a piece of paper drawn , signed and notarized in USA don't mean doodly squat in the third world but it helps tremendously to make you look prepared .
We have even had agents in Germany question her behind glass in Frankfurt as to who she was and who I was . I believe they went the extra step because of my name mostly but I hold no grudge as it is today we live in and I did not want to become a perm res of Germany .
NIGHTFLIGHT
Banned
New reports in dont look good.
Ten U.S. Baptists detained trying to take 33 children out of earthquake-shattered Haiti without government permission say they were just trying to do the right thing, applying Christian principles to save Haitian children.
But their "Orphan Rescue Mission" is striking nerves in a country that has long suffered from child trafficking and foreign interventions, and where much of the aid is delivered in ways that challenge Haiti's own rich religious traditions.
Prime Minister Max Bellerive on Sunday told The Associated Press that the group was arrested and is under judicial investigation "because it is illegal trafficking of children and we won't accept that."
The Americans are the first people to be arrested since the Jan 12 quake on such suspicions. No charges have been filed.
"From what I know until now, this is a kidnapping case," Bellerive told CNN. "Who is doing it -- I don't know. What are the real objectives or activities -- I don't know. But that is kidnapping and it is more serious because it's involving children," he said.
Without proper documents and concerted efforts to track down their parents, they could be forever separated from family members able and willing to care for them.
Social Affairs Minister Yves Cristallin told The Associated Press that the Americans were suspected of taking part in an illegal adoption scheme
The orphanage where the children were later taken said some of the kids have living parents, who were apparently told the children were going on a holiday from the post-quake misery.
The church group's own mission statement said it planned to spend only hours in the devastated capital, quickly identifying children without immediate families and busing them to a rented hotel in the Dominican Republic without bothering to get permission from the Haitian government.
Whatever their intentions, other child welfare organizations in Haiti said the plan was foolish at best.
"The instinct to swoop in and rescue children may be a natural impulse but it cannot be the solution for the tens of thousands of children left vulnerable by the Haiti earthquake," said Deb Barry, a protection expert at Save the Children, which wants a moratorium on new adoptions. "The possibility of a child being scooped up and mistakenly labeled an orphan in the chaotic aftermath of the disaster is incredibly high."
The church members, most from Idaho, said they were only trying to rescue abandoned and traumatized children.
"In this chaos the government is in right now, we were just trying to do the right thing," the group's spokeswoman, Laura Silsby, told the AP from inside Haiti's judicial police headquarters, where she and others were being held until a Monday hearing.
In Idaho, the Rev. Clint Henry denied that his Central Valley Baptist Church had anything to do with child trafficking.
He urged his tearful congregation to pray to God to "help them as they seek to resist the accusations of Satan and the lies that he would want them to believe and the fears that he would want to plant into their heart."
As the poorest country in the western hemisphere, Haiti is in a difficult spot - it needs aid, but deeply resents foreign meddling. Many have an uneasy relationship with American evangelical Christian groups that funnel hundreds of millions of dollars into their missions in Haiti.
Since Haiti became the world's first black republic in 1804, its people have seen several U.S. military occupations, was wrongly blamed for the spread of AIDS and has been vilified for the Voodoo traditions brought from West Africa. Voodoo is one of Haiti's two constitutionally recognized religions, along with Roman Catholicism, and two-thirds of Haiti's 9 million people are said to worship its spirits.
One Voodoo leader said the Idaho group's plan - to give each child "new life in Christ" while facilitating their adoptions by "loving Christian families" in the United States - is deeply offensive.
"There are many who come here with religious ideas that belong more in the time of the inquisition," said Max Beauvoir, head of Haiti's Voodoo Priest's Association, which represents thousands of priests and priestesses. "These types of people believe they need to save our souls and our bodies from ourselves. We need compassion, not proselytizing now, and we need aid - not just aid going to people of the Christian faith."
Many religious groups run legitimate adoption agencies and orphanages in Haiti. Some of the children in them aren't actually orphans, but have been left by relatives who can't afford their care.
At the same time, bogus adoption agencies also prey on families in Haiti, offering children to rich Haitians and foreigners in return for processing fees reaching $10,000, according to the intergovernmental International Organization for Migration.
Restoring families inside Haiti is a goal of leading aid agencies and the Haitian government. Bellerive's personal authorization is now required for the departure of any child.
Silsby told the AP that she hadn't been following news reports while in Haiti, and didn't think she needed Haitian permission to take them out of the country. She said they only had the best of intentions and paid no money for the children, who she said were brought to a Haitian pastor by their distant relatives.
Child trafficking "is exactly what we are trying to combat," Silsby said.
The 10 detained Americans include members of the Central Valley Baptist Church in Meridian, Idaho, and the East Side Baptist Church in Twin Falls, Idaho. They are part of the Southern Baptist Convention, which is America's largest Protestant denomination and has extensive humanitarian programs worldwide.
It is becoming more common for individual Southern Baptist congregations to run their own mission programs, ranging from sending doctors overseas for short-term trips to undertaking evangelism work.
The Idaho churches had elaborate plans before the earthquake to "provide a loving Christian homelike environment" for up to 200 Haitian and Dominican boys and girls in the Magante beach resort, complete with a school and chapel as well as villas and a seaside cafe catering to adoptive U.S. parents.
"One of the reasons that our church wanted to help is because we believe that Christ has asked us to take the gospel of Jesus Christ to the whole world, and that includes children," Henry, the senior pastor, said.
HMM SOME THE AMERICANGS BEING HELD LOOK LIKE KIDS THEMSELFS
Ten U.S. Baptists detained trying to take 33 children out of earthquake-shattered Haiti without government permission say they were just trying to do the right thing, applying Christian principles to save Haitian children.
But their "Orphan Rescue Mission" is striking nerves in a country that has long suffered from child trafficking and foreign interventions, and where much of the aid is delivered in ways that challenge Haiti's own rich religious traditions.
Prime Minister Max Bellerive on Sunday told The Associated Press that the group was arrested and is under judicial investigation "because it is illegal trafficking of children and we won't accept that."
The Americans are the first people to be arrested since the Jan 12 quake on such suspicions. No charges have been filed.
"From what I know until now, this is a kidnapping case," Bellerive told CNN. "Who is doing it -- I don't know. What are the real objectives or activities -- I don't know. But that is kidnapping and it is more serious because it's involving children," he said.
Without proper documents and concerted efforts to track down their parents, they could be forever separated from family members able and willing to care for them.
Social Affairs Minister Yves Cristallin told The Associated Press that the Americans were suspected of taking part in an illegal adoption scheme
The orphanage where the children were later taken said some of the kids have living parents, who were apparently told the children were going on a holiday from the post-quake misery.
The church group's own mission statement said it planned to spend only hours in the devastated capital, quickly identifying children without immediate families and busing them to a rented hotel in the Dominican Republic without bothering to get permission from the Haitian government.
Whatever their intentions, other child welfare organizations in Haiti said the plan was foolish at best.
"The instinct to swoop in and rescue children may be a natural impulse but it cannot be the solution for the tens of thousands of children left vulnerable by the Haiti earthquake," said Deb Barry, a protection expert at Save the Children, which wants a moratorium on new adoptions. "The possibility of a child being scooped up and mistakenly labeled an orphan in the chaotic aftermath of the disaster is incredibly high."
The church members, most from Idaho, said they were only trying to rescue abandoned and traumatized children.
"In this chaos the government is in right now, we were just trying to do the right thing," the group's spokeswoman, Laura Silsby, told the AP from inside Haiti's judicial police headquarters, where she and others were being held until a Monday hearing.
In Idaho, the Rev. Clint Henry denied that his Central Valley Baptist Church had anything to do with child trafficking.
He urged his tearful congregation to pray to God to "help them as they seek to resist the accusations of Satan and the lies that he would want them to believe and the fears that he would want to plant into their heart."
As the poorest country in the western hemisphere, Haiti is in a difficult spot - it needs aid, but deeply resents foreign meddling. Many have an uneasy relationship with American evangelical Christian groups that funnel hundreds of millions of dollars into their missions in Haiti.
Since Haiti became the world's first black republic in 1804, its people have seen several U.S. military occupations, was wrongly blamed for the spread of AIDS and has been vilified for the Voodoo traditions brought from West Africa. Voodoo is one of Haiti's two constitutionally recognized religions, along with Roman Catholicism, and two-thirds of Haiti's 9 million people are said to worship its spirits.
One Voodoo leader said the Idaho group's plan - to give each child "new life in Christ" while facilitating their adoptions by "loving Christian families" in the United States - is deeply offensive.
"There are many who come here with religious ideas that belong more in the time of the inquisition," said Max Beauvoir, head of Haiti's Voodoo Priest's Association, which represents thousands of priests and priestesses. "These types of people believe they need to save our souls and our bodies from ourselves. We need compassion, not proselytizing now, and we need aid - not just aid going to people of the Christian faith."
Many religious groups run legitimate adoption agencies and orphanages in Haiti. Some of the children in them aren't actually orphans, but have been left by relatives who can't afford their care.
At the same time, bogus adoption agencies also prey on families in Haiti, offering children to rich Haitians and foreigners in return for processing fees reaching $10,000, according to the intergovernmental International Organization for Migration.
Restoring families inside Haiti is a goal of leading aid agencies and the Haitian government. Bellerive's personal authorization is now required for the departure of any child.
Silsby told the AP that she hadn't been following news reports while in Haiti, and didn't think she needed Haitian permission to take them out of the country. She said they only had the best of intentions and paid no money for the children, who she said were brought to a Haitian pastor by their distant relatives.
Child trafficking "is exactly what we are trying to combat," Silsby said.
The 10 detained Americans include members of the Central Valley Baptist Church in Meridian, Idaho, and the East Side Baptist Church in Twin Falls, Idaho. They are part of the Southern Baptist Convention, which is America's largest Protestant denomination and has extensive humanitarian programs worldwide.
It is becoming more common for individual Southern Baptist congregations to run their own mission programs, ranging from sending doctors overseas for short-term trips to undertaking evangelism work.
The Idaho churches had elaborate plans before the earthquake to "provide a loving Christian homelike environment" for up to 200 Haitian and Dominican boys and girls in the Magante beach resort, complete with a school and chapel as well as villas and a seaside cafe catering to adoptive U.S. parents.
"One of the reasons that our church wanted to help is because we believe that Christ has asked us to take the gospel of Jesus Christ to the whole world, and that includes children," Henry, the senior pastor, said.
HMM SOME THE AMERICANGS BEING HELD LOOK LIKE KIDS THEMSELFS
Seems like simple kidnapping to me the way it was performed .
How much of an effort did they make to make sure no other family members were living and could care for them ?
Or were they just so high on their religion that they convinced themselves living in Haiti was terrible and it was best that we save them from their own culture !
Do that in any other country and it is obvious . Just because it is post disaster does not justify it.
They were dumbed and blinded by their faith and intentions.
Believing your religion and God will make sure all goes well has caused millions to go wrong .
How much of an effort did they make to make sure no other family members were living and could care for them ?
Or were they just so high on their religion that they convinced themselves living in Haiti was terrible and it was best that we save them from their own culture !
Do that in any other country and it is obvious . Just because it is post disaster does not justify it.
They were dumbed and blinded by their faith and intentions.
Believing your religion and God will make sure all goes well has caused millions to go wrong .
SANDFLEA85
Registered
they didnt release everyone from jail,they escaped,make no mistake about that
SANDFLEA85
Registered
New reports in dont look good.
Ten U.S. Baptists detained trying to take 33 children out of earthquake-shattered Haiti without government permission say they were just trying to do the right thing, applying Christian principles to save Haitian children.
But their "Orphan Rescue Mission" is striking nerves in a country that has long suffered from child trafficking and foreign interventions, and where much of the aid is delivered in ways that challenge Haiti's own rich religious traditions.
Prime Minister Max Bellerive on Sunday told The Associated Press that the group was arrested and is under judicial investigation "because it is illegal trafficking of children and we won't accept that."
The Americans are the first people to be arrested since the Jan 12 quake on such suspicions. No charges have been filed.
"From what I know until now, this is a kidnapping case," Bellerive told CNN. "Who is doing it -- I don't know. What are the real objectives or activities -- I don't know. But that is kidnapping and it is more serious because it's involving children," he said.
Without proper documents and concerted efforts to track down their parents, they could be forever separated from family members able and willing to care for them.
Social Affairs Minister Yves Cristallin told The Associated Press that the Americans were suspected of taking part in an illegal adoption scheme
The orphanage where the children were later taken said some of the kids have living parents, who were apparently told the children were going on a holiday from the post-quake misery.
The church group's own mission statement said it planned to spend only hours in the devastated capital, quickly identifying children without immediate families and busing them to a rented hotel in the Dominican Republic without bothering to get permission from the Haitian government.
Whatever their intentions, other child welfare organizations in Haiti said the plan was foolish at best.
"The instinct to swoop in and rescue children may be a natural impulse but it cannot be the solution for the tens of thousands of children left vulnerable by the Haiti earthquake," said Deb Barry, a protection expert at Save the Children, which wants a moratorium on new adoptions. "The possibility of a child being scooped up and mistakenly labeled an orphan in the chaotic aftermath of the disaster is incredibly high."
The church members, most from Idaho, said they were only trying to rescue abandoned and traumatized children.
"In this chaos the government is in right now, we were just trying to do the right thing," the group's spokeswoman, Laura Silsby, told the AP from inside Haiti's judicial police headquarters, where she and others were being held until a Monday hearing.
In Idaho, the Rev. Clint Henry denied that his Central Valley Baptist Church had anything to do with child trafficking.
He urged his tearful congregation to pray to God to "help them as they seek to resist the accusations of Satan and the lies that he would want them to believe and the fears that he would want to plant into their heart."
As the poorest country in the western hemisphere, Haiti is in a difficult spot - it needs aid, but deeply resents foreign meddling. Many have an uneasy relationship with American evangelical Christian groups that funnel hundreds of millions of dollars into their missions in Haiti.
Since Haiti became the world's first black republic in 1804, its people have seen several U.S. military occupations, was wrongly blamed for the spread of AIDS and has been vilified for the Voodoo traditions brought from West Africa. Voodoo is one of Haiti's two constitutionally recognized religions, along with Roman Catholicism, and two-thirds of Haiti's 9 million people are said to worship its spirits.
One Voodoo leader said the Idaho group's plan - to give each child "new life in Christ" while facilitating their adoptions by "loving Christian families" in the United States - is deeply offensive.
"There are many who come here with religious ideas that belong more in the time of the inquisition," said Max Beauvoir, head of Haiti's Voodoo Priest's Association, which represents thousands of priests and priestesses. "These types of people believe they need to save our souls and our bodies from ourselves. We need compassion, not proselytizing now, and we need aid - not just aid going to people of the Christian faith."
Many religious groups run legitimate adoption agencies and orphanages in Haiti. Some of the children in them aren't actually orphans, but have been left by relatives who can't afford their care.
At the same time, bogus adoption agencies also prey on families in Haiti, offering children to rich Haitians and foreigners in return for processing fees reaching $10,000, according to the intergovernmental International Organization for Migration.
Restoring families inside Haiti is a goal of leading aid agencies and the Haitian government. Bellerive's personal authorization is now required for the departure of any child.
Silsby told the AP that she hadn't been following news reports while in Haiti, and didn't think she needed Haitian permission to take them out of the country. She said they only had the best of intentions and paid no money for the children, who she said were brought to a Haitian pastor by their distant relatives.
Child trafficking "is exactly what we are trying to combat," Silsby said.
The 10 detained Americans include members of the Central Valley Baptist Church in Meridian, Idaho, and the East Side Baptist Church in Twin Falls, Idaho. They are part of the Southern Baptist Convention, which is America's largest Protestant denomination and has extensive humanitarian programs worldwide.
It is becoming more common for individual Southern Baptist congregations to run their own mission programs, ranging from sending doctors overseas for short-term trips to undertaking evangelism work.
The Idaho churches had elaborate plans before the earthquake to "provide a loving Christian homelike environment" for up to 200 Haitian and Dominican boys and girls in the Magante beach resort, complete with a school and chapel as well as villas and a seaside cafe catering to adoptive U.S. parents.
"One of the reasons that our church wanted to help is because we believe that Christ has asked us to take the gospel of Jesus Christ to the whole world, and that includes children," Henry, the senior pastor, said.
HMM SOME THE AMERICANGS BEING HELD LOOK LIKE KIDS THEMSELFS
these quotes should be a lesson to every religion phanatic out there that just because you believe something,it doesnt mean everyone else does or wants to. even in a time of needing help, the haitians found it "deeply offensive" that these people would try to take their children, esp since some of their parents are still alive. good intensions or bad, they acted with extreme ignorance and lack of respect for these families. they deserve everything they get and I hope they go after the minister (who doesnt sound like he was part of the group) for organizing the whole thing...total disgrace!! another black eye for america
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afterhours
Registered
so what is the difference:
1. a man/ group of men abduct children and sell them.
2. church group abducts children and "adopts" them in private transactions
the truth is, although we want to think these people had good intention.....none of us know them, none of us know what thier intentions were.
the only thing that is not in dispute is that they loaded 33 children and tried to take them into another country....without documentation.
they should be in jail and there should be an investigation.....period.
think about it.....a bus with 33 kids shows up at the US/Mexico border without the proper paperwork....don't you want someone to ask some questions and look into it.
1. a man/ group of men abduct children and sell them.
2. church group abducts children and "adopts" them in private transactions
the truth is, although we want to think these people had good intention.....none of us know them, none of us know what thier intentions were.
the only thing that is not in dispute is that they loaded 33 children and tried to take them into another country....without documentation.
they should be in jail and there should be an investigation.....period.
think about it.....a bus with 33 kids shows up at the US/Mexico border without the proper paperwork....don't you want someone to ask some questions and look into it.
CNN is now saying some of the kids actually still have parents.
No papers trying to smuggle kids out of a country ?
I would like to know the backround on these people arrested.
As I do not know them I pass no judgement but only ponder if any have previous convictions for sex offenses toward children or any other crimes.
To have not done the right thing from get go is now seeming very suspicious.
How are we to know for sure good intent was what was in store for those kids ?
Smuggle them out never to be seen again. Had they gotten away with them they
could have gone to highest bidder and you and I would never be the wiser ...
Could have poss just saved the lives of 33 kids who would have been chained up in some guys closet....?
???
No papers trying to smuggle kids out of a country ?
I would like to know the backround on these people arrested.
As I do not know them I pass no judgement but only ponder if any have previous convictions for sex offenses toward children or any other crimes.
To have not done the right thing from get go is now seeming very suspicious.
How are we to know for sure good intent was what was in store for those kids ?
Smuggle them out never to be seen again. Had they gotten away with them they
could have gone to highest bidder and you and I would never be the wiser ...
Could have poss just saved the lives of 33 kids who would have been chained up in some guys closet....?
???
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Don't forget certain Baptist sects like those in Westboro. Use chaos to add young impressionable minds to the "flock" while expanding to other countries? ???
I have a friend who I've worked with for nearly 20 years and he's probably the most intelligent person I know. One day he opened the door to a lady who was witnessing...he ended up getting married to her and turned into a real life Ned Flanders. I've spent nearly 2 decades listening to how I'm headed for fire and brimstone if I don't join them. Few years ago we really had a blow out and he's sorta quit nagging me. It's mind boggling how they can tear apart other religions.
If you're not part of their church, you're gonna burn in hell. His wife gets a job and when her coworkers won't join her at church she quits. I know she hates me with a passion and he's not supposed to associate with me 'cause I'm a bad influence!
He traveled to a 3rd world country to help build a church for kids which apparently wasn't wanted because the people burned it down a week after he left. Travel expenses and a month off work cost him thousands.
They brought in foster kids and when they didn't turn into good little Baptists they got rid of them. Then they brought in a foreign exchange student who barely knew a word of english and when he didn't conform to their ideals he went through months of living hell. I really felt bad for that kid.
He's always made an incredible amount of money yet at 50+ years old they're in bankruptcy and currently in total financial ruin because of a drop in work hours. Instead of saving money they've been giving it all to the church. Not just 10% but 10% + donation. It'll come back 10 fold or something like that.
J'Man
Registered
Don't forget certain Baptist sects like those in Westboro. Use chaos to add young impressionable minds to the "flock" while expanding to other countries? ???
I have a friend who I've worked with for nearly 20 years and he's probably the most intelligent person I know. One day he opened the door to a lady who was witnessing...he ended up getting married to her and turned into a real life Ned Flanders. I've spent nearly 2 decades listening to how I'm headed for fire and brimstone if I don't join them. Few years ago we really had a blow out and he's sorta quit nagging me. It's mind boggling how they can tear apart other religions.
If you're not part of their church, you're gonna burn in hell. His wife gets a job and when her coworkers won't join her at church she quits. I know she hates me with a passion and he's not supposed to associate with me 'cause I'm a bad influence!
He traveled to a 3rd world country to help build a church for kids which apparently wasn't wanted because the people burned it down a week after he left. Travel expenses and a month off work cost him thousands.
They brought in foster kids and when they didn't turn into good little Baptists they got rid of them. Then they brought in a foreign exchange student who barely knew a word of english and when he didn't conform to their ideals he went through months of living hell. I really felt bad for that kid.
He's always made an incredible amount of money yet at 50+ years old they're in bankruptcy and currently in total financial ruin because of a drop in work hours. Instead of saving money they've been giving it all to the church. Not just 10% but 10% + donation. It'll come back 10 fold or something like that.
Not all baptists, umm let me correct that, no other baptists are nuts like those in Westboro. They are pretty much in a class by themselves.
You start out your post by saying this friend is the most intelligent person you know then pretty much discredit what he believes. Your friend obviously cared enough about you to share the gospel with you. You may find one day he was one of the most important people put in your life.
What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. James 4:14 NIV
Did I say not all baptists are like those nuts in Westboro....
Not all baptists, umm let me correct that, no other baptists are nuts like those in Westboro. They are pretty much in a class by themselves.
You start out your post by saying this friend is the most intelligent person you know then pretty much discredit what he believes. Your friend obviously cared enough about you to share the gospel with you. You may find one day he was one of the most important people put in your life.
What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. James 4:14 NIV
Did I say not all baptists are like those nuts in Westboro....
I'll discredit anyone who insists on shoving their beliefs on me even after they are told to stop...multiple times.
I'll discredit those who take a holier than thou attitude by claiming all other religions are wrong and they'll burn in hell.
And maybe I'm wrong here and I just haven't noticed it, but I'd like to see other Baptist churches go up against Westboro during one of their insane pickets.
So many religions, they can't all be right, but they could all be wrong.
Hush up now ken! That's banning talk at the .Org.
cheers
ken
J'Man
Registered
Sorry it sounds like you had a bad experience. I'm sure your friend had good intentions, but didn't realize just like others (sometimes myself included) that you can't push it on anyone. On a side note many people, including Christians, go up against Westboro. They are completely nuts.
Anyway, have a good night.
NIGHTFLIGHT
Banned
Im going have back out my own thread.
I just thought it was a interesting story
I dont do or debate religion+politics on line.
I just thought it was a interesting story
I dont do or debate religion+politics on line.
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