AHH!! Starter or clutch FRAGGED OUT!!

[Hellfire666]

That´s the plan yes, i spent almost a year to get rid of the kickbacks that occurred due to slow cranking, as i replaced the starterclutch all dissappeared, slow cranking and kickbacks so i guess i had a poor connection somewhere on the starter also. Winter, beer, cleaning connections, sounds like a good winter to me

 

[IG.]

Great attitude! I just realized you are from Sweden. How about putting spikes on the tires and going riding on a frozen lake? I've seen some guys in Northern countries do that. I certainly would. Just don't accidentally ride over someone's foot, LOL.

 

[Hellfire666]

Great attitude! I just realized you are from Sweden. How about putting spikes on the tires and going riding on a frozen lake? I've seen some guys in Northern countries do that. I certainly would. Just don't accidentally ride over someone's foot, LOL.

I actually had ONE in the rear tire last week but it wasn´t enough so i got the hole plugged
Yeah i remember that from bike magazines a few years ago, i guess it would be a bit hard to park it in the garage at night? :Oo:

 

[IG.]

Ha-ha, I know what you mean, LOL

 

[Hellfire666]

Now when the main problem for the moment is eliminated i can see how good the Shorai 14ah battery really is, sometimes it feels like it´s starting right when it starts spinning.

I guess this will do?

http://www.crcind.com/wwwcrc/tds/TCA3%20HDVASELINE.PDF

Or maybe not? ???

https://www1.elfa.se/data1/wwwroot/assets/datasheets/HD_VASELINE_eng_MSDS.pdf

 

[Hellfire666]

Went to the local car electrician to buy some grease today, i told him the battery went as low as to 6.7 volts when it stopped and reset the clock the other day. He said no way a real battery would do that from a bad connection, try with a new battery!

Are the shorai's different from the standard battery in that sense? Lubed some connections a couple of hours ago and so far it's working again, if the battery is done shouldn't it act the same all the time?

Crazy ****.

 

[IG.]

Hold on a sec. Based on your electrician's repsonse, I think in your statement to the electician you confused two different things. He is right that bad connection would not drop the voltage to 6.7V during cranking. If anything, a poor connection introduces an additional resistance into an electrical circuit and therefore would reduce a load on the battery during cranking, and as a result the voltage drop may be less severe.

Stick with the facts, and be systematic. Fact: voltage drops significantly during cranking. There are a few possible reasons the battery voltage went that low during cranking.

1) your battery was not fully charged because...
...a) you didn't ride long enough so that the bike's charging system can replenish the battery's charge;
...b) you did ride long enough, but your charging system is not working right;
...c) you did attempt to charge the battery, but either did not finish or your charger is not working properly;

2) your battery is defective and is unable to provide enough current during cranking.

3) you have a defective starter which draws too much current which can be caused by...
...a) purely electrical issue in the starter motor windings, for example a partial short between some windings;
...b) a mechanical issue preventing the starter from turning, thus effectively reducing the resistance of the circuit and as a result drawing more current.

So you see, just replacing the battery would accomplish nothing if the problem is caused by any other item above.

In your investigation, you need a positive confirmation for every item you are investigating.

I'd start with the battery. How old is it? If less than a couple of years, it's probably good. If more than five years, it's probably not so good. Fully charge it (let me know how do you know it's fully charged), and try again. Observe the voltage drop, and how the bike cranks. Let us know the results. If you have a friend whose bike starts with no issues, ask him/her to stop by, and jumpstart your bike using their battery while disconnecting your battery from the bike. Do it a few times and alternate: once with your battery, once with the friend's battery, once with your battery, once with the friend's battery, etc. Look for a consistent conclusion - does your friend's battery consistently make a difference?


Regarding the aerosol vaseline, I would prefer a squeesable tube - it's easier to put it where you need it. Not familiar with the spray, but as long as it's designed for this puprose, it will do the job.

 

[Hellfire666]

I'm reading and absorbing everything, i'm following a youtube clip from a guy with the same issues. In his case he replaced the sprag bearings in the starterclutch and startergear and the problem disappeared, might also be the startergear locking up, i'm trying to remember if i got the bearing with the starterclutch. Won't hurt to replace them anyway, the bike IS getting older.

Anyway, i'm gonna go for the connectors all over the bike, got the grease in a tube, it should be done anyway and i'll continue tomorrow with the rest of them. I'll try with another battery but i've been running with a new standard battery, aLiFePo monster battery cca370, this shorai and nothing has helped.

Tomorrow i'm gonna start with the +/-connectors on the starter and everything i find under the fairings. It's fitted with bixenon lights and i think they react pretty weird when i turn them on, sometimes switching highbeam on, with ignition on, engine off, i have to switch 3 times before it comes on, low beam(?) flickers when i hit highbeam, not familiar with xenon at all but it feels a bit strange.

When everything i'd do anyway is done it'll be pretty cold here and i can start the serious troubleshooting if the problem isn't solved and i have most of it in this thread :-)

I'm at work atm, using the phone to read longer replies trying to remember everything when replying back is a pain in the ***

 

[IG.]

Now that you mentioned your aftermarket headlights, keep in mind that they may create a serious drain on the battery - and at the worst time - when you crank the bike and the charging system is not ON yet. Since the following experiment is easy to do, it's worth checking the following: disconnect your headlight, and see if the bike starts with no problem.

On the side note, I installed a headlight switch on the left upper panel above the fuse box - years ago, and never start the bike with the headlights ON.

Another point on your headlights. The symptoms you are describing with flickering doesn't seem to have anything to do with the technology the light bulbs represent. I would strongly suspect poor electrical connections, and even exposed wiring somewhere. However, if the headlights are controlled by a devoted aftermarket module, then there is a good chance this module is failing internally while your bike's wiring is NOT a problem.

 

[Hellfire666]

I never start with the lights on, i ALWAYS switch them off before stopping the engine even, got tvat disease when i had the kickback problem, but if smth is faulty in the x setup who knows? Forgot to bring the multimeter to work to check the voltage but it's always the same after a drive or the morning after, always 13.25 or higher after awhile.

The problem with that test is that it can start properly for a whole day, week or month even, the best thing to do might be to take it of altogether.

 

[IG.]

It looks like your battery is good. That's very similar to the voltage I observe on mine.

Now, can you tell me what voltage you observe on the battery after turning the key to ON, but don't try to start the bike and keep the headlight OFF? I would expect 12.0-12.5V range. Noticeably lower than 12.0 would indicate a serious load on the battery (i.e. something is drawing excessive current).

I am a bit confused. So, you are saying that most of the time the bike starts fine, but rarely and randomly it would exhibit your problem, correct? Then going back to the previous question - what voltage did you observe during cranking - both when it starts normally and when it exhibits the problem?

 

[Hellfire666]

I just got home after a 13km ride home from work, parked, out with the tools ignition off, 13.74 volts, ignition on everything else off, 13.42 volts, the alarm actually went off last night, still it started this morning at 5c (41f), a bit slow but no problems.

After an hours rest 13.38 volts. After activating the alarm 13.34 volts.

After an hour with the alarm on 13.31 volts.
I'll check the voltagedrop after a night on the alarm but it seems unlikely that it'll drop too low.

Before it started this time i had 3 to 4 slow cranks with stops out of 10, after replacing the starterclutch 3 slightly slow cranks in 2 months.

After the temp dropped below 10c (50f ?) i got more and more of it and before tearing the tailfairing off the other day the last 3 attempts resulted in 3 stops resetting the clock, it's always starting every time.

When cranking normally it went under 11-12 and after a few attempts just above 10. Slow cranking got under 9 and the last one i checked 6.77. I can get a crank with a stop, clockreset and start in one attempt., shut it off- on right away and get a normal crank seconds later

 

[IG.]

So, it seems the battery is fine, but gets drained by multiple starting attempts, right? Can you explain what does it mean " the crank with a stop"?

By any chance, you didn't have any motor work done which would increase compression ratio, did you?

 

[Hellfire666]

So, it seems the battery is fine, but gets drained by multiple starting attempts, right? Can you explain what does it mean " the crank with a stop"?

By any chance, you didn't have any motor work done which would increase compression ratio, did you?

That means it turns 2 or 3 revs, stops turning totally for a second (in that moment the clock resets and meters turns as when you turn the ignition on) then starts turning and starts up. It has reset the clock at least once when driving also but that was last year, hasn't happened this year.

Nope, yoshi, kn filter, pc3, xenon, smart tre and alarm/immobilizer is everything.

 

[Hellfire666]

Last year i had a switchable tre, didn't make any difference if it was on or or off, took it off anyway but the problem didn't go away, put the smart tre in a couple of months ago.

 

[Hellfire666]

The alarm obviously takes some power but that has to be normal? It's not running on air.

I just went out to check the battery, 13.24 volts. I also discovered that when i have the ignition on only and turn first lowbeam on ok, highbeam on and the ballast is making a highpitched noise that tones down and when it's done the fuelpump starts off again like when you switch the ignition on, highbeam flickering when engine's not running also.

 

[IG.]

The alarm is of no concern. It takes a few mA. When you start the bike, both Hi/Lo lights are OFF. So, they are not drawing extra power from the battery. Your ballast initially draws a pretty significant current (I'd guess, around 15A or more) which I would be suspicious about, but only as a separate problem, independant from your main issue. I would investigate online whether this is normal. I know I have two horns on the bike - my stock horn and an aftermarket air horn both at the same time. If I honk with the bike ON, but engine OFF, same things happens: the fuel pump primes again because the voltage drop 'confuses' the ECU which powers the fuel pump as if you just turned the key to ON. I would guess your high beam light is flickering because the battery alone doesn't provide high enough voltage, and suspect that when the engine starts the flickering goes away.

Could you confirm the following: when you ride, do you have low beam ON only? What is the voltage on the battery when the bike idles with no lights, with low beam is ON, and with both lights are ON? Would it be possible for you to fully charge your battery and take it to a mechanic for a load test - this would take a few minutes and you will know for sure whether the battery is capable of providing high enough current (around 80-100 A) during cranking? I ask these questions to make a final conclusion that your battery and charging system are OK, and move on.

So, something prevents the starter from turning. Do you hear any strange sounds? Can you correlate the problem to bike being hot or cold?

Another crazy thought. When was the last time you checked your valve clearance? If the clearance is severely out of spec and usually it is on the tight side, this makes it more difficult for the air to escape from the combustion chamber, effectively increasing the compression ratio, thus making it harder for the engine to turn. Interestingly enough, I would speculate that the maximum pressure would be achieved after a few engine revolutions. At this point, the starter motor would have a really hard time turning the engine - which would cause a stop after a few cranks - consistent with your observation.

 

[SlimNickel]

I got my baby up and running now. After quite a few months of tinkering with starter after starter, I changed the whole system. Here's it in a nutshell. I went through about 4 starters. Again, I have a 2000. I upgraded the starter clutch and idler gear from an '07, case from an '06. When I changed everything out, I was still having starting problems. From a hot battery, the bike would start after a few revolutions, but it had a really weird sound. After shutting down and starting a couple of times, the battery would be so weak that it wouldn't do anything. If I jumped from my car, it would fire, but then after a few shots of that, no go. So during the next few months, I changed the relay switch, negative cable and installed a brand new stator. Still no good. I finally got frustrated and sent it my mechanic. Within an hour of him picking up my bike, he had it fixed. Apparently when I put the starting system back to gather, I installed the wave washer and flat washer on the idler gear just like it came off the originally setup. That wasnt right. Having those washers on there actually created friction which was not allowing the starter to turn evrything, because there was no room in the case for the gears to move. I went to the shop, and my mech handed me the two washers, pushed the start button, and in two turns it fired right up. I haven't had any problems with it since. I guess I was my own shade-tree mechanic I have HID' s, so I just make sure to turn the lights off before I start it just to avoid any other problems. For nothing else, my electrics are up and up.