A flag, a war and a support

[L4G4RT0]

Hello guys,

I just want to communicate that I trully dislike the flag saying "Hayabusa.org supporting our troops and their mission". Thought this was a site for everyone, and that anyone entering this web space would feel comfortable and say "there's no place like home"... Well, after this animated gif was put on the entrance of hayabusa.org, I felt "home" no more... I have to agree that taking Saddam's power over Iraq was a good thing, but I also have to agree that Bush has lied to the world and has lied to US people. I am almost a neutral person in this kind of conflicts, because I have to agree with United States self defense, but I have to disagree with the economical advantages that you guys take of that "self defense"... You don't have to reconstruct Iraq. They are a nation several thousand years older than yours! They can rebuild their country, you can let'em chose how to do it, you can let'em chose their own destiny... It was hard to say that Americans were wrong in attacking Iraq, but it's hard to say that they are being fair now that the war's over... But of course, the millions of dollars spent in war have to be paid by the conflict losers... and if possible with interests.

Now, really i am not anti-american, and please I want you to UNDERSTAND this! If it was my country doing the same, i would have the same position... and i believe that, if we had the same power and the same threats that US have, we would do exactly the same, but this is my 2 cents about the "supporting" banner, with which i disagree, although i have to understand the position "our people is there, and even if i disagree with this war, well we have to support them anyway! it's blood of our blood!"

hope that you all could get my message very clear

 

[captain]

Bye Bye, try the Iraqi site devoted the Hayabusa. Oh wait there isn't one.... Well this sounds like a perfect opportunity for you to start a Portugal Hayabusa portal devoted to your bike. I have absolutely no room for this BS, some things are non negotiable this banner is one of em. If you got your feelings hurt too bad. If it makes you feel uneasy beacuse you think OUR president is a liar, I hear the hayabusa.de website is up Hope you know how to speak German. You might want to find the French version too. Oh and if its war rant you want try the website for Tim Robbins or Susan Sarandon. I have stated many times before anyone is welcome here but if you feel uncomfortable go somewehere else. The flag stays and there is no exceptions.

Doug King
Owner Hayabusa.org
aka Captain

 

[Revlis]

I can understand your POV; it’s one that many of our supposed Alias hold. A couple thoughts though, the truth of a thing is often a lot harder to find than it seems. We have a lot of folks in the US that support the war and Love President Bush, they believe that the president has American and world interests foremost in his mind. There are others that fully believe that this war against Iraq is some sort of money making scheme, or a power grab. The truth prolly lies somewhere in between.

For any European to decide that the US is doing the right thing they are going to have to realize that the reason the majority of European nations were against the war was Money, Germany, France, and others had massive contracts and debts being paid by Iraq, when the US went in those debts and contracts with a despot disappeared. So for you to come here and say the US is doing it all for money is a pretty twisted fantasy. No matter how twisted you think the United States is we do not need to kill and die for money or power. If you have been paying attention the US has more than enough of both.

Your contention that Iraq can rebuild itself is laughable. I think you have been duped into believing this or you are completely naive. Maybe you haven't been paying attention but when the United States goes to war we tend to make a serious mess spending BILLIONS not Millions. To pull out of Iraq after completely eliminating the government, communications infrastructure, bridges, power plants, etc... would result in complete anarchy internally. It would result in tribal wars, mass starvation, and eventually given just a couple of months IRAN, Syria, or another Arab country would make a grab for power completely destabilizing the region resulting in even more suffering for the citizens of Iraq.

You state that your problem is with the American Flag banner on the board. WTF? Are you high??? This is an American Hosted Board and you are going to come here and bitch about a flag? I know that in many countries the flag of the Nation doesn't really mean a whole lot to its citizens or military. (I saw this first hand from the French and Germans in Saudi) But, in the United States the Flag is a personal and powerful symbol to its citizens. So, to come here and bitch and cry about the flag being on the board just makes no sense, Sorry you feel the way you do but to take issue with the Flag and Supporting our troops on this board is a dead end.

Do I back my President 100%? No, do I agree with all the decisions made by him? No, but to take issue with my flag gets you an invitation to walk.

 

[WWJD]

I'm glad this is a dictatorship and not a MINORITY RULE place. I respect your freedom of voicing opinion and you as a human completely. I DISPISE when one or two people end up changing something thousands of others agree with.
Heck I'd still come here if it flew a russian flag or whatever. The owner can do what he wants.

 

[paistes5]

I thought the flag said "supporting our troops". I don't remember anything about supporting Bush, money or anything else you mention. I believe the Cap is saying hey, we appreciate all the troops have done and hope they all come home safe, no matter the politics.

 

[L4G4RT0]

I was just expressing my point of view about supporting military actions, not about the american flag. No way I would want to disrespect the american flag and who understood that, got me wrong 'cause that was not what i meant. "You state that your problem is with the American Flag banner on the board. WTF? Are you high??? " - no, Revlis maybe i mispelled my sentence. The flag is ok, it's fair, it's MORE than fair!! Geez, it's an american site! My post was about the sentence and about the conflict... not more, not less.

When I said that your president lied to the world was because of the mass destruction weapons that he said, existed in Iraq. I can tell you that I believed him, but in the end where are those weapons?... can't I feel angry about that? if your troops find any mass destruction weapons, i will come back here and tell you that i apologise for this sentence. That's a promise.

I really hope your troops come home safely. Ah, by the way, if you remember (or noticed), there was an insignificant country in Europe which has shown their support to that conflict: Portugal.

In my country people like to talk and show their opinions, to debate and to discuss every matter. I can tell you that in here there are people for and against the conflict. I'm a moderated person about it, I agree with some part of it, and disagree with other, but hey, that's what a reasonable outsider would do: to question, to try to understand what's going on.

Captain, hope you understand me now and of course, if you decide that i'm not welcome you can always tell me to leave. There's no need to argue more or to have bad feelings about this.

Regards to all

 

[BusaFever]

Dude, Cap said EVERYONE is welcome. This includes you. There are folks in the US that feel "lied to" also. Thats fine. Cap is supporting our troops with his website. I think it's awesome.

You have the freedom of speech; you used it. You have the freedom of choice, you can exercise that and leave, OR choose to stay. I seriously doubt anyone thinks you are not welcome here. So keep on posting!

 

[L4G4RT0]

Thank you BusaFever...
But hey, maybe I didn't use the right words... I didn't meant to say that I wasn't comfortable in this site anymore. Hope you guys can live with different points of view. I think some people took it as personal, or took it like I was anti-american, and that it's absolutely wrong... If I didn't like americans, what would I be doing here? I would be in a french site (not a german 'cause i can't understand german)...

the good thing about being Portuguese is that usually we can understand english, french, spanish and a bit of italian. But hey, I chose THIS site because it's always been the best...

 

[captain]

Well I hate to get this one going but not only do I support our troops let me lay it on the line when I say that I support the President. They have proven that missles were found that were violation of UN treaty, there have been mass graves uncovered with thousands of men, women and children, and I have seen pictures of fully assembled fighters buried in the desert. Just last week they unearthed 36 mortars that had been buried for over 10 years. What in the world would make you think that our president lied to anyone? If you for a moment think that we have all of the intelligence that our military and president has then you are mistaken. I believe without any doubt that president Bush has the best interest of our country in mind. I have spoken to many soldiers that have come back from Iraq or that are still serving there now and they tell me the real story. You only see what the liberal media wants you to see. Everyone is welcome here just dont try and wipe your feet with my flag and don't disrespect the man that is leading our country to victory. You can have your own thoughts and ideas on these things just don't voice em here.

cap

 

[Revlis]

Well Look at it like this L4G4RT0. The company you work for probably supports certain political parties or points of view you dislike, you may have a manager or a team lead that has viewpoints you disagree with. Your country probably makes decisions you do not like, and I am sure that your President Jorge Sampaio does and says things you may not like.
Does this mean that you start looking for a new job, Country, or President? No, and do the words across the Bottom of the US Flag mean you have to quit coming around here just because you disagree with the words? No.
I think I understand what you were tryin to get at earlier. What your trying to say is that you are a member of Hayabusa.org, but you do not neccessarily agree with the sentiment written across the flag, so you feel a little put out. Kind of like when your employer or any organization your a part of makes statements or donations to a cause you do not support. But you have no problem with the American Flag itself. Sound about right?
If this is the case then I do apologize for jumping down your throat earlier. I would still recommend against taking the Captain to task on this, this board is wholey owned by him, and as such this forum is not truly "Free Press", so knowing that there are probably just some things best left unwritten.

Rev

 

[L4G4RT0]

Thank you once again for your understanding Rev. I live in a democracy, so I usually say what I think without using aggressive words and trying to be respectful when I express myself. Sometime words written aren't a mirror of our mind and sometimes it's easy for them to turn against them. Now I feel you really understood my words. As i told you before, I'm FOR and not AGAINST taking off the terrorists and the dictators, ok? No way i would respect people that kill innocent people... but I don't have to agree with EVERYTHING that's happening... By the way, I work in an American multinational.

Captain i will ask you now to delete this topic, since I think mostly it lead to a big misunderstanding and of course you are free to send me an email so we can talk in a friendly way about this or other topic. I don't want people here to have resentments about what I said ok?

Rgds,
L4G4RT0

 

[stkr00]

I really hope your troops come home safely. Ah, by the way, if you remember (or noticed), there was an insignificant country in Europe which has shown their support to that conflict: Portugal.

I must have missed where there were troops from Potugal risking their lives in their support of the regime change. Most of the support that came from countries NOT involved in the fighting, was to save face after France denounced support, and they saw the reactions it brought about.

You are entitled to your opinion, as am I, but I am usually carefull about where I voice that opinion, and try to be considerate of others' feelings. Captain and Revlis pretty much stated what I was thinking, so it did save me a lot of typing.

Thanks Captain and Revlis!

To sum up how some of us feel around here. I'll give you a hint at why we feel that way. We support our troops because they are doing a mission that, wheather we agree with it or not, is life threatening and many WILL NOT come home alive. A lot of us, at one point in our lives took an oath that goes something like this:

<span style='color:blue'>I, (MY NAME HERE, not yours!) ,do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. I swear (or affirm) that I am fully aware and fully understand the conditions under which I am enlisting.</span>

The people, men & women, performing the "mission" are following that oath. They may not ALL agree with the mission, but they will do it because of the above.

I, to this day, still hold true to that oath although I am not currently serving in the military.

<span style='color:blue'>To those of you who have served. It's like the country song says..."I would gladly stand up next to you, and defend her still today."</span>

<span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>Captain - KEEP THE FLAG</span></span>

 

[stkr00]

BTW...If you're going to have an opinion, then stick to it. Don't try to restate what you first said and back-peddle your way out of it.

That just shows that you aren't a person of conviction, and will bow to others when confronted.

Okay...NOW I'm done!

 

[captain]

The flag aint going anywhere!

 

[cache]

my daughter supports the busa and the flag...

she was really wearing this stuff!

 

[stkr00]

The flag aint going anywhere!

Thank You ! ! !

 

[thrasherfox]

L4G4RT0 - The cool thing about the United States.. You are free to express your opinions and views without having to worry about someone beating down yuor door and taking you and your family away....

While someone expressing their feelings that our flag offends them in anyway way really pisses me off. my anger is tempered by the fact that you and anyone has the right to express those feelings.

While it pisses me off, I respect it…. I served in the military to protect those rights.

L4G4RT0 - This web site is in the United States, we for the most part are an extremely forgiving country. Our people in general are kind and most of us will help others out, even others that we don’t like, if they need help bad enough….

I am sooooo pissed as I think about this… and actually starting to tear up a little.. We have troops over there dying on a fricken daily basis to help out another country.

I have friends over there that I know personally that I worry about daily, I have friends in Afghanistan and Bahrain also.

And what do we get? We have Iraqi's stoning our troops and other coalition troops because "their country is not back in order yet" The country has been getting screwed by its leader ship for decades, and people are getting upset because we have not been able to heal all the wounds in less than a year that took decades to create.

Saddam was a cruel person, all of Iraq's neighbors wanted him gone but did not have the balls to do it. We did what all of his neighbors and the majority of the Iraqi people wanted but either did not have the power to do, or did not have the balls to do or lacked both. What we did by going into Iraq needed to be done, and no one else was doing it. We had the resources and we had the balls so we did it.

Now that we have done it, we cannot just leave until we know there will not be a power vacuum and the wrong people take power when we leave.

If we were to leave now, Iraq would be in the same position it was before this all started, but someone maybe even worse that Saddam would gain power. We would be no better off and any troops that have lost their lives from any of the countries that are there helping would have lost their lives for nothing.

We cannot leave Iraq in an unstable position, it would not be fair to those whom have lost their lives AND it would not be fair to the surrounding countries

You think people are pissed now… what do you think would happen if we pulled all of our troops out and someone gained power that built a military that started crap with its neighbors over there? WE… The United States I assure you would get blamed for that..


While I DO support our president and I DO support our current administration. The flag states supporting our troops… The men and women that are over there doing what they are told to do, trusting in our leadership serving our country as they are told to do.

We have a job to complete over there…. Because we DID go into Iraq and remove the governing power, we have a world wide responsibility to ensure we do not pull out until Iraq is stable and the new stable government can defend itself from external AND internal attacks.

Don’t you dare come on to American soil and tell us NOT to support our troops.. that is OUR right to do so….

This web site is on American soil.. it is run by an American. And while we are all motorcycle riders and there are people from all over the world on this site. I would respectfully request that anyone reading this respect OUR right to support OUR troops as we seem fit to do.

 

[thrasherfox]

Hey Cache!! when is your daughter getting her OWN Busa?

My son asked me at what age can he get one... I looked him and said... "maybe when you are 25, I want you to start off with something a little smaller first" he is 11 right now.. lol he's my little buddy,, brings tears to my eyes

 

[L4G4RT0]

Guys, how many times do I have to repeat that the issue is not the american flag! We have american flags in here, you can see them in hotels, in books, in motorcycles, whateaver. That was not the point! I don't aprove war in general ways, and I don't agree with a sentence that Metallica wrote some years ago "to secure peace is to prepare for war".

NOW PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING ANY FURTHER COMMENTS:

If this was a site in my country I would say EXACTLY the same! I don't support war, or military missions. I have to understand your POV but you have to understand mine too. It's not USA, it's not Iraq, it's the conflict itself. I'm shocked everyday about american troops dying and Iraq civilians dying. Don't know what you think about these civilians, but I consider the chance that they are INNOCENT, as innocent are your soldiers there! They are following orders to restore democracy on a complicated area of the globe, but hey, who's next? China? I don't know if you think about it, but there's always at least TWO points of view about ANY situation.
Now, to finish my participation in this topic, and for the last time I will say that my position is NOT against USA and it's not against your flag and it's not against no one in this site, i will try to clarify some things:
1. in 1st place I thought that UN were trying to "stop" something that was unstoppable, since the wounds of that awful terrorist attack against thousands of innocent civilians will take decades to heal.
2. i understand US position against countries that continously have an aggressive position towards them, although i don't consider war as a solution
3. i am happy that Saddam is not ruling it's country anymore
4. i know and i'm aware that Saddam's dictatorship killed thousands of innocent people, and i agree that he must "pay" for that mass murder
5. i'm against terrorism or any similar act against innocent, military, government people or any other ways of terror
6. i aggreed with the position of my government in NOT opposing the conflict since USA are our allies. Portugal didn't sent military forces. We have a small army (i would say around 30.000 man) and in most occasions we don't participate in military conflicts.
7. i agree that you support your people in war scenario, since you have to stick together as a nation in such a difficult moment
8. i don't agree with war, and war missions
9. although i initially accepted the conflict as a way to stop nuclear/mass destruction weapon production by a dangerous dictatorship, now i have my doubts about this topic, since (and i'm saying what i know and what i read and hear on news) there's no evidence of mass destruction weapons being produced there (only were found some missiles that exceeded the defensive range and other weapons that can barely be called as "mass destruction" weapons)
10. I believe that Iraq should take it's president to trial, and he should be punished by the new laws of it's country. He shouldn't be judged anywhere else since the majority of it's crimes were against it's own people.
11. It's a good think that US are helping Iraq to restore order in it's country, but i believe that it would be even better if by this time Iraq could have a transitory government that could decide if they could need any help from other countries (i call that freedom of choice) - i don't think it's happening, but correct me if i'm wrong, since you seem to have more information that i do
12. and last but not least: my apologies for making you think that I had something against your flag. I have nothing against it, and I am not asking no one to take it out. I not agains you support your men in battle. It was only the "mission" part of the sentence that I couldn't agree with.

rgds,
L4G4RT0

 

[L4G4RT0]

aargh, now i get it... it's the topic TITLE!!! I shouldn't have used the "flag" word... THAT was my mistake. The title should've been "A banner, a war and a support"... That was the main problem about all this stuff!!!!