YOU DON'T NEED POWER COMMANDER

giopapy

Registered
Under the rear seat there's a cable wich let you connect the bike with a programmer that all Suzuki dealers own.
By this you can remap fuel injection at low, middle, and high range without wasting money with power commander or similar.
They've done it on my Busa when I installed my Yosh pipes.

mybusacrash03.JPG
 

giopapy

Registered
It will cost you nothing to remap.
Of course I've change the air filter to.
I've done 5% more on low and middle range.

mybusacrash04.JPG
 

Johnnycheese

Registered
Hello and welcome to the stone age.
That yosh box is so outdated.
It was fine before PC's and EMS.
I bet you have no Idea what A/F your bike has
 

jimg

Registered
Hi giopapy

I've had my engine re-mapped like you and also found it easy and
cheap. I ended up with 10 more hp top end and I've just got stock
everything. It also got rid of a few rough running flat spots.

I was wondering what changes in power characteristics you noticed putting on the Yoshi pipes.

Did you lose any bottom or mid range power?
Is the bike much louder?
Does it feel faster?

I'm assuming you have only added Yoshi slip ons, is that correct?

Cheers Jim.
P.S Nice looking bike.
 

Pooghee

Registered
I agree with what you guys are saying. On my TL1000R I had the fuel injection remapped. But they option you get the PC or EMS box is the flexibility to do some tweeking on your own. By the way, you guys got off getting the remapped done for free. I had to pay for mine.
 

giopapy

Registered
I've put the slip on, the air filter, and remapped.
Now the bike has just a little more power torque and just 3 more Hp at the rear wheel, 163.
But the fuel consumption is very different.
The sound is just deeper than before but not so loud.
Bye
 

Dae

Registered
10 hp with cans alone mmmmmmm, never seen that before on a stock engine. got rs 3 yoshis on mine and only see 3hp more after remap. i only had mine remapped to make sure fueling is correct didnt really expect noticeable power gains.:O :eek: :eek:
 

jimg

Registered
Believe it or not
I'm not trying to lie to anybody. I haven't even put new cans
on the bike.

As I said in my topic, I got a re-map done on a standard 2000
Hayabusa on a Dyno using Suzukis own Teka remapping tool.
Personally I don't think 10 odd hp is stuff all to gain after having the engine remapped and I would expect to get even
more if I added after market cans and had the whole lot re-done.

I know these figures are high, but its the difference between
the runs that I'm going on.
Pre map was
536.2lbft torque at 7489rpm and 212.7hp at 9980
After the map it was
551.0lbft torque at 7484rpm and 220.466hp at 9971rpm

Which give me a power improvement of 8hp by a non powercommander remapping.

As I cannot find a scanner I've attempted to photograph
the dyno runs which I'll post after this.
 

Johnnycheese

Registered
Believe it or not
I'm not trying to lie to anybody. I haven't even put new cans
on the bike.

As I said in my topic, I got a re-map done on a standard 2000
Hayabusa on a Dyno using Suzukis own Teka remapping tool.
Personally I don't think 10 odd hp is stuff all to gain after having the engine remapped and I would expect to get even
more if I added after market cans and had the whole lot re-done.

I know these figures are high, but its the difference between
the runs that I'm going on.
Pre map was
536.2lbft torque at 7489rpm and 212.7hp at 9980
After the map it was
551.0lbft torque at 7484rpm and 220.466hp at 9971rpm

Which give me a power improvement of 8hp by a non powercommander remapping.

As I cannot find a scanner I've attempted to photograph
the dyno runs which I'll post after this.
First you are comparing apples to oranges.
The post was about a Yosh box not a TEKA.
Second what Busa has 536# of torque and over 212 HP?:super:
Stock everything .HAHAHA I say you are a good BS artist
and where is the A/F graph.
 

infieldg

Registered
I have no idea why the figures on Jim's dyno run are so inflated,   that shop always does that but the percentage increase they represent is accurate and repeatable.

All Jim has ever claimed is that he took his stock NEW ZEALAND SPEC Busa,  with NEW ZEALAND SPEC mufflers, to a shop with a dyno and had them spend all day remapping the ignition and fuel maps to make optimal power with our 98 octane fuel and cool climate,  and not only did he FEEL a very noticeable improvement throughout the rev range,  but he saw an increase in peak power of 3.65% which if the bike was really making 160bhp at the wheel initially would represent a 5.8bhp increase to 165.8bhp,  still a very healthy jump just for remapping the stock computer and you should be grateful to him for relaying this information to you without jumping down his throat and discouraging him and anyone else from ever sharing their experiences with you in the future.

We have NO emission laws here in New Zealand nor judging by our new Harleys do we have any noise laws so our bikes almost certainly come with more free-flowing mufflers than US and UK bikes,   so I would expect this to allow greater gains to be possible from remapping purely for performance in our colder climate especially when running on the 98 octane fuel we have on tap here which eliminates any knocking when you really fang it,  and the performance robbing retarding that comes with it (case in point, stock JZA80 Toyota Supra makes 326bhp in the UK but only 320bhp in the US because the fuel is worse).

And as we're talking about a simple speed density with lookup map,  how can anything be superior to editting the actual lookup map in a naturally aspirated application where variables such as manifold vacuum, intake temp, water temp, rpm, throttle opening, road speed etc etc etc are all within the stock range hence not off the map?  Feel free to flame me if you're sure a power commander or yoshi or some other external plug-in that either overrides the factory map with one that looks just like Jim's one now does,  or crudely fiddles sensor values to force the lookup of a different cell to get a different pulse width will give a better result but please,  back it up with facts - not dyno runs,  because we aren't comparing the exact same maps are we so it's pointless.  I'm happy to be proven wrong,  seriously,  but I can't for the life of me see how anything can beat remapping stock.

Geoff.
 

infieldg

Registered
My bad - the percent increase is actually 3.65%,  the 1.03(65) quoted was the factor by which it increased (ie. 220.466/212.7) - well spotted!! :)  I've editted the post to correct that.

That still corresponds to the same 5.84 horsepower increase though (160 * 220.466 / 212.7 = 165.84).

PS.  Johnny Cheese are you planning to read any of the posts you flame anytime soon?  Taking your posts one at a time ;

(1) You said the 'yosh box' is outdated.   Giopapy doesn't have a yosh box, he remapped the stock one. He has yosh PIPES.

(2) You questioned Jim's 10hp gain with slipons. He does NOT have slipons, he remapped the stock ecu just like the original poster.

(3) You asked for the A/F.  Why?  What are you expecting to see?  Say he has 12.8:1 at WOT and you have the same and make less power, so what?  All else has to be equal and it isn't because Jim has a New Zealand Busa with different miles different oil different usage and running in, different chain, different sprockets and most of all, DIFFERENT FUEL!

(4) You tell him he's comparing different kinds of fruit because the post was about a yoshi box.  It wasn't, it was about remapping stock ecus.  Just like Jim did.  How about that?  He's on topic,  you're off topic,  and I suspect off-planet as well.

And still you ask for the A/F graph.  Why?  You obviously can't read.
 

BusaGeek

Registered
Under the rear seat there's a cable wich let you connect the bike with a programmer that all Suzuki dealers own.
By this you can remap fuel injection at low, middle, and high range without wasting money with power commander or similar.
That is a perfect description of a Yosh box.  It does not quite describe a TEKA.  JohnnyCheese is on topic, you are not.

Your 98 octane fuel is similar to our 93.  We use the average of Research and Motor Octane numbers on our pumps, you guys just put the Research Octane Number on the pump, hence the different numbers for the same fuel.

As for your point, remapping the ECU and altering the output of the ECU do the same thing when all is said and done.  They alter the fuel being sent to the cylinders.  Just because your way seems more ''right'' doesn't make it any better.  The Power Commander simply has more options.  Anything that can be done with a Yosh box or TEKA can be done with a Power Commander.  There are many things the Power Commander can do that neither the Yosh box or TEKA can do, like change fueling in 1% increments at each 1000 rpm.

An finally, how can you trust someone's opinion on tuning bikes when he can't get his dyno to read within 35% of the correct HP and the torque is way out in left field.  The graph you posted has 5 torque curves and one of them peaks at under 2000 rpm!!!!!!
 

infieldg

Registered
But Jim never expressed an opinion!!! He just told you "I know the figures are high but the difference between them is what I'm interested in". Everyone can see the raw numbers are too high. Please read before you attack! He is the most honest person I have EVER met and is just sharing his experience for God's sake. And as for having '5 torque graphs some peaking below 2000rpm' his instructions to the dyno operator were to remove a flatspot at cruise AND to gain more power. The dyno they used was capable of determining throttle opening percentage and was therefore able to make repeatable runs at certain percentages of throttle opening, critical to simulating on road performance. Happy? No, probably not.

I emailed the shop with this dyno demanding to know why their figures were 40% higher than everyone else and they came up with rubbish that I'm in the middle of responding to right now, it's crazy talk they probably have farenheit and celcius mixed up in their correction factors or something but the dyno results are consistent and repeatable so the comparison is valid!

BusaGeek, you've lost me, someone said he had his busa remapped, he did NOT specify which of the many FI Adjusters was used to do it, cheese pipes up with 'yoshi box' and 'stone age', then accuses Jim of being offtopic for posting his experiences with doing exactly the same thing as the first poster who started this thread, and now you tell me I'M off topic because something cheese said was "a perfect description of a yoshi box"? WHAT was a perfect description? Likewise WHAT does not describe a Teka? Jim did the same thing as the original poster and his authorized Suzuki dealer happened to use a TEKA FI Adjuster. Who cares what he used? He gained 3.65% more power and has graphs to prove it but some people would rather believe that buying a box is the ONLY way to improve power. The original post was an attempt to help save people money I suspect, nice of him but he got flamed.

I only said that I didn't see how the other boxes could be so much better that (a) cheese would ridicule remapping the stock ECU, and (b) everyone would refute the additional power claims from remapping the stock ecu, simply because a map is a map is a map. I would hope that any programmer for a stock Suzuki ecu would give you access to every map entry and that if one is missing it is because Suzuki perform interpolation at that point. I dunno but would a piggy-back box be any different? Perhaps, I don't know and I freely admit it which is why I asked to be proven wrong, I like learning new stuff, but the point is you should not assume that there is no power to be gained by remapping the stock ecu, to the point of rubbishing actual dyno comparisons on the same dyno/bike/day just because the figures are high. For my money I'm a PCIIIR because I can create/upload/download maps when I make changes.

My point about the octane was in regards to the air fuel ratio demands. Our 98 has a RON of 98 (duh) and a MON of only 87 giving an Anti Knock Index (AKI) or PON of about 92.5 which is poor so I was wrong to keep waving the number 98 around like it was great, however we use huge amounts of toluene to achieve this octane (sooty!), which gives different characteristics to our fuel including a taste for rubber fuel components! It's so different that in mass stoichometric terms, BP Ultimate 98 requires a ratio of 12.0:1. By comparison BP 100 racing fuel (that's 100 MON, and 110 RON) requires a ratio of 12.9:1 and BP Regular Unleaded 12.5:1. These are BP's own figures and illustrate my point that if you tune a bike to a specific fuel that is quite different to the target fuel, you can obviously find more power quite easily depending on how different the fuel is.

Furthermore, does this not illustrate my point that cheese's constant request for A/F curves is futile? What use are they when as you can now hopefully see, different fuelds have different ratios for best performance? This 98 we have, imported from Perth in Western Australia, caused a hell of an outcry when it was first introduced, people were queuing up complaining about plugs turning black (and rubber melting). The solution was to change the air fuel ration and timing, rather like, oh I dunno, remapping your Busa?

This forum is vicious, not about helping each other at all.

Geoff.
 

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