stabilizer ?
- Thread starter kennym4
- Start date
tuf let me throw a couple of thought in here....
Why do you use different settings between track and street?
You are aware that your braided lines gave you a different feel but had no effect on your bikes braking ability? Your stock brake lines flex slightly to give the lever a softer less agressive feel. Suzuki does this in order to keep more of the less experienced novice riders on two wheels. How may times this year alone have we seen guys lock the front and fall down due to an unexpected emergency situation? This upgrade is more like going from mechanical brakes on your car to power brakes. No more braking power but it takes less pedal input to obtain the same brake force.
Pads are basically the same. No more stopping power but they are more agressive. You can lock the front with stock equipment, just takes more muscle on the lever. However, steel lines and HH pads will allow you to lock the tire with less effort. Which by the way, is not always a good idea. Especially for the guy who never puts in any time practicing hard braking. The novice should never attempt trail braking with agressive brakes.
Yes, rotary dampers are still secondary to rod dampers! Not degrading a rotary damper, they work just fine. Just not as effective as rod dampers.
Your damper did give you a different feel and if this feel gives you confidence, it's well worth the upgrade. However, the damper serves absolutely no purpose other than confidence until or unless you get the tires out of alignment with each other.
Most folks think it's the damper that calms head shake. The damper helps but the amount of "Trail" your bike has determines how stable and how quickly it corrects mistakes. A damper will help to keep a head shake from becoming a slapper. These ugly situations are usually created by the rider. Many riders get themselve into trouble when they start playing with the bikes geometry. It's like loading a gun, it's not dangerous when it's loaded unless you pull the trigger!
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Confidence is the toughest aspect of ability. Either one without the other usually leads to a crash!
Wise Man! The better tire you ride the bigger mistakes you can get away with!
I prefer to call these disagreements "Discussions" and they have huge benifits to everyone. Its always good to explore subjects such as this into deeper depths!
tuf let me throw a couple of thought in here....
Why do you use different settings between track and street?
You are aware that your braided lines gave you a different feel but had no effect on your bikes braking ability? Your stock brake lines flex slightly to give the lever a softer less agressive feel. Suzuki does this in order to keep more of the less experienced novice riders on two wheels. How may times this year alone have we seen guys lock the front and fall down due to an unexpected emergency situation? This upgrade is more like going from mechanical brakes on your car to power brakes. No more braking power but it takes less pedal input to obtain the same brake force.
Pads are basically the same. No more stopping power but they are more agressive. You can lock the front with stock equipment, just takes more muscle on the lever. However, steel lines and HH pads will allow you to lock the tire with less effort. Which by the way, is not always a good idea. Especially for the guy who never puts in any time practicing hard braking. The novice should never attempt trail braking with agressive brakes.
Yes, rotary dampers are still secondary to rod dampers! Not degrading a rotary damper, they work just fine. Just not as effective as rod dampers.
Your damper did give you a different feel and if this feel gives you confidence, it's well worth the upgrade. However, the damper serves absolutely no purpose other than confidence until or unless you get the tires out of alignment with each other.
Most folks think it's the damper that calms head shake. The damper helps but the amount of "Trail" your bike has determines how stable and how quickly it corrects mistakes. A damper will help to keep a head shake from becoming a slapper. These ugly situations are usually created by the rider. Many riders get themselve into trouble when they start playing with the bikes geometry. It's like loading a gun, it's not dangerous when it's loaded unless you pull the trigger!
.
Confidence is the toughest aspect of ability. Either one without the other usually leads to a crash!
Wise Man! The better tire you ride the bigger mistakes you can get away with!
I prefer to call these disagreements "Discussions" and they have huge benifits to everyone. Its always good to explore subjects such as this into deeper depths!
On our crappy roads here in the "Hub of the Midwest”, a damper provides stability when the road conditions change in the blink of an eye. The wind blows steady at 35mph+ on many days. Passing semi trucks and the sudden "air blast" tries to make unwanted lane changes for you.
The bike is just so much more "planted" with a good damper. Lane groves are a non issue with a good damper. The bike will not "dance" on grooved pavement. If and when you strike one of the many foreign objects dropped in the road by the motoring public, the bike will maintain a linear line more easily. It will brake straighter in a panic situation. If by chance, you have left the pavement to avoid a collision or just ran off the road due to bad case of HUA, recovering from it is much easier.
Few riders are experts, nor can they avoid and/or plan for every bad situation.
Motorcycles are inherently unstable by design. Two wheels connected by a swivel. At speed, stability increases due to the gyroscopic effect but, they are still free to pivot on the swivel. A good damper slows down the swivel effect and allows the tires to better track in a single line.
I have personally experienced more situations where the GPR saved me in bad situations both pleasure riding and at work.
I would not be without it.
Just like ABS, it is a safety device - ABS is another story, for another thread.
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you stated "Yes, rotary dampers are still secondary to rod dampers!"
Where can I find the testing to support this?
Where can I find the testing to support this?
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Find photos of the hooters suzuki bikes with GPR (Sponsor) stabilizers you'll find the arm on the GPR unit has been removed. If you look down in the stock position you'll find an Ohlins rod damper tucked away out of sight.
The only bikes you'll find with rotary dampers are bikes that can't fit a rod damper.
The only bikes you'll find with rotary dampers are bikes that can't fit a rod damper.
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Different riding conditions require different settings... On the hwy at 70 mph with the wind, debris in the road, potholes and unlevel surfaces I want the bike to be as straight as I can get it with as least chance of something creating wobble or throwing the bike over. On the highway I run 20, it tightens the front end up nicely at those speeds making the bike like an arrow.
You can explain it all you want, in the end there are hundreds of people on this site that will tell you that putting braided lines on your bike will make a difference in your bikes stopping, regardless if it is a spongy feel that was intended (Suzuki reps told me the same thing) for novice riders that spongy feel goes away and when you grab the brakes the bike stops with less effort..
I understand what you are saying but I would easily suggest that a rider with a new GRP should start at a low setting and just click up as the comfort level improves. I know that in my personal experiences on the track that taking some of the feel of the bumps and uneven pavement out of the handle bars helped me alot. I run the GRP at 15 on the track because I want a stiffer movement while running the curves but there are also slow turns that I need to be able to move the handlebars without having to bench press 300 lbs too. Its just a comprise as to what each track requires...
I can't disagree with you especially since your a track coach Im sure you have seen your share. For me personally the feel of the bike in my hands is as important as my ability. I can have the most talent but if I don't have confidence in my equipment and my abilities then I will never do my best. Maybe you would define it as the plecebo effect but regardless I can tell a gigantic difference in the ride, response and feel of the bike.
Not sure about wise my friend, how about I just learn from others.... A set of tires is much cheaper than a set of plastics..
You got that right, this is a discussion, in no way is this an argument because no one can win... I personally think there is a large margin of disagreement that is directly proportional to the skill level of the rider.. You as a track coach see things one way, I see them another... In a few years I may agree with you but for now the only thing I can tell you is what I have experienced and what has helped me keep the rubber on the road... We will never be any better, we will never help anyone else ride if we don't have these conversations... I tend to look at members sometimes as dog and cat people... Both have their places in this world, some like dogs, some like cats, neither is wrong and neither is right it's just a personal preference.....
Keep the information coming back Steven it helps the others I think....
cap
I have a Ohlins on my track bike. And a stocker on my busa.
Hey Shane, do the stabilizer mod on your busa!
Takes 90 wt antifreeze and you'll pick up about ten seconds a lap!
Kenny, sorry for this "kinda thread jack" conversation, it sounds like you are totally OK with it though.
Steven, I regard you as quite an expert in the field of high performance riding so it is with great respect that I disagree with something you said, that is, "stainless lines have no effect on your bikes braking ability". My experience contradicts that....I have ridden a 1000cc motorcycle on a 100 degree day for 1/2 hour at 90% plus effort. The bike had stock rubber front brake lines. I heated up the system (DOT 4) so badly that the lever could come within 1/2" of contact with the grip at the end of the ride under max braking. When stainless front lines were installed....no other changes....the bike's brakes were transformed! I was unable to induce fade as before and the lever had 1" less collapse to it under max braking.
I'm just sayin! Doyle
Steven, I regard you as quite an expert in the field of high performance riding so it is with great respect that I disagree with something you said, that is, "stainless lines have no effect on your bikes braking ability". My experience contradicts that....I have ridden a 1000cc motorcycle on a 100 degree day for 1/2 hour at 90% plus effort. The bike had stock rubber front brake lines. I heated up the system (DOT 4) so badly that the lever could come within 1/2" of contact with the grip at the end of the ride under max braking. When stainless front lines were installed....no other changes....the bike's brakes were transformed! I was unable to induce fade as before and the lever had 1" less collapse to it under max braking.
I'm just sayin! Doyle
I run a rotary damper and love it. However, I can see where a rod type would have an advantage because of the distance between the two mounting points. The further it is the more leverage and stroke length involved making it easier for the device to control the unwanted movements. The only rod type I have run is a stocker on the busa. In my experience, the GPR I’m running now a big improvement over the stocker.
As far as professional motorsports. I know for a fact that not all teams are using the items they advertise. I have seen personally seen competing tires being used with the identifying info sanded off to make it look like a test tire of the sponsors. The oil in the cars is not always what is on the sticker in all levels. Coatings from one manufacturer but sponsored by the competition. If I was required to put a GPR on my bike and the Ohlins worked better, I'd modify the Ohlins so it did not operate. (but the lever would be there). The Ohlins would be painted and modified to hide its appearance.
I promise you things like this happen not necessarily with these two products.
My feelings. Zuk found that the Busa needed one, and put one on it. Production costs are enough of a concern that they would not have otherwise done so. I also believe that they did not put the best available on it for the same reasons. Just like chains, forks, rear shocks, tiresb brake components, etc, the damper may be adequate but there is room for improvement. If that gives the rider more confidence, then that is enough by itself to make an improvement.
As far as professional motorsports. I know for a fact that not all teams are using the items they advertise. I have seen personally seen competing tires being used with the identifying info sanded off to make it look like a test tire of the sponsors. The oil in the cars is not always what is on the sticker in all levels. Coatings from one manufacturer but sponsored by the competition. If I was required to put a GPR on my bike and the Ohlins worked better, I'd modify the Ohlins so it did not operate. (but the lever would be there). The Ohlins would be painted and modified to hide its appearance.
I promise you things like this happen not necessarily with these two products.My feelings. Zuk found that the Busa needed one, and put one on it. Production costs are enough of a concern that they would not have otherwise done so. I also believe that they did not put the best available on it for the same reasons. Just like chains, forks, rear shocks, tiresb brake components, etc, the damper may be adequate but there is room for improvement. If that gives the rider more confidence, then that is enough by itself to make an improvement.
IG.
Registered
I wanted to agree with Tufbusa and expand on his thought:
"...the damper serves absolutely no purpose ... until or unless you get the tires out of alignment with each other... "
And this happens relatively rarely. So, if someone comments that their regular riding feels noticeably better because they added a stabilizer, then it's either in their head, or they have another issue in riding.
I've ridden for a couple of years before I really needed a stabiliezer to save me - it was a stocker with stock oil in it, and it didn't save me - but that's another story. But, that was one time when the front got light, got croocket because of my steering input, and when regained traction, all hell broke loose. I did fill it in with a thicker grade gear oil since then.
Recently, my front caught some air and landed a bit croocked - a couple of bounces back and forth, and that was the end of it -no drama.
I've analyzed alot since my incident in '05, and one of the main conclusions I came to was how important it was to anticipate when your front can get light and stop your steering input for the moment.
Also, how important is overall shift of the weight to the inside of the turn and down. By doing so, going over the same curve requires a lot less steering input in order to maintain that curve - so any time you have less steering input, the less the front wheel will turn if by any chance it gets light. Needless to say, a relaxed grip on the handlebars is essential.
Slightly changing gears, so to speak, my damper has always had a free play in the vertical plane - I thought it was meant by design.
"...the damper serves absolutely no purpose ... until or unless you get the tires out of alignment with each other... "
And this happens relatively rarely. So, if someone comments that their regular riding feels noticeably better because they added a stabilizer, then it's either in their head, or they have another issue in riding.
I've ridden for a couple of years before I really needed a stabiliezer to save me - it was a stocker with stock oil in it, and it didn't save me - but that's another story. But, that was one time when the front got light, got croocket because of my steering input, and when regained traction, all hell broke loose. I did fill it in with a thicker grade gear oil since then.
Recently, my front caught some air and landed a bit croocked - a couple of bounces back and forth, and that was the end of it -no drama.
I've analyzed alot since my incident in '05, and one of the main conclusions I came to was how important it was to anticipate when your front can get light and stop your steering input for the moment.
Also, how important is overall shift of the weight to the inside of the turn and down. By doing so, going over the same curve requires a lot less steering input in order to maintain that curve - so any time you have less steering input, the less the front wheel will turn if by any chance it gets light. Needless to say, a relaxed grip on the handlebars is essential.
Slightly changing gears, so to speak, my damper has always had a free play in the vertical plane - I thought it was meant by design.
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You are absolutely correct Doyle, the steel lines will help with brake fade once the fluid reaches the boiling point. However, with that being said, it's actually the fluid that causes brake fade, not the lines. Of course the pads become less effective as well. The steel lines just give you a bit more lever via less flex but no more stopping power. Fluid with a higher boiling point would be more benificial than steel lines. Although both would be a grand advantage!
My point is, it takes "X" amount of grip from the pads to lock the rotors in place. It doesn't matter if you have stock or steel braided lines it still takes "X" amount of pressure. You can reach "X" with either OEM or steel, only one takes more lever pull than the other. That's the difference in the two.
I know some very accomplished racers that prefer OEM lines. According to them the OEM brakes are much easier to modulate while trail braking. I personally use steel lines and EBC Extreme Pro HH pads. Works great for me because I'm a lazy bastid. I can brake just as hard using stock brakes but makes my right forearm look like it's swollen!
You are correct, once the brakes are overheated (And it's easy to do on a busa) the steel lines are a nice advantage. Even with steel lines your brakes will become less and less effective under extreme conditions as the heat increases!
My point is, it takes "X" amount of grip from the pads to lock the rotors in place. It doesn't matter if you have stock or steel braided lines it still takes "X" amount of pressure. You can reach "X" with either OEM or steel, only one takes more lever pull than the other. That's the difference in the two.
I know some very accomplished racers that prefer OEM lines. According to them the OEM brakes are much easier to modulate while trail braking. I personally use steel lines and EBC Extreme Pro HH pads. Works great for me because I'm a lazy bastid. I can brake just as hard using stock brakes but makes my right forearm look like it's swollen!
You are correct, once the brakes are overheated (And it's easy to do on a busa) the steel lines are a nice advantage. Even with steel lines your brakes will become less and less effective under extreme conditions as the heat increases!
You need to come to Oklahoma and ride in a 40 mph wind, you can literally cick that dial going 70 and feel the bike stiffen up.. Once again you can try to explain it away but the truth is there and experienced by hundreds of people... It's not a mind thing either... I have had my back end break loose 3 times this summer and the GPR did exactly as it was supposed to, Uncle Steve had the same thing as well as RacerV, there are three guys with decent riding experience that is telling you that there is a difference and having a stabilizer is worth the money....
I would have to ask you this, what would constitute putting the tires out of alignment? Would it be a bump in the track, uneven surfaces? If so those are the very things that cause that uneasy feeling while in a lean on the track... My stabilizer took those bumps and movement out of the handlebars when I installed it...
cap
I agree with Tuf.
I've got the stock unit on my 08. Never had a wiggle, shake or a wobble. I hit the edge of a bridge at 60 + while leaned over, launched the bike over 3 feet to the outside of the turn, bent both rims, smacked the bars against the stop. Not a wiggle, shake or a wobble. Step the back out regularly in the twisties in the hills, I don't see how a damper will help with that. I lock the throttle and ride miles with out hands on the bars never a wiggle, shake or wobble. Even no hands passing a semi doesn't shake, wiggle or wobble the bike.
The stock unit has been flawless. I would upgrade it in a heart beat if I thought there would be a benefit. I think dampers are like swapping out the air filter for aftermarket, or using some high end oil. Marketing is a wonderful thing. Since it's more expensive its got to be better right? It's a perceived benefit, not a realized one, but if it makes you feel better by all means get one.
I've got the stock unit on my 08. Never had a wiggle, shake or a wobble. I hit the edge of a bridge at 60 + while leaned over, launched the bike over 3 feet to the outside of the turn, bent both rims, smacked the bars against the stop. Not a wiggle, shake or a wobble. Step the back out regularly in the twisties in the hills, I don't see how a damper will help with that. I lock the throttle and ride miles with out hands on the bars never a wiggle, shake or wobble. Even no hands passing a semi doesn't shake, wiggle or wobble the bike.
The stock unit has been flawless. I would upgrade it in a heart beat if I thought there would be a benefit. I think dampers are like swapping out the air filter for aftermarket, or using some high end oil. Marketing is a wonderful thing. Since it's more expensive its got to be better right? It's a perceived benefit, not a realized one, but if it makes you feel better by all means get one.
kennym4
Registered
This isn't a JACK, it's a bonus ! (I just don't have too much to add...just learning)
I kinda remember the same things being said about putting in heavier weight oil in the stock dampener.
Hey Tuff, by the way what you said about the plastic pieces is what I "think" the problem is, because the steering feels fine (normal) but it moves up & down more than it use to, I can feel it in the bars on bumpy roads.
I would like to have an Ohlins dampener though just because
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