Massive Accident Caused By Bike running

[Jimshog]

I too saw last night’s 10:00 news and heard the female anchor attempt to attach the ‘bullet-bike’ label to the accident. I thought it was rather resourceful for the on-site reporter to suddenly have technical difficulty with the audio feed, maybe he’s a rider too? Aside from the obvious tragedy, my biggest fear for us all is the public backlash – there were a lot of people caught up in traffic as a result of the accident with the beltway being shut down. I also agree that the officer should be held responsible; he took a poorly calculated risk and the result cost two innocent people their lives. I’m sure that it must be increasingly difficult for LEO’s to enforce the law while saddled with restrictions about pursuits but this event pretty much exemplifies why the restrictions exist. IMHO, nothing good will come from any of this.
-Jim

 

[Rayabusa0818]

Before you think about running from the police you may want to read this recent Supreme Court ruling upholding the police's right to chase and to terminate the chase with force.

IMHO running is the wrong choice.

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06pdf/05-1631.pdf

 

[BusaWhipped]

(VaBusa @ May 31 2007,07:58) I may be the minority here, but I do believe that motorcyclist, if ever found, should be held accountable...

I agree that the biker needs to he held accountable for his actions: speeding, reckless driving, evading, and probably a few more that should take him off the streets for a while. But the cop also needs to be held accountable for his actions as well. The officer should be trained to make good decisions whether to pursue or not. In this case, it appears that the cop's decision to pursue was not a good one. Radio is faster than rubber, but you don't get the adrenalin rush from pressing a mic key.

 

[Rayabusa0818]

(BusaWhipped @ May 31 2007,11:34)

(VaBusa @ May 31 2007,07:58) I may be the minority here, but I do believe that motorcyclist, if ever found, should be held accountable...

I agree that the biker needs to he held accountable for his actions: speeding, reckless driving, evading, and probably a few more that should take him off the streets for a while.  But the cop also needs to be held accountable for his actions as well.  The officer should be trained to make good decisions whether to pursue or not.  In this case, it appears that the cop's decision to pursue was not a good one.  Radio is faster than rubber, but you don't get the adrenalin rush from pressing a mic key.

+1 Well said

 

[VaBusa]

(BusaWhipped @ May 31 2007,11:34)

(VaBusa @ May 31 2007,07:58) I may be the minority here, but I do believe that motorcyclist, if ever found, should be held accountable...

I agree that the biker needs to he held accountable for his actions: speeding, reckless driving, evading, and probably a few more that should take him off the streets for a while.  But the cop also needs to be held accountable for his actions as well.  The officer should be trained to make good decisions whether to pursue or not.  In this case, it appears that the cop's decision to pursue was not a good one.  Radio is faster than rubber, but you don't get the adrenalin rush from pressing a mic key.

I agree, but I also can't imagine that in those first few seconds you really mull over all the what-ifs; you don't have time...believe me, if I had lost family under circumstances like this, I'd have a tough time not blaming the cop, but I'm trying to envision what it's like for them to make these split-second decisions and in life, for all of us, bad things can happen in an instant...

Wonder if there'd be much bad press had the person running was not on a bike?  

 And a point raised that I hadn't pondered was what if this biker didn't know he was even being chased?  After watching that vid posted recently with the cop knocking over the bike after pulling the guy, I never saw what in the hell those cops in the cage were pursuing!  That biker didn't know they were all hyped up and coming after 'em, so perhaps the same is the case here...

Too many unknowns to form a solid opinion I guess...

 

[race24x]

So you are running from the cops he pulls out a gun and shoots so widly at you while driving by that he kills someones kid on the sidewalk. The guy on the bike is responsible for the cops improper use and poor training as well as human stupidity. Not saying run from the cops but if there training is so bad a cop hits a car and kills 2 people maybe some idiot at the department should review there chase policies

 

[NCpanther01]

I've read everyone thread and they're some good points to be made. But I have a hard time thinking the biker driver doesn't know. We talk amoungst each other about safety, while answering questions asked by others determining if the BUSA is the right bike for them. And no body has in my opinion stated the why is anyone driving that hard through traffic. Now I'm a runner too but I'm a control runner. And I'm always in the lookout for LEOs! I can't imagine telling someone child that their dad/mom is DEAD becasue of a very careless act! Busa fam does it matter who's fault it is! Someone is not here to debate this issue becasue of some careless acts, which could have been avoided....MY2CENTS.

 

[IG.]

Let's go to the fundamentals for a moment. Why cops chase speeders - any vehicle? Because of the notion that a speeding vehicle poses a danger to others by increasing the likelyhood of an accident. So they chase and try to stop/punish speeders as a preventive measure to reduce the risk of a potential accident.

What in this situation is completely overlooked or purposefully disregarded by a simple minded government is that a vehicle traveling fast in light traffic for that specific moment (up to a second) and especially a motorcycle, do not greatly increase a chance of an accident (especially compared to many other distractions regular drivers exibit), and there is no point to chase it. Period. And on top of that, any chase does greatly increase a chance of an accident.

But that's using of logic, and the government is not good at that.

So, the huge part of the blame goes to the government which imposed a ridiculous rule - chase down a speeding vehicle.

 

[VaBusa]

What if that "speeding vehicle" carried weapons, a murderer, a suspect with a kidnapped child?  What if that vehicle was used in a crime where others were hurt or killed?  Most that do run are running for a reason; they've done wrong or have something with them that would land 'em in jail.

Far too many unknowns about this particular case at the moment, but take any case where cops pursue and try to weigh all of the reasons why he/she may opt to go after 'em.  I do believe that most cops pursue to try and stop worse from happening.  I don't think any of them chase thinking "I may cause a bad situation to be even worse" though I definitely agree with the idea of calling ahead for others in the area to cut off a speeding vehicle further up the road...

I still have to go back to holding those that run accountable...do they not get any blame for their decision to run?  

 

[Cblast]

If they are making split second life and death decisions, they should be making the correct decisions. Hind sight is always 20/20 but if they are not competent to make decisions under pressure they should not be Police Officers. I am a former Marine, was in a long time. My Job was 0331 - Machine gunner. My wife is a sailor currently deployed on a carrier, my best friend whom I named my son after and who had my back in combat is now a Police Officer. I have had and still do make decisions under intense pressure, training is required. If I screw up and kill innocent people along with other collateral damage, the guilty I was targeting do not get blamed. I AM HELD ACCOUNTABLE. I fully understand that Police work is not the Military. But me and my conscience must answer for my decisions, I do not get to blame someone else. If these Police Officers are making poor split second decisions, they should not be Police Officers.

 

[IScream]

(VaBusa @ May 31 2007,13:39) Most that do run are running for a reason; they've done wrong or have something with them that would land 'em in jail.  

I'm not sure I agree with you here. I'm sure some percentage run for the reasons you state but most I've known to run on Sport Bikes have done it because they thought it was cool, or fun, or something similar.

I haven't done it for many years, but I used to when I was younger. Yes, now I do think it was wrong of me. I will say that I never did it in traffic though. It was always out on country roads and it was almost always over in a minute or two but, I still could have hurt somebody. In my case it was never because I had old tickets or warrants, I just didn't want a new ticket.

I actually got caught once when I was 16, but I was in a car. After having a loaded gun pointed at my head and being drug out through the car window things settled down and I was talking to the cops. It was very obvious they enjoyed it.

 

[IScream]

(Cblast @ May 31 2007,13:58) If they are making split second life and death decisions, they should be making the correct decisions.  Hind sight is always 20/20 but if they are not competent to make decisions under pressure they should not be Police Officers.  

Absolutely. If they can't make a good decision on whether or not to chase a motorcycle, why would we trust them to decide when and where to discharge their weapon?

 

[VaBusa]

(IScream @ May 31 2007,14:58)

(VaBusa @ May 31 2007,13:39) Most that do run are running for a reason; they've done wrong or have something with them that would land 'em in jail.  

I'm not sure I agree with you here.  I'm sure some percentage run for the reasons you state but most I've known to run on Sport Bikes have done it because they thought it was cool, or fun, or something similar.

I haven't done it for many years, but I used to when I was younger.  Yes, now I do think it was wrong of me.  I will say that I never did it in traffic though.  It was always out on country roads and it was almost always over in a minute or two but, I still could have hurt somebody.  In my case it was never because I had old tickets or warrants, I just didn't want a new ticket.

I actually got caught once when I was 16, but I was in a car.  After having a loaded gun pointed at my head and being drug out through the car window things settled down and I was talking to the cops.  It was very obvious they enjoyed it.

I wasn't just thinking in terms of sport bikers; I do realize many run for the thrill and bragging rights...IN GENERAL though, many do run because they've done something VERY wrong, have drugs on their person, have a record a mile long and possibly no license, on probation, etc...my point was that in a moment of decision making, and the scenario for a cop is that the person he's thinking of pursuing has done something that warrants him being pulled and/or jailed, I can see why they chase...

If it is ever deemed illegal to chase, I wouldn't be one to fight or argue the point FOR A CHASE because I see the bad side of the acts as do so many families, but with the laws AS IS right now, it's tough for me to pick apart officers for split-second decisions they have to make on the job and completely dismiss what that person that opted to run did.  I'm not saying they all do the right thing, but I think the intent for most of them is soley "hey, I'm doing my job and this guy/girl that's running needs to be stopped"...and for all that we think we would/could/should do in a moment like that, even with the best of training and most well thought out plans, hindsight is 20/20 and you NEVER know what could happen during the chase, good, bad or otherwise...

With regards to this particular case, I don't know what to think since we don't have all of the facts, but in general, I see why cops give chase and I still find those that opt to run at fault for whatever happens because of their illegal actions...just my $.02

 

[VaBusa]

(IScream @ May 31 2007,15:00)

(Cblast @ May 31 2007,13:58) If they are making split second life and death decisions, they should be making the correct decisions.  Hind sight is always 20/20 but if they are not competent to make decisions under pressure they should not be Police Officers.  

Absolutely.  If they can't make a good decision on whether or not to chase a motorcycle, why would we trust them to decide when and where to discharge their weapon?

That's a whole other can of worms! You're talking about a problem from the hiring and/or training process...definitely a place and time to make certain the guys/gals you've got in your department are competent decision makers...

 

[VaBusa]

I'd actually love to hear from the cops we have on here...get their general feel for when and why you chase, do you ever opt out of that?

All of my observations are simply that...arm chair quarterbacking it here

I don't pretend to know the answers, but I do know that it's a shame so many feel we can dismiss what that motorcyclist did completely...

 

[pure_ego]

I don't agree with that no chase rule really..

and I do at the same time before somebody flips out on me.

I think it just encourages it... but at the same time it's not worth the risk to catch some prick going 80mph in a 55 or something.

tough calls for the boys in blue I guess.

sucks though.. hope they catch/nail the little fugger to the wall.

 

[Cblast]

I think that applies here as he made the wrong decision and the media spin is placing blame on the biker. That officer is responsible for the repurcussions of his wrong decision, no one else. Just my opinion and I am not intentionally trying to offend anyone.

 

[Rayabusa0818]

(VaBusa @ May 31 2007,15:35) All of my observations are simply that...arm chair quarterbacking it here

 I don't pretend to know the answers, but I do know that it's a shame so many feel we can dismiss what that motorcyclist did completely...

The bottom line is that if he didn't run there would have been no accident.

 

[VaBusa]

(Rayabusa0818 @ May 31 2007,15:40)

(VaBusa @ May 31 2007,15:35) All of my observations are simply that...arm chair quarterbacking it here

 I don't pretend to know the answers, but I do know that it's a shame so many feel we can dismiss what that motorcyclist did completely...

The bottom line is that if he didn't run there would have been no accident.

Yep, that's exactly how I feel...can't dismiss that this guy ran from the cops and everything that ensued was because of his decision...

 

[Cblast]

The Police Officer was a thinking entity that could have made many decisions in many different ways. What the biker did (run) was already a fact when he (the officer), was making his decisions. His (the officer) decision cost peoples lives. We could also say that if the innocent civilian had just stayed home the officer would not be in trouble right now. But the officer made his decision based on the info he had in front of him. No one but he is responsible for the decision that he made. The biker also made a bad decision, and he should be held accountable for those actions, but he did not kill anyone, the officer did. This is what I refer to as a "welcome to being rsponsible for your own actions" moment, I geuss being a hardheaded Marine and the at home father of and 8yr old and a 2yr old, while my wife is off fighting a war has somewhat influenced my point of view.