HEY RACERS

[kennym4]

Probably a dumb question, but oh well,

while watching a race, I noticed the riders look like they're blipping the throttle going into turns, is that what they're doing, downshifting ?

Now what I really want to know,

Can someone explain to me THE PROPER METHOD of trail braking please ?
And is there anything else you do different on a RACE TRACK, than you do on street ?

 

[black954]

Racers blip the throttle while downshifting to speed up the engine rpm's to more match the trans rpm's so when you let out the clutch, the trans doesn't momentarily lock up the rear tire while it's reaching the same rpm's. If you have heard of the slipper clutch, this is to alleviate the problem. This only happens while downshifting and at high rpm's -which racers do ALOT.
The biggest difference on the race track is that you usually don't use the rear brakes at all unless you are "trailbraking". Trailbraking is when you slow down the rear wheel and actually slide it into a turn, bringing the rear around towards the front of the bike. This is usually when you come into a corner too hot and need to redirect the bike to a tighter line. Only seasoned pro's do this cause it is very difficult to pull off properly.

 

[cosmo]

And is there anything else you do different on a RACE TRACK, than you do on street ? [/Quote]
Exceed the national speed limit by a factor of 3.....legally and routinely. Ya gotta try it

 

[JuiceSC]

Its the proper way do downshift when going fast, car or bike. Blip throttle to match revs, trans downshifts easier. You didn't know about this technique?

 

[WWJD]

does the busa have a pseudo-slipper clutch? I forget. feels like it sometimes..... but I rather enjoy hard down shifts and wiggling a little tail at the track. is that just me? because I really do think it's fun. serious

 

[SnapAttack]

What's a downshift. I just run through the gears... stop... then start all over again.

Seriously, good observation and question.

 

[black954]

yes the busa has a version of a slipper clutch.

 

[DaCol.]

Trail braking can be done with either brake ! I set up the bikes initial stability going into the turn with the rear (setting the suspention) and trail brake the front through the turn. What your doing is holding the front brake and easing off through the turn while decelerating initially into the turn (because your going too fast to make the turn without continuing to brake) and as you ease off the front you add throttle and power out of the turn. Which is different than finishing your braking while still straight up (which most recommend) , enter the turn at you slowest speed, and accelerate through the turn. I really wouldn't recommend practice or doing trail braking on the street, because if you do it wrong (on a track you've got plenty of room (with no cars coming in the opposite direction) to correct your errors) you can drop the front end. And you shouldn't be going at that limit on the street anyway

 

[cosmo]

(black954 @ Aug. 03 2007,19:56) yes the busa has a version of a slipper clutch.

 

[Charlesbusa]

(cosmo @ Aug. 03 2007,21:18)

(black954 @ Aug. 03 2007,19:56) yes the busa has a version of a slipper clutch.

Its called a back-torque limiter

 

[Charlesbusa]

To more easily describe trail braking, you have to first describe what a racer is doing prior to trail braking.  The racer is braking at 100% maximum.  All or almost all weight is compressing the front suspension and tire.  Trail braking can accomplish 2 things.  1)Carry more speed going into a corner.  2)Keep the front suspension and tire compressed to give more traction and not upset the chasis by releasing all the compressed force quickly.

You can carry more speed into the corner because you are using 100% of your tires traction at all times.  Example, 100% of tire's grip goes to braking when straight up and down and 0% to cornering.  50% goes to braking and 50% goes to turning when the bike is somewhat leaned over.  And finally 100% of the tire's grip goes to cornering at the apex with 0% going to braking.  This is a smooth process that must be balanced between braking and cornering depending on lean angle.

Ever see MotoGP riders crash going into a turn with the front wheel turned, yup too much front brake.  After maximum braking you don't want the chasis making any big movements going into a corner, such as releasing the front brake all at once. Also by gradually realeasing the brake, you keep the suspension compressed which gives your more traction.  The braking force that initially compressed the suspension and tire gradually gets replaced with ?centrifugal? force keeping the suspension and tires compressed when at full lean.
Pro-The fastest way around the track.
Con-Too much brake and you lowside.

One way of using the rear brake on entry is normally called "backing it in".  Easier to do on lighter bikes(like dirt bikes

).  
Pro-Can be faster or as fast or maybe not quite as fast as trail braking with the front.
Con-Too much slide and you'll either lowside or high-side  

Both of these techniques should only be used on the track.
On the street you always need to leave yourself a little extra, just in case.  Never go at your limit on the street.

 

[Charlesbusa]

One thing to remember is there is no 1 way of doing it. What works for Nicky Hayden obviously doesn't work for Dani Pedrosa. Ever see Ben Spies elbows, Mat Mlandin never did that with his elbows. And they're all fast fast fast!!

Try different things and go with what works for you.

 

[kennym4]

(JuiceSC @ Aug. 03 2007,20:00) Its the proper way do downshift when going fast, car or bike. Blip throttle to match revs, trans downshifts easier. You didn't know about this technique?  

Of course I did, in my question, i said "is that what they were doing" not WHY were they doing it !!
It just looked SO DRAMATIC

 

[kennym4]

Thanks guys !!!! I wasn't planning on going out, and doing this on the street, just wanted to know. You know how it is, everybody you talk to now days KNOWS EVERYTHING bike related, (parking lot crowd) and wants to teach you "thier way" of doing it. Funny thing is, it's usually the guys that aren't on a bike...."I have an MV, or a Duc, at home".

One more ?
Do all the racers use reverse shifting ? (1 up, the rest down) Have any of you tried it, do you like it ?

 

[kennym4]

I lied !! reading a mag, this guy was talking about the instructor (during a weekend of track racing, lessons) demostrating how you can use the brakes to help you take turns ? He would drive them around the track 2 up, and would only use one hand, and brakes to turn, and show them how much it helps. Was he talking about trailbraking, with rear tire ?

again just wondering, not planning on going out later, and doing this in the nieghborhood.

 

[DaCol.]

(kennym4 @ Aug. 04 2007,03

) Thanks guys !!!!  I wasn't planning on going out, and doing this on the street, just wanted to know. You know how it is, everybody you talk to now days KNOWS EVERYTHING bike related, (parking lot crowd) and wants to teach you "thier way" of doing it. Funny thing is, it's usually the guys that aren't on a bike...."I have an MV, or a Duc, at home".

One more ?
Do all the racers use reverse shifting ? (1 up, the rest down) Have any of you tried it, do you like it ?

No but most do. The reverse shiftinig is so you can shift up a gear while leaned over in a turn. If you had to upshift, then you foot would have to be below the lever, when infact there isn't room for it there in an extreme lean.

 

[DaCol.]

(Charlesbusa @ Aug. 03 2007,22:46) To more easily describe trail braking, you have to first describe what a racer is doing prior to trail braking.  The racer is braking at 100% maximum.  All or almost all weight is compressing the front suspension and tire.  Trail braking can accomplish 2 things.  1)Carry more speed going into a corner.  2)Keep the front suspension and tire compressed to give more traction and not upset the chasis by releasing all the compressed force quickly.

You can carry more speed into the corner because you are using 100% of your tires traction at all times.  Example, 100% of tire's grip goes to braking when straight up and down and 0% to cornering.  50% goes to braking and 50% goes to turning when the bike is somewhat leaned over.  And finally 100% of the tire's grip goes to cornering at the apex with 0% going to braking.  This is a smooth process that must be balanced between braking and cornering depending on lean angle.

Ever see MotoGP riders crash going into a turn with the front wheel turned, yup too much front brake.  After maximum braking you don't want the chasis making any big movements going into a corner, such as releasing the front brake all at once.  Also by gradually realeasing the brake, you keep the suspension compressed which gives your more traction.  The braking force that initially compressed the suspension and tire gradually gets replaced with ?centrifugal? force keeping the suspension and tires compressed when at full lean.
Pro-The fastest way around the track.
Con-Too much brake and you lowside.

One way of using the rear brake on entry is normally called "backing it in".  Easier to do on lighter bikes(like dirt bikes

).  
Pro-Can be faster or as fast or maybe not quite as fast as trail braking with the front.
Con-Too much slide and you'll either lowside or high-side  

Both of these techniques should only be used on the track.
On the street you always need to leave yourself a little extra, just in case.  Never go at your limit on the street.

Charles, that's an excellent discription  

, no wonder you made the GEEK news in Sport Rider

 

[J.Busa]

(kennym4 @ Aug. 04 2007,03

) One more ?
Do all the racers use reverse shifting ? (1 up, the rest down) Have any of you tried it, do you like it ?

My 1000 is set up reverse shift. I like it so much better.! This damm hayabusa doesnt want to go reverse shift with the pedal where I like it to be so I just have to remember wich bike I'm on to keep from doing the wrong thing.....

 

[Charlesbusa]

(kennym4 @ Aug. 04 2007,03

) One more ?
Do all the racers use reverse shifting ? (1 up, the rest down) Have any of you tried it, do you like it ?

MotoGP racer Chris Vermeulen uses the standard shift pattern.  But just about everyone else uses the reversed shifting pattern.

Unless you're upshifting in a left hand corner, its not really necessary to change over.

I still use the standard pattern.

 

[Charlesbusa]

(DaCol. @ Aug. 04 2007,06:57)

(Charlesbusa @ Aug. 03 2007,22:46) To more easily describe trail braking, you have to first describe what a racer is doing prior to trail braking.  The racer is braking at 100% maximum.  All or almost all weight is compressing the front suspension and tire.  Trail braking can accomplish 2 things.  1)Carry more speed going into a corner.  2)Keep the front suspension and tire compressed to give more traction and not upset the chasis by releasing all the compressed force quickly.

You can carry more speed into the corner because you are using 100% of your tires traction at all times.  Example, 100% of tire's grip goes to braking when straight up and down and 0% to cornering.  50% goes to braking and 50% goes to turning when the bike is somewhat leaned over.  And finally 100% of the tire's grip goes to cornering at the apex with 0% going to braking.  This is a smooth process that must be balanced between braking and cornering depending on lean angle.

Ever see MotoGP riders crash going into a turn with the front wheel turned, yup too much front brake.  After maximum braking you don't want the chasis making any big movements going into a corner, such as releasing the front brake all at once.  Also by gradually realeasing the brake, you keep the suspension compressed which gives your more traction.  The braking force that initially compressed the suspension and tire gradually gets replaced with ?centrifugal? force keeping the suspension and tires compressed when at full lean.
Pro-The fastest way around the track.
Con-Too much brake and you lowside.

One way of using the rear brake on entry is normally called "backing it in".  Easier to do on lighter bikes(like dirt bikes

).  
Pro-Can be faster or as fast or maybe not quite as fast as trail braking with the front.
Con-Too much slide and you'll either lowside or high-side  

Both of these techniques should only be used on the track.
On the street you always need to leave yourself a little extra, just in case.  Never go at your limit on the street.

Charles, that's an excellent discription  

, no wonder you made the GEEK news in Sport Rider

Thanks!

I'll have to see if I can think of another good question and get published again