Counter-steering...?

[Revlis]

YEAH, Seriously Bullet...I have taken the basic course twice. And I will be going again here this winter with my wife and some folks from work who have never ridden. I just want to go and watch my wife and buddies wobble around for a little while.

It will make the rest of your riding a whole lot more fun, and will teach you a lot that the books cannot...

 

[RaiderDm]

Heck I made my wife take it when I 1st moved in with her.
It even made her a better pillion.

 

[JonnyZ]

No wonder there are so many post about people dropping their bikes

Oh and Keith Code's books are the most annoying reads available. I tried to read "twist of the wrist" many years ago and threw it out............"now, doesn't that make sense?"............."now, doesn't this help?"....... there's just so much of this one person can take. I tried to ignore all the little quotes till the point I had to make the 3 point attempt into the hardwood stove........."From three point range................YEEEEEESSSSSSS!"

To turn right....at speed........push the right hand foward....the front tire actually turns left of centerline.........bike falls/leans right......bike goes right.........negotiate turn

Want to turn left? push the left hand foward.........tire actually turns to the right of center line........bike falls/leans left.....bike goes left........negotiate turn

This does not apply to parking your bike..... these are not riding speeds

Your actually turning the bike out of your bodies center of gravity..........the bikes center moves to the left or right of the bodies center and you/your body is acted on by gravity causing you to "fall to the road way"...........The bike "leans"
But, centrifugal force and directional momentum prevent the bike from falling over. You are constantly manipulating this affect through rider/bar input in other words............don't let go of the bars......


When nearing the point of maximum lean/ tire slip angle there is an exponetial reduction in the amount of input required to decrease the radius of turn and counter steering is to be applied with great care............

In other words........the further your leaned over the less "counter steer" input required to break the front loose and totally twat the bike.....

Now. go out and try to make a high speed turn by turning the bars as if you were on a bicycle you'll find out lickety split that IT DON'T WORK....

Stop analyzing and start riding..........

"Now...........doesn't this make sense?"...........

 

[CorrodedAlien]

hehehe  to beat it to death...

More about Gyroscopic Progression or Counter Steering

 

[Big O]

 Definitely let us know how you do when you try it again.

Counter steering is what it says, you are steering counter to the direction you want to go.  

If you want to go left steer right, if you want to go right, steer left.  Push your right hand on the bar and you turn right, push your left hand on the bar, you turn left.
  Or...Pull on the left bar to turn right, or pull on the right bar to turn left.  Or pull on the right bar and push on the left to turn left, or pull on the left bar and push on the right to turn right.  Or...
Do the books have pictures?

 

[Revlis]

No wonder there are so many post about people dropping their bikes

Oh and Keith Code's books are the most annoying reads available. I tried to read "twist of the wrist" many years ago and threw it out............"now, doesn't that make sense?"............."now, doesn't this help?"....... there's just so much of this one person can take.  I tried to ignore all the little quotes till the point I had to make the 3 point attempt into the hardwood stove........."From three point range................YEEEEEESSSSSSS!"

To turn right....at speed........push the right hand foward....the front tire actually turns left of centerline.........bike falls/leans right......bike goes right.........negotiate turn

Want to turn left?  push the left hand foward.........tire actually turns to the right of center line........bike falls/leans left.....bike goes left........negotiate turn

This does not apply to parking your bike..... these are not riding speeds  

Your actually turning the bike out of your bodies center of gravity..........the bikes center moves to the left or right of the bodies center and you/your body is acted on by gravity causing you to "fall to the road way"...........The bike "leans"
But, centrifugal force and directional momentum prevent the bike from falling over.  You are constantly manipulating this affect through  rider/bar input in other words............don't let go of the bars......


When nearing the point of maximum lean/ tire slip angle there is an exponetial reduction in the amount of input required to decrease the radius of turn and counter steering is to be applied with great care............

In other words........the further your leaned over the less "counter steer" input required to break the front loose and totally twat the bike.....

Now. go out and try to make a high speed turn by turning the bars as if you were on a bicycle you'll find out lickety split that IT DON'T WORK....

Stop analyzing and start riding..........

"Now...........doesn't this make sense?"...........

Well, It's allways good to have someone here to share their expertise...  

I agree about Codes books being annoying to tears sometimes.  This is what happens when a Motorcyclist tries to write a book.  What KILLS me are the definitions he gives throughout.  Like explaining "panic" or "Custom"  It was killing me. HOWEVER, once you get out there and ride and then read a little his stuff starts making a lot more sense, you just have to sift through because a lot of what he says is invaluable and will make you a better rider.

Take it for what it is...

 

[Hayabusa Man]

[How about the Keith Code book titled Soft Science of Roadracing Motorcycles or something like that? Anyone have it?]

This book examines the psychological aspect of motorcycle riders. And if you think "Twist of the Wrist" was annoying, DON'T READ THIS ONE!!!!!

"Hate It"

 

[VaBusa]

I plan to take the course, alien, I just have to werk it into my schedule. Lately it just ain't happenin'. I plan to take some vacation time soon. The MSF will definitely be a part of that time.

Hey Chris -
I don't know how things are in Georgia, but when I signed up for the MSF Basic Course, I had to wait 5 or 6 months to get in! Every course within two hours drive of me was booked and had waiting lists. It literally took me months to find one just as the dates were set and get myself in!

Might want to do some research ahead of time just to make sure you can get in...hopefully Georgia's got more classes offered...

 

[LoBusa]

Yea, what they said....... with one exception... Revlis said "so called body steering" But it can be done. When I took the Busa to the track, I was having difficulty in a set of "switchback" turns and the instructor could see I was struggling through that stretch everytime I went through it. He suggested instead of countersteering by pushing on the handlebars, that I slide more of my body off the seat and let my arms relax through the turn. He demonstrated and rested his hands on the handlebars through most of the course. It was really quite awesome. By the end of the day, I was using my body weight sliding on and off the seat through the turns moreso than pushing the handlebars. It was less tiring on my arms, and was very smooth. I was also able to lean the bike lower and excelerate smoother coming out of the turn....

I countersteer all the time in everyday riding, but in the twisties I use more body (booty) off the seat steering for smooth transitions through the corners...

Just my .02 Take it for what it's worth.. We all know what opinions are like... but ya better not call me one!!
Lo

 

[VaBusa]

Yea, what they said.......  with one exception...  Revlis said "so called body steering"  But it can be done.  When I took the Busa to the track, I was having difficulty in a set of "switchback" turns and the instructor could see I was struggling through that stretch everytime I went through it.  He suggested instead of countersteering by pushing on the handlebars, that I slide more of my body off the seat and let my arms relax through the turn.  He demonstrated and rested his hands on the handlebars through most of the course.  It was really quite awesome.  By the end of the day, I was using my body weight sliding on and off the seat through the turns moreso than pushing the handlebars.  It was less tiring on my arms, and was very smooth.  I was also able to lean the bike lower and excelerate smoother coming out of the turn....

I countersteer all the time in everyday riding, but in the twisties I use more body (booty) off the seat steering for smooth transitions through the corners...

Just my .02   Take it for what it's worth..  We all know what opinions are like...  but ya better not call me one!!
Lo  

Hey Lo -
How long have you been taking your Busa to the track?

 

[LoBusa]

Only did it twice before I custom painted. Now that Dex is so pretty, I really don't want to take him to the track anymore. I am looking for a bike just for the track. I learned so much about riding technique (countersteering) and my bikes abilities/limitations that it improved my riding skill by 100%. I ride twisites at least once a week. There is a sweet road between my job and home that I practice on when I ride into work. But nothing beats the track. No cars, no gravel, no POLICE, no dogs, no deer, no squirrels, etc.... And the track I went to (Thunderhill) the instructors were wonderful. I got semi-private lessons just cuz the guy was diggin' the "chick" on the Busa...

Damn, after all that did I answer your question?? Hope so..

Lo

 

[VaBusa]

You did answer it! Perfectly...

I'd love to take a course one weekend once I get my Busa...just to learn what you've described...plus, I love the idea of no cars, gravel, animals, cops, etc! Less worry...more time to concentrate on honing skills...

And Dexter is looking great, but I suspect his testosterone laden ego wouldn't appreciate being called "pretty"!

 

[BulletTrain]

Thanks, Lo. I'm going to find me a nice, safe place to do some practice and I'm gonna try a lot of this stuff. I'm sure I'll find something that works well for me. Thanks for takin' the time to help a rookie out.

 

[VaBusa]

Hey Chris...
This is just little ole me, blondie...so read in it what you will...the more I thought about counter-steering, the more I couldn't do it...

Once I was completely comfy with cornering, I started playing with pushing the handlebar a bit in a turn, and could feel it...it'll come to you, but it's really easier to not think about it too much...

That's my $.02 worth...and that's not much I know!

 

[BulletTrain]

Yeah, I ain't gonna try to force it, I'm just gonna try to be aware of the input I'm givin' her and try some minimal input to see what happens. I'm not going to focus on it, just try to understand it. Thanks for the $.02 though.

 

[JonnyZ]

 
Lo-Busa mentions body steering as a means of quickly transitioning into mutiple turn combinations in this case a chicane.  The truth is ....... this is countersteering as well in that instead of bar input to move the COG of the bike out from under the rider the rider moves his/her centeroff of the bike causing lean and subsequently countersteering and turning.  
When riding it is very easy to become fixated only on the road.  As the perceived difficulty of the path of travel increases,  there is a tendency for the rider to stiffen up.....  breathing becomes erratic or non existant  and feel from the bike as well as input into the bars is deadened or lost.  Basically, it's the same phenomonen as target fixation.........Once your locked up,  you have to consciencely "unlock " yourself and you really don't have this time when your moving through a turn at a "brisk" pace.

Quickly transitioning from one side of the bike to the other will speed up the transition between rapid directional changes without the need excessive bar input (countersteering).  Stay on the feet using the inside peg as the focus of weight and don't forget to use the opposite leg on the tank to pull and stabilize the frame.  You should be like a jockey with little weight on the seat itself.  This lowers the COG  of the bike and provides better stability. "Sit" back down on the seat once your out of the turn.


By moving around on the bike the rider forces the body to stay relaxed or loose in the saddle.  The arms are relaxed and the grip contant and controlled.  Just as a martial artists maintains all his power in his "hara" or hips/waist The rider should feel that his control comes from this area.  Breathing should be smooth and fluid with eyes focused deep through the turn.  Feel the bike under you and what the bike is doing........  Now, you'll start to understand what road /tire feel is..........you'll actually feel what the bike is doing and start to understand what feedback is being given from the bike.
Soon,  you will know when your pushing a bit too hard without loseing the front or the back
A lot of guys will mention front and rear slides through turns and this is the point at which you'll really know the bike but this takes LOTS of practice on the road as well as a fair amount of balls.....no offence ladies

The track is where you'll want to explore these limits and better to do it with a disposable bike......


For now just practice..........  off the center line of seat when initiating the turn.  Relax and keep the weight on the feet.............BREATH DAMMIT!

You'll say "jeez I could have gone WAY faster in that turn" next time turn the heat up a bit

Have fun.............and God knows..............it's fun

Go out and ride.........  

 

[CorrodedAlien]

What Sir Jz is saying is also discussed in the thread, Flicking the Busa...

 

[Buffo Busa]

Yeah, I ain't gonna try to force it, I'm just gonna try to be aware of the input I'm givin' her and try some minimal input to see what happens.

Just make sure that you are going fast enough or it won't work properly. You need to be going at least 30 to 40 miles an hour to make it work properly I think.

The effects of counter steering basicallu happen because of momentum> if there is not enough momentum you won't feel the effects of your steering movement. Incidently, a few months ago I tried counter steering on my daughters pushbike> it just didn't seem to work.

 

[CorrodedAlien]

I sometimes practice by swerving around the manhole covers and other utility stuff in the road around town.

 

[SierraFlyer]

Buffo Busa, you will definately feel it on mountain freeways at 100+. At those speeds the gyro forces in the wheel try to stand the bike straight up. counter steer fights it hard.

I agree with Lo, body steering is preferred to counter steer. I had to unlearn counter steer. The reason is if you apply counter forces to bars, it causes the bike to do something it is trying to resist. In steady state riding the bike is stable and wants to stay right side up. Most of it is due to gyroscopic forces of the wheels. Anything that causes the bike to deviate from this state is automatically "fixed" by the natural stability of the steering geometry when you relax the counter steering inputs. Until then its fighting your inputs. BUT, if you can use your weight to change the CG of the bike and rider together, the bike is not fighting anymore and will lean to accomodate the CG change. The way to feel this is to coast down a long steep hill in 6th gear with your hands in your pockets and steer with your body. The faster you go the harder it is to get the bike to turn in. Very quickly you develop methods to get it to turn (with out hands) and it shows how the bike is really balanced. Your Busa will be more stable in turns if it is balanced and not fighting your input. Doesn't it make sense that counter steer is cross-controlling the bike and it will fight you?

I still use counter steer but not as much as I used to. My turns are smoother and - as a result - faster. When really leaned over the contact patch on the front tire is working hard. Cranking on the bars can break it loose if over agressive. So now I use my seat position and weight to start the turn, counter steer to lay the bike over quicker, and then finish it off with peg weighting while releasing most of the counter steer. Since the bike is where it wants to be with the CGs all balanced in a lean it doesn't fight back and the forces on the suspension are smooth and balanced. Then if I need to change lines in mid turn there is some margin left to use counter steer and change lines. It is very rare now that I have an "oh SH^T!" moment in the middle of a turn.

Try the hands free method on your nearest hill ....it is a eye opener. I do it every day leaving the house and