Counter steering vs. Trail braking

[FloydV]

I read this in a Delta Sky magazine over the holidays. They talk about the Freddie Spencer High Performance Riding School. According to the article he is a "legend," and he has tutored pros like Nicky Hayden.

Here I will start to quote the article, putting in only the stuff that seems relevant:

...Most beginning courses teach a technique called counter steering. In order to turn right for instance, the rider pushes forward slightly on the right handle bar, which causes the bike to lean to the right and turn in that direction. This approach is effective, and most riders have used it as long as they have been riding. The downside of the technique, literally, is that the front wheel is pointing slightly away from the direction of the turn. If the rider accelerates too abruptly or tries to brake too quickly, the wheel can lose grip (what riders call "washing out") and cause a fall.

Spencer proposes a radical change in thinking: "I don't even want to hear the term 'counter steering." Instead he makes the case for turning a motorcycle using only body position and a braking technique called "trail braking," a continual but diminishing pressure on the front brake well into the turn.

Quoting again:

...During this exercise, I discover that as I move my head a couple of inches lower, the radius of the turns tightens so much that I overrun the apexes. I am actually turning the bike with my head, with almost no pressure at all on the handlebars.

So what is this trail braking? Should I try and find out, and dump counter steering?

I'll post the same topic on SH.org, since I'm really curious, and the article doesn't give much detail.

 

[GMbusa]

I use throttle steering all the time while turning. You slow in a turn and you curve tightens, applying the gas does the opposite.

 

[heavyjeffd]

Freddie Spencer is indeed a legend, no supposedly about it.

I still don't think anyone ever matched his record of winning the 250cc and 500cc GP titles in the same year like he did.

I'd love to go to his school.

 

[kennym4]

I can't remember where I read something on the same topic. (Sport Rider I think ) Well it took place at a Racing school, and the teacher went around the track with the students on the back, and was showing them how much of a difference trailbraking made. He went around the track steering with only one hand, and trailbraking. I wish I could see what they were talking about !!

Everytime this topic comes up (not only here) you'll get different anwers of what "trailbraking" is. Some say it's using only the rear brake, some said it was using the front brake into the appex, and as you're letting of the brake you're getting on the gas, letting off the brake slower than you apply them ?

Personaly I HAVE NO IDEA what the TRUE meaning, or method is !

I DO KNOW that almost EVERYBODY told me this is NOT something you want to be trying to learn on the street !!!!!

O.K. CharlesBusa, BA, Professor, What is it ?

 

[kml]

http://rapidshare.com/files/39364400/Sport.Riding.Techniques.pdf

page 55,56&57

cheers
ken

 

[Wag]

I'm no expert but I agree with Kenny: not something to be attempting to learn on the street.

You'd have to be going pretty damn fast to have a problem with counter steering BUT, if you supplement counter steering with proper body position, you will likely find that you don't have to counter steer so much anyway. Over time and with practice, less and less counter steering will be required.

There's a lot more to it than just learning "trail braking."

--Wag--

 

[MPH 200]

You have used counter steering ever since you learned to ride a bicycle, you just didn't realize it. Try going straight on your bike & suddenly push forward on one handlebar, then bike will immediately steer the opposite direction. When I race I set up for my turns, drop in & use counter steering to adjust my lines or lean angle if necessary. I do trail brake when racing, but only using the rear & ever so carefully so the suspension is not upset while leaned over.

 

[twotonevert]

Where is Busasweety? Ben could explain this very well. Trail braking should only be used by highly(highly) exp riders. The bike will naturaly turn with counter steering. You dont have to force the bike to turn. The bike will usually out perform the rider in terms of limits anyway, with that said, choose your line, adjust your speed and roll around the turn. Dont get me wrong, I am not saying Mr. Spencer is out of line, only that his technique is not for beginners.

 

[PR111]

I agree with Wag - they are not mutually exclusive. But I don't agree with people who say you can't trail brake on the street, you just need to know what you're doing. And I'm pretty sure most writers who submit work to airline magazines are not going to be able to include all the technical nuances of what Freddie said to him.

PR

 

[insane]

I think that braking into a turn causes the bike to tilt forward, reduces the rake and increases the responsiveness of the steering... to the handlebar inputs (counter-steering!)

I remember reading somewhere about Keith Code (a strong counter-steering advocate) building a bike with an additional set of handlebars rigidly attached to the tank. When trying to turn using all means other than counter-steering (with hands on the fixed handlebar), it was almost impossible to do it strongly enough, starting only a wide arc. I believe that bike was called the "no nonsense bike".

In Spain, some riders claim the bike is turned by a "hip strike" ("golpe de cadera", sounds quite sexy). I have only recently discovered that in order to maintain proper upper body position when turning (using both countersteering and weight shifting), you need to use the hip muscles, hence the "hip strike" name.

Anyway, I prefer to get all my downshifting and braking done before turning (no trail-braking). Too much "twist of the grip" and "Sport Rider" reading, I suppose...

 

[kennym4]

Where is Busasweety? Ben could explain this very well. Trail braking should only be used by highly(highly) exp riders. The bike will naturaly turn with counter steering. You dont have to force the bike to turn. The bike will usually out perform the rider in terms of limits anyway, with that said, choose your line, adjust your speed and roll around the turn. Dont get me wrong, I am not saying Mr. Spencer is out of line, only that his technique is not for beginners.

YEAH, and they BOTH could demonstrate it as well, I'm sure !!! VERY skilled riders !!

 

[Wag]

There are a lot of ways to steer the bike. The point of steering is that you are actually unsettling the bike from it's normal "desire" to go in a straight line. Left to itself, that's exactly what it does: Straight lines. So, steering is a disruption of that line.

Counter-steering is the most provocative way to get the line disrupted. You can, however, simply turn your head and it will unsettle the bike. Just not enough to steer the bike much. You can press on your footpeg and turn the bike. Shift your weight from one butt cheek to the other. Slide across the seat and put your weight on the gas tank with your outside knee. Press the same-side elbow against the tank as well.

If you feel the bike falling to the inside of the turn, you've overbalanced the bike too far into the turn. Correcting the turn with some added throttle can save the turn but the fact remains, you've overbalanced the bike for the speed you're travelling. Need to do better next time.

I trail brake on the streets quite frequently but for the track, it didn't work so well for me. Just not enough training, I'm sure. Still I did a helluva lot better without adding the complexity of trailbraking to the mix.

Eh.

Everyone will have a slightly different ability or need for trailbraking than another. I have, however, deliberately used the front brakes in order to get through a sudden s-turn. Just before halfway through, you can grab a half a fistful of front brake which will stand the bike up and toss it into the next turn as you release it again. Tricky. Not for the beginner. Just something I've done a few times.

--Wag--

 

[FloydV]

There are a lot of ways to steer the bike. The point of steering is that you are actually unsettling the bike from it's normal "desire" to go in a straight line. Left to itself, that's exactly what it does: Straight lines. So, steering is a disruption of that line.

Counter-steering is the most provocative way to get the line disrupted. You can, however, simply turn your head and it will unsettle the bike. Just not enough to steer the bike much. You can press on your footpeg and turn the bike. Shift your weight from one butt cheek to the other. Slide across the seat and put your weight on the gas tank with your outside knee. Press the same-side elbow against the tank as well.

If you feel the bike falling to the inside of the turn, you've overbalanced the bike too far into the turn. Correcting the turn with some added throttle can save the turn but the fact remains, you've overbalanced the bike for the speed you're travelling. Need to do better next time.

I trail brake on the streets quite frequently but for the track, it didn't work so well for me. Just not enough training, I'm sure. Still I did a helluva lot better without adding the complexity of trailbraking to the mix.

Eh.

Everyone will have a slightly different ability or need for trailbraking than another. I have, however, deliberately used the front brakes in order to get through a sudden s-turn. Just before halfway through, you can grab a half a fistful of front brake which will stand the bike up and toss it into the next turn as you release it again. Tricky. Not for the beginner. Just something I've done a few times.

--Wag--

Explain a little more about what squeezing the front brake does to help you through a turn. Are you dumping some speed, or is it somehow helping you lean the bike?

I am just not sure what the article was talking about. You can lean your body over, and the bike will follow without moving the handlebars, it just won't respond as aggressively. You can hang off and get more lean. What fading off the front brake until the middle of a turn does is unclear to me.

I do follow that counter-steering will have the wheel pointed slightly in the wrong direction, and that under some unclear circumstance, having the wheel not in line might cause problems. I'm not sure what would cause the mis-aligned wheel to do something bad.

You are right about moving your head or body slightly causing the bike to turn. The first time I wanted to see how fast 10.5K was in first, I actually looked down at the speedometer (I usually only keep the tach in my peripheral vision). When I glanced back up, I had drifted into the oncoming lane. I had moved my head and hands without realizing.

 

[Wag]

I only use the front brake in an S-turn. ESS-turn. Chicaner. Bike eating monster!

Just before the middle of the turn (just before the end of the first turn, actually), grabbing some front brake will help stand it up and ready you for turning it into the next turn going the other way. Problem is, you lose a lot of speed and if you overdo it, you're toast! Not for the faint of heart, not for the egoistical and not for the beginner, to be sure!

--Wag--

 

[Mr Bogus]

trail braking = last resort before taking the bike around the turn the long way from coming in too fast....(oops to wide) certainly an experts tool and not for the street in most cases

I think the proper definition is something to the effect of "any braking that occurs after turn in to the apex of a corner" Me... I try to have any braking done before getting it leaned over...

 

[DaCol.]

I'am not sure about the artical refering to counter steering AND trail braking as doing the same thing (which is the way I read it). Because they aren't the same or do the same thing at all. Now, body lean, head position (as in LOOK  

where you want to go) and downward leg pressure is a turning technique (which I highly reccommend you learn). But trail braking is a Technique by which you use to max. your corner entry, apex and exit speeds while turning, NOT TURNING the bike.  

 

[JINKSTER]

i don't get it....first off..."trail braking" and "c-steering"?..."VS"?

wtf?...they're just two terms/phrases that identifies what comes natural to most riders over time & miles...i understand whats being said but it not a choice of one or another...just two components of the many components that can make up a riders individual technic....as follows...

"Trail Braking": is the fine art of being able to stay on your brakes through the first 1/2 of the curve...from the corner entrance too the apex...and ideally?...it's right at the apex that the rider should be transitioning off the brakes and rolling on the throttle for a hard, fast, driving corner exit...and if you're using throttle to steer your way through a curve under power?...you've already shed to much speed..and had to compenstate by disrupting the bikes chassis by powering through an entrance?...no....wrong...and if you do?...you'll get to see a lot of skilled folks fly right by you...as they "Late Braked" (yet another term applied to the same theory) and carried more speed deeper into and through the curve than you did...and here's the clincher...they passed you with their brakes on!

For me?...the key word is "SMOOTH"...always be smooth with all your control inputs...as not only does abrupt inputs disprupt the bikes chassis and compromise traction?...but it also plays heck with your mind as it constantly attempts to compensate for the abrupt destabilizing transitions to re-calculate re-process as you constantly modify your line with "mid-turn-corrections"...which tends to be?...well?...NOT so.."smooth".

If i'm running hard and fast?...it's because i'm doing everything smooth and graceful...perfoming "The Asphault Ballet"...carrying as much speed as i dare deep into the curve...late turning (initiated with a nudge of c-steering) then?...smoothly braking all the way down to the apex (with a touch of toe on the rear brake to further settle the chassis...which btw "is" trail-braking)....followed with a diliberate (yet very smooth) roll-on of the throttle..and in the inbetween apex area there?..i let the bars "have-their-head" (so to speak) with zero c-steering...which is where the c-steering is fighting where the profile of the tire WANTS to be...and i let it be there...using just body position and lean..and i do it all...shoulder dipped and pointing...head level....breath (don't wanna forget that...and a lot of people do hold their breath through a curve without even knowing it)..and once i do reach the apex?...it's party time at throttlesville...which is where i do use the throttle to stand the bike back up...no c-steering there.

and here's a pic that sorta quantifies what i'm saying...take notice of the lean angle...the turn...and that my brake-light is indeed..."on"...with the bike leaned over...

Disclaimer: Such folly should not be engaged in on public roadways.

L8R, Bill.

 

[Big Red]

I use what RIDE MAGAZINE calls active counter steering. As you enter the arc of a turn' you push the bar sligtly in the opposite direction of the curve. This sets up your lean angle for the turn. Works great for my riding style.

 

[FloydV]

OK then...

If I shortened what you are saying, I would repeat what I have told other people. If I had to stop and think about what I was doing while riding (through a curve in this instance), then I would probably fall. It is all instinctive. Yeah, you can learn some helpful maneuvers, but you end up doing what works for you without doing a lot of thinking.

Someone once asked me why would anyone want to go through some twisties at 130. I said "Because, your brain is totally silent, your mind is focused on the task, and there is peace and excitement at the same time." I don't think they got it, but you guys probably do.

 

[gtrpimp76]

Trail braking: basically applying the front brakes deeper and later than mere mortals all the way to the apex of the corner. But here's the catch: as you're approaching the apex and lean angle is increasing, you HAVE TO START LETTING OFF THE BRAKES GRADUALLY. Gradually is the key because letting off too fast will upset the chassis and disrupt any available traction. Also, too much braking will decrease your front tire's ability to have traction and brake under those conditions, causing the front end to TUCK: or the handlebars to turn completely flush to the apex and lowsiding. Obviously, a new tire is better for trailbraking vs an older, worn tire with a lot of laps completed.

Street riders should NEVER practice this on the road (unless your name is Lamb

). It's mainly a technique used by trackday and roadracers to keep corner speeds high and getting through the corners as fast as possible. I use this technique 100% of the time at the track. I can shave off tenths of a second to 1 sec the better I apply this technique.

Now...Trail braking is also used with "backing it in" where the rider applies heavy braking combined with engine braking/slipping the clutch for rear wheel modulation. You'll notice the rear end "steps out" towards the outside of the corner. This style helps to square off the corners better, allowing quicker throttle application. I'm currently working on this technique but can only use it in certain turns (i.e. Turns 1 and 3 at Willow Springs Big track) where it's feasible. This technique can actually make or break your lap times.