Buy gen3 or gen2?

Hayabusa Wannabe said:
Doing this is inherently unstable
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Unstable it is. It is also proof that leaning the bike will turn its front wheel.
The movement of the Japanese officer is not visible. In my case, when I was applying that technique with my versys650 (very tough to lean up to full-lock) I also had to slightly lift the external leg (thigh) in order to push the tank towards the rotation's centre and let my body weight press down the left side of the seat.
I also can accurately monitor and control what my hands are doing as I play classical piano on a virtuosity level (I did not want to brag but this is the way it is after decades of practice forcing one to fine-tune the entire body in order to succeed acrobatic passages as they happen in very difficult pieces). So I know that my hands follow the handlebar, at least under no-panic circumstances.
 
Bumblebee said:
All one has to do is watch either a superbike race or MotoGP race to see how the rider is interacting with the bike..

You can actually see the rider in the picture counter steering....

.....and these riders are at the top of the heap....

View attachment 1668380
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No, one must weigh all factors:
The GP racers are what they are, speed riders on closed tracks performing according to the specific sport discipline. There is no reason that their techniques must be used under normal circumstances on public roads. I simply explained that I (like many others) do employ my body for cornering and shown tangible proofs that this is possible.
I certainly know what man nowadays is taught but there is never certainty that this is always correct.
[As an example, from time to time I glance over recent physics' discoveries and achievements to confirm that since my university days (only 43 years before!) things are significantly different].

The race riders must lean quickly the bike to save time while in the corner. Counter-steering is the only solution.
Counter-steering is also needed in corners with limited visibility.
If one instead is casually descending a mountain road with plenty of visibility, then the body solution is equally applicable.
Finally, with the Japanese technique I feel better 'connected' with the bike as opposed with the passive-one (counter-steering).

You may check that guy too (
,
,
), he's an instructor and gymkhana competitor.
 
Claude J. Greengrass said:
No, one must weigh all factors:
The GP racers are what they are, speed riders on closed tracks performing according to the specific sport discipline. There is no reason that their techniques must be used under normal circumstances on public roads. I simply explained that I (like many others) do employ my body for cornering and shown tangible proofs that this is possible.
I certainly know what man nowadays is taught but there is never certainty that this is always correct.
[As an example, from time to time I glance over recent physics' discoveries and achievements to confirm that since my university days (only 43 years before!) things are significantly different].

The race riders must lean quickly the bike to save time while in the corner. Counter-steering is the only solution.
Counter-steering is also needed in corners with limited visibility.
If one instead is casually descending a mountain road with plenty of visibility, then the body solution is equally applicable.
Finally, with the Japanese technique I feel better 'connected' with the bike as opposed with the passive-one (counter-steering).

You may check that guy too (
,
,
), he's an instructor and gymkhana competitor.
Click to expand...
We all have to ride how we ride and if it works for us.....that is the important message.

What I learned on the race track follows me to the street and has served me well over the years....I don't go hard on the street like I did on the track.

We are a long way from which bike the OP is looking at either a Gen 2 or 3 however, but good conversations are the norm on this forum...
 
Bumblebee said:
We all have to ride how we ride and if it works for us.....that is the important message.

What I learned on the race track follows me to the street and has served me well over the years....I don't go hard on the street like I did on the track.

We are a long way from which bike the OP is looking at either a Gen 2 or 3 however, but good conversations are the norm on this forum..
Click to expand...
I bought the 2023 model but I wait the mechanic to mount T-Rex protections and connect my Garmin GPS. I won't ride it before (I am a coward!)
 

End of story​

I received it a couple days ago. The bike is DEVINE!
Its torque is so high that I can go 6th gear steady, city speed, and believing it's an automatic.
If a retarded creature attempts to tailgate me, a bit of throttle will do the trick anywhere, still 6th gear!
Again, in the city (5O km/h), (low) consumption is SURREAL, if riding wise of course (no stupid accelerations).
Highway too (90, 100, 120 km/h).
Full-lock comes smoothly and immediately at the 1st gear idle speed, provided leaning firmly and consistently the bike (like many others, I succeed easily left, right is tough, need practice...)
Speed... I could not notice until glancing at the instrument: 150 km/h ~4,500 RPM or something.
Aerodynamics won't let you feel the speed, perhaps until 200 km/h, but I am not eager to test it, anyway not in public roads.
Hayabusa 2023 is a correct definition for a dream bike, this is what I can say now.
 
I bought my Gen III not because of HP but because of torque, usable torque low in the RPM range where I can use it is way more important to me than HP and top end speed. I'm closing in on 63 in a few months and riding anywhere close to 180 mph or even 130 does not appeal to me anymore but I do enjoy going from 0-80 as fast as I can. Plus the styling of the Gen III appeals to me much more than either of the previous generation Hayabusa's styling.
 
Bumblebee said:
All one has to do is watch either a superbike race or MotoGP race to see how the rider is interacting with the bike..

You can actually see the rider in the picture counter steering....
Click to expand...
Well, you can't actually see counter steering from a still. I do think there's a lot of confusion over the issue, but it's my impression that most fast riders have not experienced the revelation of a very light touch on the bars. What I see in that picture is a front tire choosing its own angle which is kicked much farther towards the outside of the curve than it would be and someone who is actively steering (the default for most sport riders). The low speed Gymkhana videos phrase it as 'loose hands, loose fingers, handlebar turns free.' It's not immediately easy holding on to the grips and levers firmly enough to use them but lightly enough that you're not damping the Triple T pivot.

I'm converting to this police / Japanese training technique. They can flow in the parking lot way better than I can, and I want to get better at it. I've got the soft touch in the twisties, but I don't have the body movements in the parking lot nor the throttle control for the locked slow-mo turns. The training is work. I'm actually a little frustrated I'm not picking it up faster.
 
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dcnblues said:
Well, you can't actually see counter steering from a still. I do think there's a lot of confusion over the issue, but it's my impression that most fast riders have not experienced the revelation of a very light touch on the bars. What I see in that picture is a front tire choosing its own angle which is kicked much farther towards the outside of the curve than it would be and someone who is actively steering (the default for most sport riders). The low speed Gymkhana videos phrase it as 'loose hands, loose fingers, handlebar turns free.'

I'm converting to this police / Japanese training technique. They can flow in the parking lot way better than I can, and I want to get better at it. I've got the soft touch in the twisties, but I don't have the body movements in the parking lot nor the throttle control for the locked slow-mo turns. The training is work. I'm actually a little frustrated I'm not picking it up faster.
Click to expand...
You can't? Interesting...I can see it very clearly and that is only one picture I've chosen amongst several I could have....

The fastest riders on the planet use counter steering and body positioning-MotoGP, TT, WSBK......

I seldom slalom around parking lots so that riding technique is lost to me.

I'm pretty rusty now when it comes to technique as it's been a while since I've raced on the track.....I do find it comes back quickly once the pace picks up though...
 
Here's a good angle that clearly shows counter steering...

Counter steer.jpg


Next.jpg
 
Claude J. Greengrass said:
...Finally, with the Japanese technique I feel better 'connected' with the bike as opposed with the passive-one (counter-steering)....
Click to expand...
Thank you for your posts, I'm trying to learn more about this and they are quite useful. I couldn't agree more about what a great ride the Gen 3 is. (If you have the budget, consider carbon wheels.)

I'm not totally clear whether the Japanese style is the same or is in conflict with the American police training methods. What do you think?
 
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Bumblebee said:
Here's a good angle that clearly shows counter steering...

View attachment 1680010

View attachment 1680011
Click to expand...
But that's not showing steering at all, he is letting the tire choose its own angle there. I agree that if he is making any steering adjustments they are minute counter steers, but he is letting his fork pivot move freely in the middle of the curve like those pics. I honestly think a majority of riders have never felt the sensation. It's kind of a revelation the first time you do...

If you could walk up to that frozen moment and grab his forearm, you could slide it forward and back quite easily (as he wouldn't have any weight or pressure on them). And the tire would pivot quite easily, yet it still has a larger contact patch than it would if the guy was strong gripping the bars and pointing the tire into the turn.
 
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dcnblues said:
But that's not showing steering at all, he is letting the tire choose its own angle there. I agree that if he is making any steering adjustments they are minute counter steers, but he is letting his fork pivot move freely in the middle of the curve like those pics. I honestly think a majority of riders have never felt the sensation. It's kind of a revelation the first time you do...

If you could walk up to that frozen moment and grab his forearm, you could slide it forward and back quite easily (as he wouldn't have any weight or pressure on them). And the tire would pivot quite easily, yet it still has a larger contact patch than it would if the guy was strong gripping the bars and pointing the tire into the turn.
Click to expand...
You and I see two entirely different pictures...

What is your riding background if I might ask?
 
dcnblues said:
Thank you for your posts, I'm trying to learn more about this and they are quite useful. I couldn't agree more about what a great ride the Gen 3 is. (If you have the budget, consider carbon wheels.)

I'm not totally clear whether the Japanese style is the same or is in conflict with the American police training methods. What do you think?
Click to expand...
 
@dcnblues
Judging from what I see in youtube I speculate that motorbike policemen in US do traditionally employ the clutch. They anyway ride large Harleys that in turn might dictate that technique.

From what I see and do, I understand that once one gets familiar with the physics (and the gyroscopic phenomenon) a variety of instruments is becoming available: first and most, forgetting the clutch and employing the rear-brake to achieve full-lock but prevent falling over; second, using the front break before cornering to reduce the wheelbase; third, do a counter-steering to lean faster (Japanese policemen are able to do it upon starting).

Today I observed that while circling I can counter-steer for a millimeter just to force the bike to lean more (bit of a thrill though).

I must admit that despite sufficient protections I cannot accept falling over, and I have no self-confidence in controlling the speed with the rear brake, so what I do? Intense fitness workouts with much abs, as to employ strong muscles, since the hayabusa, in 1000 rpm idle 1st gear is way too strong to accept full-lock. I also try to maximize torque by vertically extending my upper body while leaning, but there is a catch: being the shoulders away from the handlebars forces one elbow straight and the automatic rotation of the handlebar stops -> either falling over or not achieving the full-lock. This is why motogymkhana riders never use low handlebars.

Now, I can achieve a left u-turn of 6,50 m, but only under ideal conditions.

I keep training though, doing 100 u-turns every day and I humbly begin touching the rear brake hoping to overcome that fear.
Strangely enough I feel safer when cornering at 100 km/h head close to the ground, than when trying to exit my comfort zone at only 12 km/h! Perhaps these low speed drills are "dangerous" because they reveal my hidden ghosts, who knows :D

In my little experience with the immensely strong hayabusa, very tight corners do need a low gear, 2nd or 1st: I keep my entire concentration to the leaning as my only control is the throttle; if I need slowing down I close the throttle and rely on the engine; if the bike is leaning too much (danger!) then I open the throttle and let it straighten itself, while enjoying a higher angular speed. In fact, from fear of speed, I keep doing tight corners, too tight perhaps for my own safety (reduced visibility etc)
Sorry for blabbing!
 
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dcnblues said:
I'm just guessing, but do you actually think he is pushing the inner bar to get the tire to point out of the curve like that? Because ask any racer, he's not.
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Nope,

He's gently pulling the opposite bar to the direction of the lean....the bike isn't doing that on it's own.

Learned that in two racing schools....and applied it for a couple years on the track...
 
I loved my gen 2 but was getting impatient for a next gen. Will they ever even make a gen 3? So based on faith for Suzuki, I pre-ordered it as soon as I could but then got scared.... what if it's not better? My opinion now is I'm glad I did it! I love them both but the gen 3 is so much nicer, in my opinion. I don't mean to throw a loved one in the gutter, but the gen 2 seems so long in the tooth and dated now. And I can assure you, the traction control is worth bragging about. It's amazing how quick it reacts when I start slipping on the parking lots loose gravel. Now if all I cared about was a few extra horsepower, my opinion still wouldn't change. My God, how much more power does one need? I can't believe any of them are even legal to own!
 
Wraiths Empire said:
I loved my gen 2 but was getting impatient for a next gen. Will they ever even make a gen 3? So based on faith for Suzuki, I pre-ordered it as soon as I could but then got scared.... what if it's not better? My opinion now is I'm glad I did it! I love them both but the gen 3 is so much nicer, in my opinion. I don't mean to throw a loved one in the gutter, but the gen 2 seems so long in the tooth and dated now. And I can assure you, the traction control is worth bragging about. It's amazing how quick it reacts when I start slipping on the parking lots loose gravel. Now if all I cared about was a few extra horsepower, my opinion still wouldn't change. My God, how much more power does one need? I can't believe any of them are even legal to own!
Click to expand...
Does your exhaust pop loud when traction control kicks in?
 
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