Another pitbull story, happened yesterday...




PacerX

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Yesterday, we're out giving our 90 lbs., neutered, German Shepard a bath in the hose (he likes it better that way since the tub scares him - go figure).

Just as we finish, one of the pitbulls from the neighbor two doors down comes into our yard.

Loki (our dog) broke free from my wife immediatly and gave a few warning barks. I then stepped in between them, grabbing Loki's collar. I looked straight at the pitbull and told it to "go away" firmly.

The pitbull then growled/barked at me...

That's all it took.

Loki went straight at him, no fear, no pause, no warning, no nothing. I didn't even have time to tell him to stop before he broke away. The fight went very quickly... Loki literally bowled the smaller pitbull over (it was maybe a 50-60 lbs. dog), clamping down on the right rear leg near the hip (German Shepards are herding dogs, and trained ones will almost always go for a leg on a human if the arm is obstructed or has a weapon, with other dogs they'll go after the rear legs if the chance presents itself).

The pit yelps when Loki grabs on and then Loki literally starts dragging him while doing the head shake. If it wasn't so violent it would almost be funny... Loki is dragging this dog around like a rag doll. Finally I got close enough to separate them, grabbed Loki by the collar and wrenched him off the pit, moving away to separate them.

The pit got back to his feet as I'm holding Loki, and then barks and threatens again. Loki breaks free a second time and it's on again... Same deal, circle fast, charge, knock the smaller dog off of it's feet while grabbing the rear leg. Once again, the pit is being dragged around my yard like a toy. I catch them again and pull Loki off for a second time. This time the pit wants no part of anymore of this and runs off.

The pit is bleeding from the rear leg. Loki doesn't have a scratch. I examined Loki carefully afterwards. The one chance he had to grab on to Loki was frustrated by the ruff around his neck and all the pit got was hair (there are a couple of thin spots up top, but no real damage). The pit limped off, obviously favoring it's right rear leg.

We've had no contact with the owner yet. I imagine she's going to be very upset when she finds out who hurt her dog, and don't honestly know what the law really says.

We were watching Loki carefully, giving him a bath. He only got loose from me through sheer strength and after the other dog threatened. The other dog was running around off the leash and had come into our yard unsupervised.

My kids are out of town right now. If they had been out alone, what could of happened? My thought is now that Loki goes out with them at all times. He's obedient and loyal, and obviously fiercely protective. How do I protect my kids from the other dog without being outside with them all the time? What would have happened to them?

A few things I am sure of:

The pit is a menace and puts those around it in danger.

Loki would have killed it if it went that far and if I wasn't outside it would have went that far.

My kids could never have stopped the fight, nor could my wife have. It took everything I had to separate them.



If Loki wasn't neutered, I'm guessing the outcome would have been even worse since he would be even more aggressive.


Here's a picture of Loki:

Jul09005.jpg




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gsteve

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Im glad it worked out well for you. I restrained myself on te oter post ... but wtf... I am a dog lover and dont have probs with any otther breed. But I dont trust pits. I know there is ppl in here who have em and figure they are harmless. That maybe true in thier case. But 99% of the pits i see are dragging some low life behind them. Some POS who figures seeing he is a scum bag ,if he has a scarey dog that means hes a scarey guy. Most dogs , you can tell what their intentions are. Pits seem to give very lil warning. I have a park behind our house where most of the dogs get let out to play with ea other freely. There is 1 guy who walks a pit.. granted on a leash. When we see him coming we call all the dogs back in the yards , some , mine included woud run up to it expecting to see if it wants to play. The owners [ fat bald knob] just soaks this up. Never offers to say if it cool if his dog plays or F.All , Just walks thru thinkin to himself what a stud he is cuz everyone is afraid of his mutt. sj
 

Lazerblade

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I am so happy this all worked out. Have to admit when I read your subject line, I panic'd because I thought that maybe your bike had fallen off it's Pitbull stand. I just got one and it would have bummed me out.

Great dog.

Paul
 

PacerX

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Im glad it worked out well for you.  I restrained myself on te oter post ... but wtf... I am a dog lover and dont have probs with any otther breed.  But I dont trust pits.  I know there is ppl in here who have em and figure they are harmless.  That maybe true in thier case.  But 99% of the pits i see are dragging some low life behind them.  Some POS who figures seeing he is a scum bag ,if he has a scarey dog that means hes a scarey guy.  Most dogs , you can tell what their intentions are.  Pits seem to give very lil warning.  I have a park behind our house where most of the dogs get let out to play with ea other freely.  There is 1 guy who walks a pit.. granted on a leash.  When we see him coming we call all the dogs back in the yards , some , mine included woud run up to it expecting to see if it wants to play.  The owners [ fat bald knob] just soaks this up.  Never offers to say if it cool if his dog plays or F.All , Just walks thru thinkin to himself what a stud he is cuz everyone is afraid of his mutt.  sj
I guess much of what you listed is why I consider German Shepards the ultimate working/family breed if protection and trainability are you priorities.

Loki is an absolute peach around people. Friendly and calm, he's got a better chance of drooling someone to death than attacking anyone. The only issues we've ever had with him are his herding instincts and his tendency to chase, but he would NEVER hurt a person unless directly, actively and aggressively threatened. Furthermore, if he is chasing, he is called off easily and obediently. He isn't "people aggressive" in the least.

I find no redeeming values in a pitbull. None.

They are too erratic and are nowhere near as trainable or intelligent. A larger, calmer working breed offers all the protection (just ask the pit who tangled with Loki...) with a much superior innate controllability.

I have also heard that Golden Retrievers are terrific family animals. The only thing I wonder is whether I had chosen a Golden Retriever instead of a Shepard, would the outcome yesterday have been far worse for me, my wife or my dog?

I have heard it said that say the German Shepards are up there in the statistics for biting people, and don't know whether or not that's true, but I do know this:

The police use German Shepards pretty much exclusively in K9 units, as does the military. Those dogs might be the absolute pinnacle of the capabilities of any breed of dog...
 

BulletTrain

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But 99% of the pits i see are dragging some low life behind them. Some POS who figures seeing he is a scum bag ,if he has a scarey dog that means hes a scarey guy.
So, ummm, hate on low lifes, not pits. The poor dog has no control over the asshat that buys/steals 'em and trains 'em to be sneaky, cowardly bastids just like their low life owner...
rock.gif
I've had pits and they are NOT inherently sneaky, vicious, untrustworthy animals. Just like any other dog breed, they are as good, or as bad as their master teaches them to be. Blame the idiots who own them for their thuggish image value, not the poor misguided, untrained/improperly trained animal...
mad.gif
 

BulletTrain

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I am so happy this all worked out. Have to admit when I read your subject line, I panic'd because I thought that maybe your bike had fallen off it's Pitbull stand. I just got one and it would have bummed me out.

Great dog.

Paul
Mine almost did when I done the sprocket swap. I bumped the rear stand handle with my rollin' stool and knocked the right side spool off it's cradle. I caught the busa on my neck and shoulder and luckily was able to muscle it back up and get the stand back under it without it hittin' the floor... Be CAREFUL around the rear stand handle when you've got yer baby up on it!
wink.gif
 

thesnake

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I also have to disagree. I had a 60 pound bundle of joy and love that was a mean looking pit. The only problem I had with him was he licked any visitors into submission. I have had many many dogs over the years (current one is a choc. lab) and that ole bull was the smartest, most lovable, and faithful friend one could ever ask for.

Your sheppard got lucky. My bull had two run-ins. One with a nasty coon cat. He never seen a cat before and went to sniff it, then coon replied with a nasty claw across his nose. My bull quickly retreated and hid int he car. The second encounter was a lot like yours. My pit was outside playing fetch with my daughter. A rotweiller come into the yard, my daugher foolishly yelled, "get out" and took a step towards it before I had time to see what was going on. The rot growls and domino (my pit) immediately stood poised, growling loudly at the side of my daughter. The rot started growling and got aggressive. My dog walked up to it slowly... The rot attacked bowling my pit over and there was a flurry of action with the rot getting the best of my pit at the beginning. Suddenly my pit lurches on it it's neck, with a death curding growl. The rot ceases action and lies down on it's backhoping it ain't a dead rot. My dog doesn't let go (not biting, but a rock solid hold) until I go over and coax her to release. after a few long minutes. The pit released and the rot scampered away with a few scratches. The rot I would guess was around 100lbs. It never came into our yard again.

Domino was the greatest! I miss that bugger even if it did take up all my pillows at night. Don't judge a pit by stories as they usually generated by abusive owners. For that matter, one could raise a dob, sheppard, rot, etc, etc and turn em into a terrorizing flea monger.



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Revlis

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I dunno, I love dogs but I have only had one breed, come after me twice.  And this with plenty of exposure to Malinois working dogs, and growing up with Chows which are twitchy.  

I do not think the Pit's are Bad neccessarily but I do think they are wired wrong and CANNOT be trusted around wives, friends and sure as fug not kids.  I don't care, I hear how they are such "Great" pets but I don't buy it.  I know of several folks, close friends of the family that had to shoot both their Pits within a two year period.  One went after the pregnant wife, the other went after the two year old...  Both no provocation...  Both resulted in bloodied humans, Nope, a breed that just needs to be watched... Not To be trusted...  If you have to have an "Ego" Dog, buy yourself a Mastiff, or if you want a Boxer, buy a Boxer...  

Last Pooch encounter I had was a German shepard though...  I think the key is to never have a larger breed in an Apartment complex.  They just do NOT Fuggin understand the concept of what is and isn't their territory...  The Shepard and I finally worked it out at the barrel of a 12 Gauge...  Nope, didn't shoot her...  But to this day I will swear that the dog knew what that gun meant and what the outcome was going to be...  Kinda messes with my head even today...  I mean, She just couldn't figure out that my apartment was not her turf and the worthless assed owners were not responsible enough...  So she thinks she's protecting her home as a good dog should, I point the 12 at her as I leave my apartment one afternoon, she comes after me like allways then pulls up short as I rack the slide...  I swear the dog watched COPS on TV...  She stopped dead in her tracks and we never had another problem...  Very odd...



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thesnake

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Rev, perhaps I'm just blessed, but I don't buy the "wired" argument. If you wanted to argue that a pit is potentially dangerous solely because of his/her physical attributes and power, I would argee that they are very powerful and stop there.

However, I strongly feel personality is a function of the owner, environement, and treatment of the animal assuming the dog comes from a reputable breeder (not one who breeds selectively for agrression and/or fighting).

Here are a couple excepts from the CDC (center for disease control) regarding a lengthy study they did on the matter:

from:
"FATAL DOG ATTACKS"
The Stories Behind the Statistics
An Investigative Study into the Circumstances Surrounding Dog-Bite Related Human Fatalities from 1965 through the Present.


1. The CDC study documented which breeds of dogs caused the most human fatalities from 1979 through 1998. While the CDC did an admirable job of studying fatal dog attacks, they went to great lengths to point out that irresponsible owners were the cause of most of these incidents.

2. The result of sensationalizing individual incidents of severe or fatal dog attacks, included with the use of unexamined statistical "evidence" has created an unfortunate and inaccurate public and political perception as to the dangerousness and predictability of certain breeds of dogs, such as "Pit Bulls."

3. After reviewing over 431 cases of fatal dog attacks it is apparent there is no single factor that translates in a lethal encounter between a person and a dog(s). An attack is not prone towards a specific breed, but is always the culmination of past and present events that include: inherited and learned behaviors, genetics, breeding, socialization, function of the dog, physical condition and size of the dog, reproductive status of dog, popularity of breed, individual temperament, environmental stresses, owner responsibility, victim behavior, victim size and physical condition, timing and misfortune.

4.  Breeds of dogs with greater protection instincts or an elevated prey-drive are often unfairly viewed as "aggressive or dangerous". No breed of dog is inherently vicious, as all breeds of dogs were created and are maintained exclusively to serve and co-exist with humans. The problem exists not within the breed of dog, but rather within the owners that fail to control, supervise, maintain and properly train the breed of dog they choose to keep.


Now, I'm certainly not trying nor going to change your personal opinion, but I'm hoping to stem stereotypes and false labeling. I'm not asking, anyone to "buy", just look at facts as they pertain to science and statistics. I've been bitten twice by dogs, once by a Maltese and once by a beagle/lab mutt. Does it make these breeds dangerous? No.



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thesnake

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p.s. that's one heck of a story with you and the sheppard
smile.gif


It is important with any dog that they clearly understand who the fuggin boss is.
 

thesnake

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After giving it some thought, I'll concede this:

Having a Bull terrier is akin to being a busa owner. They are both tops in power and require an experienced owner. A busa is not inheritly any more dangerous per se than bike x, but with a combination of it's power and rider inexperience it can be deadly. The bull terrier, is also not inheritly dangerous. However, it does require an experienced dog owner as any other large powerful breed does, or else the results may be hazerdous to one's health. This does not take into account the saddistic whackos who buy em to fight, but just the average joe smoe owner.



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Rich

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But 99% of the pits i see are dragging some low life behind them.  Some POS who figures seeing he is a scum bag ,if he has a scarey dog that means hes a scarey guy.
So, ummm, hate on low lifes, not pits. The poor dog has no control over the asshat that buys/steals 'em and trains 'em to be sneaky, cowardly bastids just like their low life owner...
rock.gif
I've had pits and they are NOT inherently sneaky, vicious, untrustworthy animals. Just like any other dog breed, they are as good, or as bad as their master teaches them to be. Blame the idiots who own them for their thuggish image value, not the poor misguided, untrained/improperly trained animal...
mad.gif
I have to agree with the train. I have 3 pits and all three of them are little babies. The male is about 70lbs right now. and the 2 females are about 40lbs each. They look mean but if you come into the house the dogs run up to you and start licking and sniffing. The younest female still gets so excited when friends come over that she pees everywhere. It ONLY has to do with they way that they were brought up. If you take the same dogs that I have and put them in a totally different household/situation they may not be so nice. But you know what you can make a f'ing poodle mean. Any dog raised wrong can be a "menace".
 

Revlis

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Fair enough Snake...  I just know that the difference between a Pitbull and other breeds is that when it does short out...  It's frequently for more devastating than say a Beagle attack.   The bite strength, the tenacity, and the determination of the pitbull terrior is what makes it an especially hazardous animal.

Perception is everything you are right, but I will never EVER own or turn my back on another pitbull...  I firmly believe that they have a genetic disposition that makes them especially dangerous.

Statistics for what they are:  Illuminating...  Points out that the other "EGO" breed Rottweilers are also heavily over represented in fatal dog attacks.  It's genetic I think,  They were designed for a purpose, not to be pets...

From 1979 through 1996, dog attacks resulted in more than 300 human dog-bite related deaths in the United States. Most of the victims were children.

In 1997 and 1998, at least 27 people died as a result of dog bite attacks (18 in 1997, and 9 in 1998). Of these, 19 were young children between zero and 11 years of age, and 8 were older children and adults between 17 and 87 years of age.

Of the 27 people who died as a result of dog bite attacks in 1997 and 1998, 67 percent (18) involved unrestrained dogs on the owner's property; 19 percent (5) involved unrestrained dogs off the owner's property; 11 percent (3) involved restrained dogs on the owner's property; and 4 percent (1) involved a restrained dog off the owner's property.

60 percent of the fatal dog bite attacks by unrestrained dogs that occurred off the owner's property in 1997 and 1998 involved attacks by more than one dog.

Of the 27 people who died as a result of dog bite attacks during 1997 and 1998, 67 percent (18) involved an attack by one dog; 19 percent (5) involved an attack by two dogs; and 15 percent (4) involved an attack by 3 dogs.

17 states accounted for the 27 dog bite fatalities that occurred in 1997 and 1998. They were: California (4 deaths); Georgia and North Carolina (3 deaths each); Kansas, Texas, and Wisconsin (2 deaths each); and Alaska, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New York, South Dakota, and Tennessee (1 death each).

<span style='color:orangered'>Rottweilers and Pit Bulls were involved in 60 percent of the 27 dog bite fatalities that occurred in 1997 and 1998. Rottweilers were involved in 10 deaths, and Pit Bulls were involved in 6.

From 1979 through 1998, at least 25 breeds of dogs have been involved in 238 human dog bite related deaths. Pit Bulls and Rottweilers were involved in more than 50 percent of these deaths.</span>

It has been estimated that about 4.5 million people (nearly 2 percent of the American population) are bitten by dogs each year.

In 1994, of the estimated 4.7 million people who were bitten by dogs, 800,000 sought medical care. Of these, 332,000 sought treatment in emergency rooms, and 6,000 were hospitalized.

It has been estimated that nearly 334,000 dog bite injuries are treated in emergency departments each year.

Of those hospitalized for dog bite injuries in 1994, 55 percent were male.

The average hospital stay for a dog-bite injury has been estimated at 3.6 days.

In 1994, hospital charges for dog-bite victims was estimated at $62.5 million.

In 1994, emergency department charges for dog-bite victims was estimated at $102.4 million, and direct medical care charges incurred as a result of dog bites was estimated at $164.9 million.[/QUOTE]

There are stats like this all over the web, there are reasons insurance companies have certain dogs on "Blacklists" and it's not because they are buying into some media hype.  

It's spooky that of the thousands of breeds out there, that two breeds can account for over half of the fatal attacks... I'm not usually one to side with any sort of reactionary "The Sky is Falling" BS, but in this case and from my own experiance, I think I am with the "System" on this one...
 

thesnake

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Where is the source of your stats? They contradict the data in raw terms by a huge margin when compared to US Gov. stats.

Hey, I'm not telling anyone to turn they're back on any large dog. My point thuugh is that by classifing them as terrible pets and their owners are saddists is just as wrong as me saying I love humans, just not hispanics and blacks. (for examples sake). Terming them "EGO" pets is just as one sided.

I don't place too much creed in what insurance companies do or don't do.


nouf said.


Semper Fi terriers!

-snake

Duke, PCF, USMC


Its body is covered with black, coarse hair on top with a sharp white blotch on its chest.  He weighs 95 pounds and exudes confidence.  This animal is known throughout the base as Private First Class "Big Duke Six," 5th Force Reconnaissance Battalion's pit bull mascot.

Duke, respectfully named after John Wayne, is four years old and has been with the unit since May 1999.

"We believe he was a Japanese fighting dog before we picked him up at the [kennel]," said Gunnery Sgt. James B. Smith, training chief and caretaker for Duke.  "He was originally the platoon mascot for 1st platoon, Company A. He picks up his official orders as the battalion mascot this week."

The Duke's daily routine is almost equal to a reconnaissance Marine's schedule.

"He'll run physical training with us and go the whole three miles," said Smith.  "He'll even sit out in front of the office and wait for another platoon to run by, [and] chase some units down the road."

With all of the exposure to different Marines each day, Duke tries to mimic humans.

"He'll sit in chairs, thinking he's a person," said Smith.  "He even sleeps on a cot at night."

With Duke's new billet as battalion mascot, new things await him.

"We're building him a six-foot wide, seven-foot tall and eight-foot deep doghouse," said Smith.  "We're even putting a love seat in it which he likes to sit on."

Duke may have his comical moments, but still stands as a pillar of pride for the battalion.

"He's a very loyal dog," said Smith.  "If you mess with him, he'll align you."



Now that my friend, is a real DOG.



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thesnake

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Dog attack fatalities:

Breeds Involved
Pit Bull and Pit-bull-type dogs (21%), Mixed breed dogs (16%),
Rottweilers (13%), German Shepherd Dogs (9%), Wolf Dogs (5%),
Siberian Huskies (5%), Malamutes (4%), Great Danes (3%),
St. Bernards (3%), Chow Chows (3%), Doberman Pinschers (3%),
other breeds & non-specified breeds (15%).

While at times informative, statistics on fatal dog attacks can also be misleading. For example, a large number of cases where a Pit Bull, Rottweiler or GSD were counted as causing a human fatality were the direct result of gross human negligence or criminal intent (i.e. discarding a newborn in the yard where the dogs were kept, or cases of extremely emaciated animals, or cases were the dog was ordered or encouraged to attack the victim).
 

Rosco

Registered
I’ve had a dog most of time during my childhood and adult life and love them.

But the simple choice is: Aggressive animal in your yard, Kill it.

Don’t risk going through life blaming yourself for a scarred child (or worse). Much better to cop a relatively small fine for firearm discharge in a metro area than see a family member or you hurt.

Just my opinion. (Glad it all worked out)


Cheers
Ross
smile.gif
 

gsteve

Registered
Im with Rev on this one. I understand the idea of the home the dog grows up being huge in the dogs behavior. But the pits and other fighting dogs have it "wired" that when its time to fight its going to be nasty and the pit is equipped to make a horrible mess of its enemy. It is sad that the dirt bags out there have make this breed more popular than they should be and therefore higher in numbers than would normally occur. That same fact also puts them in the hands of more idiots who help screw up the breed. Comparing a pissed off beagle with a pissed off pit is like comparing a BB gun with a 12 gauge. My dogs have gotta into lil scrapes with other dogs thier own size { Golden Retrievers} I have no prob , carefully wading in and separating them. If the neighborhood pitbull was in the mis that would be a HUGE mistake. Id have to grab the short handled spade that rests close by the gate., for various reasons. I love dogs... and respect them.. but there's none that scare me like the pit... Id take on 2 shepards before id try 1 pit. sj
 
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