Org un-scientific poll >>>>> Obama Care <<<<<

[BUSA CRUSEN]

If the government cared so much about our health they could start by helping to lower the cost of eating healthy food. Funny how it is so much cheaper to eat junk food all day than to eat healthy meals. What I believe is that the government is doing this to control every aspect about all our lives. Watched ABC news tonight and they were laughing about people claiming that the government is going to make everyone start eating broccoli, hahahahahahahaha. Then they said, the government can't make anybody eat broccoli, but they can raise taxes on other foods to help you move in that direction. Do they not realize that they basically just stated what people are worrying about? That scares me a lot.

Obamacare is meant to sound amazing which it does, but what is scary about it comes much later down the road once its too late to go back. Do yourself a favor, go ask your doctor what he/she thinks about this. Might change your mind about it if you like it.

[lil charlie]

Gee, the voting graph answer "get rid of Obamacare" is represented by a blue bar....shouldn't it be a red bar?

I just happened to have read a few hundred pages of the Affordable Care Act and am so proud of my Government. Preexisting conditions denial GONE, my dependents can be covered by me until 26 yrs of age, there is no more lifetime maximum, monster profits must be refunded to us the customers (don't worry, they'll still make billions), Joe ratbike, without his helmet, crashes into a curb and HE, not me, is required to have personal coverage so I won't have to pay for his brain dead existance like I do now. And don't forget, there is a cost reducing provision for seniors and drug expenses. Many more good things, but they don't matter when you hate President Obama and everything he does is evil. Don't forget, he has that secret plan to take our guns away, just ask the NRA.

Dude, you and I are on complete opposite sides of the political fence but the reason I picked “ I like parts of it†was because of the items you just listed. Some parts are good but to me I have seen too many bad parts that outweigh the good. Like DO3 said, the government has yet to prove to me that they can run anything….regardless of who’s in power. I hope we (our elected leaders) can work this out and make something good of this. Congress has their own plan….really….WTF!

Im WAY more discussed with Congress than I am any president. We need term limits, Congress should not be allowed to vote themselves raises, they should not be allowed to bypass Social Security, they should not get lifetime retirement, and they should not have their own previsions in this health care law. You serve the “people†not yourself! There’s too much greed in politics.

[VaBusa]

I read captain's post and thought to myself "yeah, I agree", then I read raydogs and said "oh yeah, very valid points and in line with how I feel", so yet again, under this gov't of ours, I truly feel torn. I feel that if you can't position yourself clearly on one side or the other, you don't have representation in today's world. I don't want more handouts, more gov't, bigger gov't, but I also don't think everyone fits in a box and all those that would benefit from Obamacare are losers that won't help themselves. There are Americans in need, but the flip side is that there are also plenty that want the handout, that take advantage, that don't seem to have to jump through all of the hoops the rest of us seem to have to in order to just be...

I do know that I have seen signs of BIG changes with my personal insurance...this year, they presented an alternative "high-end, high-deductible" insurance plan, and I'll be honest, the initial numbers are daunting, the amount of $ I need to put forth to go for visits I routinely go for...I have so many doctors for so many different reasons, and suddenly, I'm wondering how I'll afford it. The writing is on the wall here; I have maybe one more year to stick with my more affordable plan, but we were told by the reps at Anthem and our H/R dept that eventually, we'll all be on this new, "better" plan that costs me way more than I can afford. Everyone here says this is the beginning of Obamacare, but I honestly don't know anymore...insurance companies rule most of the industry and seem to have so much clout, they can even override my doctor's advice on med and procedures, so I don't know what to believe is good vs. bad, who should be blamed, etc...

In the end, there is a need out there to help fellow Americans, but there's also a huge need to eradicate the abuse and waste. I don't know that we'll ever find that happy medium; it's such a divisive issue and it seems, for me anyway, that those who see both sides have zero say/voice in the matter. Only the right or the left are being heard, nothing in the middle. IMHO, America needs the middle...

[Easy E]

Well, my daughters need to be on my med program because they are both on a med school track and I enjoy helping them with their education AND healthcare. Not every 25 year old needs to be away from the nest and fully employed and independent. And BTW, needing to "grow up and get a job" isn't my family's creedo, becoming educated critical thinkers and being grounded in science is. Not everybody must goosestep to the same "growing up timetable".

One of my professional positions has been a special education teacher so one thing I never do is make "sweeping generalities" about people refusing to take care of themselves. The average IQ is 100 which means that half the folks are under that number. That point doesn't address the diseases and disabilities some contract or are born with. Some of us feel the need to help those that are less capable of helping themselves, funny how me the "atheist" sounds so "Christian" about helping others....I guess someone has to do it. I suppose I could call everyone less fortunate than me "freeloaders" and "parasites" and use the people that exploit the social welfare system as my reason for "letting em care for themselves"....but it's not in my DNA.

Regarding wealth and taxes, if you look at middle class income over 30 years, then overlay domestic corporate profit and distribution of wealth, you will see taxes have not hurt us at all, but lack of financial growth (American Dream) has. The top 1% of population now control 92% of the wealth, not because of work ethic, high morals or fairness, but because of top tier corporate greed, outsourcing, loss of domestic production and LACK of taxes from those that make the most. But you red state folks can just keep on blaming the poor and the unions. Oh yeah, and the "Kenyan". Blaming President Obama for no jobs is like blaming the attending doctor for the patient dying of a gunshot wound to the heart.

Could not have said it better myself..Go Raydog...somebody with some common sense..can't just throw out the baby with the bath water.....Freeloaders I agree must go but don't throw away those in need with them.

[Warchild]

• Keep Obamacare it's a great thing
• Get rid of Obamacare from start to finish NOW
• I don't like it but I think we need it
• I like parts of it but it needs to go away
• I like it but it's not good for the county it should go.

Let's see... offer one positive, and four patently negative options. Partisan much?

Oh course it's not going to be a perfect thing, and surely it will need refinement as we go along. But at least it's a step toward dealing with the mess that comprises our current health care systems.

It is definitely not the end of the world.

No, the latter is supposed to occur on Dec 21 of this year. Between the Apocalypse, and this being an election year, I think it is fairly obvious what we all need to do.

We all must stock up on ammo, and we must stock up on ammo now!!!

[skydivr]

I sit on both sides of this fence, as an employer who must now somehow figure out how the heck I'm going to pay for this, and the employee/recipient. I can tell you that both sides smell like shait. While big corps and the unions are already getting exemptions, us small businesses will bear the brunt - makes us harder to compete in the marketplace - and in the end raises prices on everything we do in order to absorb the additional cost. When you realize that most business NET maybe 1%, a cost increase this large eats that up quick.

We pay 84% of our employees insurance premium, it's hundreds of thousands of $$ a year. With the new law, we will have a choice; continue to pay the six figures, or pay five figures in penaltys to the government and tell everyone to go get on the government sponsored plan - by default eventually it will lead to a single-payer system, run by a totally inefficient and ineffective agency (the government), and while MORE may get healthcare, the quality and timelyness of the healthcare you get will be much worse, rationed, and the decision taken out of your hands.

The only thing good that came out of this is that it was NOT upheld as being within the powers of the commerce clause, and was considered a tax by a majority of the court. A tax imposed is a tax repealed, and it may infuriate the voters enough to get them to make the right decision on who they elect.

The cost to small business will be enormous. Obama, in effect, just passed the largest tax increase on the middle class, EVER, but you won't see it until 2014 or so (by coincidence NOT until after the election).

If you think this law will force people who would not get insurance in the first place to get it, you are smoking a new flavor of crack. Why should they? What's the penalty? Let me answer that - none. Those who don't make enough will get waivered or will still be showing up in the ER and will still pay zero, the rest of us again paying for it.

It will be interesting to revisit this thread in 2014-16 and see if peoples perceptions have changed or not, once the full effect of this law kicks in.

[Gpmo]

Why didn't the repubs offer up help or their own solution for our healthcare issues? I don't remember hearing anything other than staunch determination to not work with the DEMs. Obamas plan isn't perfect and may not be right but it's the only plan I know of.

If anyone is thinking that the healthcare system was right before it wasnt. It also was not a free market. Something needed done and if only one option is put forth then it usually wins out.

I could be wrong and am just trying to remember so I anyone knows of the plan then repubs presented or if they even tried to participate please educate me.

[SLO MO]

Unfortunately, I have not read enough of what is in the legislation to make an informed decision....

I wish more people would just do this, because if you look at it point by point there is no way anyone should have a problem with this unless you are one of the people that don't pay for health care now and don't want to have to fork over a couple of dollars so the rest of us are not paying for it.

[Gpmo]

Another question. The "tax" is only for those who don't already have healthcare? So I shouldn't see a tax increase from this bill since I have insurance.

[skydivr]

Another question. The "tax" is only for those who don't already have healthcare? So I shouldn't see a tax increase from this bill since I have insurance.

You currently have insurance thru your employer, or personally? What if your employer elects to pay the penalty instead of providing insurance, that you are now compelled to buy yourself if you don't already have it? Or, the insurance you DO have now goes up dramatically to cover the cost of the people they are now forced to accept?

[zukracer]

unless there is a provision in there that says basically that employers cannot simply cut plans and just pay the penalty and let their employees fall back on the govt plan, there will always be issues. I don't think the govt could effectively run a cupcake give away at fat kid camp so why the hell do I want to trust them to say whats best for my health? As I said there's good things in there but govt health care and decreased care levels really is not the best option. I love the sections for preventative care but worry that someone will say "oh red meat causes heart disease, there's a 500% tax on it to prevent folks from getting sick". There's limits and it seems the door stop has been removed and its only a matter of time before someone slams the knob through the wall.

I would suggest you all look at how things are done in the EU a little more. In Germany if you want to cut down a tree, you have to go buy the govt mandated clothing. You have to take the govt mandated "how to use a chain saw" class. You have to prove you meet all the requirements before you can go buy the chain saw and you have to do everything just so while cutting down the tree or face fines/penalties. I believe there are also some taxes involved if you want to keep the wood you cut down. Hard to believe? There's all kinds of things like this across other countries and sure to be coming here with the way things seem to be going.

I wish I had the time to sit and read the entire law, I don't. I work for a living and expect that at least the folks that signed it into law (and by the way get paid to read this kinda crap) had read it however that seems to be incorrect. The system we have is not perfect, not even close but this removes even more power from my doctor and places it into "guidelines" from a group that generally are lazy yes men(and women) who will just do the minimum required to keep their job.

[Gpmo]

You currently have insurance thru your employer, or personally? What if your employer elects to pay the penalty instead of providing insurance, that you are now compelled to buy yourself if you don't already have it? Or, the insurance you DO have now goes up dramatically to cover the cost of the people they are now forced to accept?

I have insurance through my employer. Whom I believe are going to continue to provide. If they didn't I would be buying it anyhow due to the ridiculous costs of health care with insurance it's going to be hundred times more with out. As for my insurance costs they have been going up dramatically each years so I'm not sure that's not any different.

[Easy E]

I don't think employers are going to get rid of their healt care and just pay the penalties. Part of the reason people choose to work for a particular employer is because they offer health insurance. If they cut it employees will be looking for other jobs that do offer it or in the least the most talented employees a company has may just go to work for a competitor.

[skydivr]

Some additional insight:
-----------------------------------------------------


Affordable Health Care Act Upheld (Mostly) –The decision of the Supreme Court to
uphold the new health care law dubbed “Obamacareâ€was a shock in many ways. Not so
much that the law was upheld –there was a 15% to 20% chance that the Court would
go that way. The shock is that the 5-4 vote included Chief Justice John Roberts
joining the liberals on the court despite the fact he disagreed with their
rationale for supporting the law. Before we start getting into the analysis it is
good to note that this is one of the biggest cases the Court has handed down in
years and the opinions are close to 200 pages in length. It will be days before all
of these are read and completely understood.

There are some elements that are understood now.

The first is that the law stands as far as the Supreme Court is concerned. If the law is to be changed or repealed
that will have to come through Congress and that guarantees that this will be the primary issue for most of those running for office this year –right alongside the economy.

The politics of the situation will be explored in detail in the weeks ahead but for
the most part the decision is seen as a big win for Obama but something of a win
for Romney as well. Polls suggest that the majority of the population does not like
the law and for many Republican leaning voters this is the number one issue for
them. Now that the law stands the only way they defeat it will be through electing
Romney and putting the Republicans in charge of the Senate. Obama was not
humiliated with a stinging defeat but the law now becomes the prime GOP club going
into the heat of the race.

The reason that Roberts supported the mandate was not the same as the rationale
used by the four liberal judges. They thought that the mandate was allowed under
the provisions of the Interstate Commerce Act. Roberts did not agree.
He found the act constitutional because failure to get insurance will result in a tax
assessment. This essentially means that there is no longer a mandate from a leagal point of view.
Nobody is forcing anyone to get insurance. One will be taxed if they
choose not to get insurance but that will be their choice and the government is
allowed to tax. The view is somewhat narrow from a social point of view but it is
on solid legal ground. The supporters did not want this to be a tax issue but now
it is. That will feed into the political debates that go forward from here.

What do we know about the business implications now? That is what will emerge in
the weeks ahead but until the elections are over there will still be considerable
confusion given the desire to repeal the law should the GOP win control. All that
is known thus far is that the systems that have started to develop will now
continue to go forward.

The law demands that everyone have insurance (or pay the penalty er.. I mean tax).
That insurance can be paid for by the employer or it can be personal. It can be
Medicare or Medicaid or some other system. The insurance industry is now required
to offer coverage regardless of pre-existing conditions and they will not be
allowed to charge excessive premiums so they will depend on signing up lots of
people who will not need help and therefore not be a burden on the business so that
they can handle the costs of those who need help.
It will now come down to how the insurance companies go about filling their plans. Will they focus on putting
together personal health insurance offerings or will they focus on providing plans
to the business community so that they can sign their employees up?
In truth some insurance companies will choose one or the other of these approaches and some will
offer both.

The provision that has worried the majority of the small and medium sized business
community is the one that requires companies with over 50 employees to offer a
health plan or face a $2,000 per employee fine.
This means that a company with 100 employees is looking at an annual hit of $200,000. The average company will make
their decision on whether or not to offer a plan based on which is cheaper – paying
the fine or paying the premiums. It is expected that insurance companies will
strive to develop plans that will cost just under the cost of these fees.

The real question for the companies with fewer than 50 employees is what they will have to do to keep the people they have. Their employees will be mandated to have insurance and that means they will be paying for it themselves. Will the cost ofthat insurance be high enough that they reject working for the smaller company in favor of a larger competitor that is offering a plan?


Much will depend on how well the state exchanges work. Some states are far along the process as they assumed the law would be upheld and some are far behind as they thought that it would not be. Now they all have to be ready by 2014 and the racewill be on to offer a diverse set of options for people who now have to choose one plan or another.

The question of repeal is now at the top of the GOP agenda but many question howrealistic that goal is. In order to get the law repealed the GOP would have to havea supermajority in the Senate – over 60 votes. That is judged nearly impossible at the moment. It is somewhat likely that the GOP will have a majority but not enough
to overcome a Democratic veto and on this issue there will be no crossing of party line. The Presidential race is too close to call but Obama currently has a very slight lead. Should Romney win, he will be able to thwart parts of the law and hemight even be able to starve it of funds but the business community will likelyoppose this strategy. In general the business leaders do not like the law but they like uncertainty about the law even less. They want to know the rule and if it doesn’t look like it will be repealed they want to have it left alone so they can figure it out and adjust.

For the broader economy, there is probably no worse outcome than one that delays the “certainty†for another 8 months. Small and medium sized businesses have said that they are keeping their growth plans on hold until after health care certaintyis…well, certain. To put certainty on hold until after the election and potentially after January 20 is devastating for business spending. Again, the underlying impact from businesses also being put on hold (from a sentiment perspective) couldbe the real travesty in the whole issue.

[Gpmo]

It's interesting to talk with a small to medium business owner about how they think it will play out. Thanks for giving me that side Skydiver. I would be interested to hear from one on the other side of the political isle also but not sure there is one that is posting here.

[mynewride]

No kidding dadofthree...a good random thought might be to ask what DOES the government do a good job of managing???

the IRS

[skydivr]

It's interesting to talk with a small to medium business owner about how they think it will play out. Thanks for giving me that side Skydiver. I would be interested to hear from one on the other side of the political isle also but not sure there is one that is posting here.

For the most part, I RARELY see a small business owner that is a liberal or will claim to be one. Most that I see want to be left the heck alone, keep taxes within reason, keep regulations/paperwork to a minimum. What we all need is some STABILITY.

Yes, healthcare costs are a HUGE concern. We as businesses will either close or pass them along to our customers in the form of higher prices. I'd like to see some changes, but I feel this law was too big too fast and not well thought out. The only people it really benefits are those who don't work and puts it on the backs of those who do.

Once the 'takers' outnumber the 'givers' in the system, the system becomes unsustainable because the takers can take what they want...

If you want to look at what central planning and control really looks like, the worst example is North Korea....

[captain]

Let's see... offer one positive, and four patently negative options. Partisan much?

Oh course it's not going to be a perfect thing, and surely it will need refinement as we go along. But at least it's a step toward dealing with the mess that comprises our current health care systems.

It is definitely not the end of the world.

No, the latter is supposed to occur on Dec 21 of this year. Between the Apocalypse, and this being an election year, I think it is fairly obvious what we all need to do.

We all must stock up on ammo, and we must stock up on ammo now!!!

What other options would you like to have seen posted? I like parts of it and it should stay? Its already here.....

[05 Busa LE]

Here is where we differ Doyle...

I don't want to support my kids until they are 26.... They need to grow up and get a job..

Monster Profits, REALLY? So a private company sets the prices, you don't like them then use someone else. Competition should be used to drive the cost down not the government.

As far as brain damage, thats great if he is in the middle class but you know as well as I do that this same guy is now not going to carry his own coverage or enough to care for him the rest of his life, who pays for that?

There is a reason that California is broke, you just can't sustain a system if you put out more money than you take in end of story.. No more people are going to be paying in our taxes are going to go up.. You and I are going to be flipping the bill for the very same plus more people that refuse to take care of themselves... If you want to give your money away to people thats fine but please don't give my money away too. Asking Nancy Pelosi her answer today I thought was brilliant, lets ask the lady that covers the brokest state in the union about financial advise and how this is going to help the country... While it is true I don't like Obama for the same reasons I am telling you, stop giving my money away to people that refuse to stand up and take control of their own lives...

Now I'm ready for you to tell me about he poor people and how the man keeps people repressed and down. Tell me about the 25yr old kid still in college because he wants to be an artist and he needs to be on his mothers insurance at 25 yrs old. Let's hear all the sad stories now...

CAp

I'll tell you a sad story.

Wait until Monster Profit Company 350 tells you or your wife or your mom or your 26-year old child to go pound sand, we're not paying for your health insurance any more because you cost too much. Bye-bye. Oh, and get them out of the hospital by the end of the week. Then you watch them die.

Then try to sue Monster Profit Company 350. You'll spend at least a decade trying to defeat one of the largest law firms in the world. And then maybe, just maybe, you'll win. But, probably not, because their client contributes more to campaigns in a year than your entire family will make in generations. And if you're lucky enough to win, let me know how "satisfying" that feels. Or if it teaches Monster Profit Company 350 "a lesson." Doesn't matter, because they've been laughing at you from the first time you dared to challenge them, because they know they'll spend more money in legal fees to defeat you than what it would have cost them to save a hundred of your worthless relatives' lives. But, that's in their budget--not your sickly wife, mom, child who's taking too much off our bottom line.

How's that for a sad story?

If that doesn't bother you, let me know. I'll dig up another one for you.

[captain]

I'll tell you a sad story.

Wait until Monster Profit Company 350 tells you or your wife or your mom or your 26-year old child to go pound sand, we're not paying for your health insurance any more because you cost too much. Bye-bye. Oh, and get them out of the hospital by the end of the week. Then you watch them die.

Then try to sue Monster Profit Company 350. You'll spend at least a decade trying to defeat one of the largest law firms in the world. And then maybe, just maybe, you'll win. But, probably not, because their client contributes more to campaigns in a year than your entire family will make in generations. And if you're lucky enough to win, let me know how "satisfying" that feels. Or if it teaches Monster Profit Company 350 "a lesson." Doesn't matter, because they've been laughing at you from the first time you dared to challenge them, because they know they'll spend more money in legal fees to defeat you than what it would have cost them to save a hundred of your worthless relatives' lives. But, that's in their budget--not your sickly wife, mom, child who's taking too much off our bottom line.

How's that for a sad story?

If that doesn't bother you, let me know. I'll dig up another one for you.

Actually that doesn't bother me... Insurance is not on the hook for all of your medical cost forever and ever... Go check your car insurance and you will see what I mean... Auto insurance is only as good as the policy that is purchased, most top out around 100k and regardless if you have more medical bills than that you have maxed out your plan. The same hold true for home insurance, you want better insurance then fork over the cash, if you are a renter then you better pony up some money cause it costs to insure your property... People are way too emotional on these issues, does it suck, yep it does but you know what... You have all the time in the world to get with your insurance company to get a better plan, does it cost for better service yep, its a business not a charity. Call me cold hearted all you want but the facts are there insurance companies are not non profit, they make businees decisions just like every other service and product company out there... If you think your mother needs better insurance they dude stop crying to me about it and go pay it yourself. My parent have great insurance, why because they know that its expensive do they pay out the wazoo for it yep but thats a choice they made so they could get good health care and not get kicked out of the hospital. Do they sacrifice other luxery things so they can pay for insurance? Yep cause thats what adults do they have their priorities straight.

Can you tell me one service or product in our country that doesn't have some sort of limit on it? Sad, maybe but if you want something better then in this country go start your own insurance company and offer these unlimited services to your customers for a low fee and lets see how long you stay in business..... The truth here is just like I mentioned to Doyle, you can't put out more than you take in end of story, it is a limited systemic problem... This is why California is broke, they give away more of other people's money than they take in... So you either get more money via taxes or you stop offering those services. That is why you don't see ANY insurance company offering unlimited services or coverage...

cap