Org un-scientific poll >>>>> Obama Care <<<<<

What would you do if you had the power

  • Keep Obamacare it's a great thing

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Get rid of Obamacare from start to finish NOW

    Votes: 51 70.8%
  • I don't like it but I think we need it

    Votes: 2 2.8%
  • I like parts of it but it needs to go away

    Votes: 11 15.3%
  • I like it but it's not good for the county it should go.

    Votes: 1 1.4%

  • Total voters
    72
  • Poll closed .
That's one possible outcome. The other is that if we get everyone covered and some sanity to the rates healthcare companies are making then costs will become manageable. That sounds crazy but it can and has happened in some industries. One problem is the tax structure. Allowing companies to give CEO's huge bonuses is only viable if the tax code allows them to keep that money.

What these companies are doing to this country is no less than treason. And what they are doing now is threatening to make the pain intolerable for the average citizen unles we let them steal as much money as they want. Only the Federal government can stop that sort of institotionalized extortion. If an industry that is as fundamentally essential to our well being as healthcare decided to use that position to rob everyone what do you do? That's why the government has to step into healthcare. Remember people said the government shouldn't get into the auto industry. But the structural problems in that business could not be resolved in a normal business environment. The government took it over, fixed the stuff that business couldn't (legacy debt and entitlements/pensions) and has now set it on it's way more healthy than ever and without the hit we would have all felt had it just gone bankrupt.
 
I agree that CEO bonuses have gotten out of hand, but there is a solution to that. Board of Directors, elected by shareholders (almost sounds like goverment, doesn't it) have the power to elect or fire those that make such outrageous promises. However, that is still PRIVATE ENTERPRISE and therefore it's none of the goverment's business what they make. Nor the public's unless they happen to own stock in said company. P.S. I don't think there should have been any bailouts either, but once the bailout money was given, the goverment DOES have a say in the their pay until the pay every penny back IMHO.

The goverment didn't fix the automakers problems, they just let them walk away from their debt - remember the union's penions were left intact...the bondholders and creditors lost out.
 
Another question. The "tax" is only for those who don't already have healthcare? So I shouldn't see a tax increase from this bill since I have insurance.

Correct, and according to the stats from the reform act that was put into place in Massachusetts some time ago by Mitt Romney, close to 2% of the eligible population pays the penalty which is assessed as a state tax (if I'm not mistaken) I might have to read it again to be sure but this means 98% don't pay a penalty because they have it.

Since this plan is similar to the state of MA plan, I try to check out some of the data that tells what effect it has had in that state, for those that like to research this is a good read its the 2011 report for Health Reform in Massachusetts.

https://www.mahealthconnector.org/p.../Overview/HealthReformAssessingtheResults.pdf
 
When asked most congressmen stated they did not read the 2100 pages of law... That my friend is a fact, this is why this is such a problem... We have no idea what was really put into law!


Dont cancel it. There's an earmark program hidden in it for the 'Save Blanca fund' to the amount of ten million dollars. I had my lobbyist sneak it in there for me :laugh:
 
I'll admit this will *never* happen no matter who gets elected but...

If we want all these entitlement programs (aka social or govt programs) its easy enough to do just follow these steps:
1) Stop giving illegals any benefits. Require proof of citizenship to get your govt cheese. This would free up over 100B a year easily. True immigration reform would be huge.
2) Stop giving away money to other countries for a year, especially to ones that are not friends. This should free up close to 1T a year or more
3) Kill all unions within the federal govt and run it like a business should be run. Cut the dead weight, reduce bloated staff and increase staff where its better used. Require govt groups to adhere to budgets like a real company would need to do.
4) Fix the tax code. Loop holes allow the richest to pay less than the poorest....at least the poorest that actually pays tax.
5) Require taxes be paid by EVERYONE. Even if its $100 everyone should be able to pay something. $10/month, even withheld from the govt dole would still give them back $20 at the end of the year. With more than half of the country not paying anything currently this would have to make a dent.
6) Balance the budget based on income, do not expect to operate in a deficit that's planning to fail without a chance to succeed. :banghead:
7) Allow, force, beg, borrow, steal, whatever some of the higher efficient car models from over seas to be sold in the US. Most of the EU requirements are tighter than ours but we cannot get their more fuel efficient diesel models in the US :wtf:
8) Fix the education system here. Stop teaching to EOY tests in grade school, stop practicing for exams for 6 months, give out D's and F's to students. Make secondary education affordable and available. I'm not suggesting everyone goes to Harvard or Yale but find a way to get folks into trade schools or some other secondary schools once they are done with high school. Require everyone graduate or get their GED to get govt programs.
9) Secure our gold reserves. If China, Russia and others manage to get the world markets back on the gold standard instead of the USD we are BONED. If all the doomsday economists are right we are heading that way and the US does NOT have enough gold reserves to justify the value of the USD if the gold standard is brought back.

Like I said NONE of that will happen regardless of who's in office. However if it did, the USD would be the most valuable currency out there, you could have all of the social programs, free health care, etc that you want. Oh yeah, we would also probably be hovering around 1-3% unemployment with all of that.
 
I agree that CEO bonuses have gotten out of hand, but there is a solution to that. Board of Directors, elected by shareholders (almost sounds like goverment, doesn't it) have the power to elect or fire those that make such outrageous promises. However, that is still PRIVATE ENTERPRISE and therefore it's none of the goverment's business what they make. Nor the public's unless they happen to own stock in said company. P.S. I don't think there should have been any bailouts either, but once the bailout money was given, the goverment DOES have a say in the their pay until the pay every penny back IMHO.

The goverment didn't fix the automakers problems, they just let them walk away from their debt - remember the union's penions were left intact...the bondholders and creditors lost out.

There are laws that regulate the banking industry. For example, there is a limit as to how much you can charge on interest. This is because if you didn't do this banks could basically extort so much money from evryone that none would be left. It's the same for healthcare. If they are going to charge crazy rates for something you have to buy, then what will you do?

Why can't I pool my money with my neighbor and have my own health insurance. Then if a company wants to charge me carzy rates fine but i have an alternative. What people don't get is that without the threat of the government becoming a player (or said another way, we all pool our money and create our own insurance so we don't have to get robbed by insurance companies) these companies can rob you blind and there is nothing you can do.

I don't like to see the government doing stuff that private companies can do because that takes resources out of the economy and adds it to the tax burden. But we also can't allow certain companies to steal so much money from the people that they become a tax in and of themselves.
 
Well, my daughters need to be on my med program because they are both on a med school track and I enjoy helping them with their education AND healthcare. Not every 25 year old needs to be away from the nest and fully employed and independent. And BTW, needing to "grow up and get a job" isn't my family's creedo, becoming educated critical thinkers and being grounded in science is. Not everybody must goosestep to the same "growing up timetable".

One of my professional positions has been a special education teacher so one thing I never do is make "sweeping generalities" about people refusing to take care of themselves. The average IQ is 100 which means that half the folks are under that number. That point doesn't address the diseases and disabilities some contract or are born with. Some of us feel the need to help those that are less capable of helping themselves, funny how me the "atheist" sounds so "Christian" about helping others....I guess someone has to do it. I suppose I could call everyone less fortunate than me "freeloaders" and "parasites" and use the people that exploit the social welfare system as my reason for "letting em care for themselves"....but it's not in my DNA.

Regarding wealth and taxes, if you look at middle class income over 30 years, then overlay domestic corporate profit and distribution of wealth, you will see taxes have not hurt us at all, but lack of financial growth (American Dream) has. The top 1% of population now control 92% of the wealth, not because of work ethic, high morals or fairness, but because of top tier corporate greed, outsourcing, loss of domestic production and LACK of taxes from those that make the most. But you red state folks can just keep on blaming the poor and the unions. Oh yeah, and the "Kenyan". Blaming President Obama for no jobs is like blaming the attending doctor for the patient dying of a gunshot wound to the heart.

You and I are on opposite sides of this issue. The folks that approve of Obama Care has become a minority by a sizeable margin. I am grateful that the american people as a whole have rejected the coolaid.

If you love your kids and want them insured after they have left the nest, by all means keep them insured at YOUR expense. They are your kids and your responsibility. I had no involvement in the conception so please don't pass your responsibilities onto me after your kids are grown.

The federal government cannot effectively run such a massive monstrosity like Obama Care efficiently. Look at the fraud within the medicare system that the government has no idea how to control. Medicare is a walk in the park compared to Obama Care. Insurance companies do a damn good job at rooting out fraud because their existence depends on it.

The health care system needs repair but this boondockle in not the answer. So I understand, a family earning $35K annually will pay around $2,500 in insurance premiums which will be deducted from their check by their employer. They can hardly feed themselves as is, what effect do you suppose this will have on the lower income scale folks.

Your posts make it appear your view is: "If you don't agree with me, you are stupid"? Correct me if I am wrong.
 
Awesome Tuf! That was exactly what I was thinking but couldn't figure out how to put it into words.....:laugh:

"If you don't agree withme, you are stupid"?
 
The truth is that no matter who gets elected we will see some sort of socialized healthcare. This is simply because you can't trust a business with an essential service - they are going to go for max profits so the more essential they are the more their prices get out of control. Healthcare costs are strangling everyone, and we are paying maximum dollars for an average system at best. If Romney wins it will be a stealth combination of rules on providers and adjustments to medicare. If Obama wins (and gets a few congressman) it will be a full frontal assult. Socializing the healthcare system is not a Democratic or Republican issue - THEY BOTH HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO IT FOR DECADES.
 
Anyone have links to official polls that state support by the populace is for it against the bill?

35k a year is easily able to support paying insurance if your employer offers insurance, but it requires folks to live within means. Which is very hard for some people.

I'm really stuck still. I believe in a free market but healthcare is not a normal product it's a required to live product. The insurance company's have proven they can't handle being a fairly run Institution and provide Less constantly for more. Something needed done and I still haven't seen a proposed plan from anyone on the federal level other than the president.

All I know is we need to fix it and what ever way we go we need to do it better than everywhere else. :).
 
And so it begins. This morning we got a letter from BC/BS of TN:
----------------------------------
PROVIDER NETWORK CHANGE THAT MAY EFFECT YOUR EMPLOYEES

Dear Group Administrator:

Our mission is to provide you and your employees with peace of mind thru affordable health care coverage and we work hard to deliver on this promise every day. We strive to offer your employees networks with quality hospitals, physicians and facilities that also help your business control costs. When providers ask for a significant increase in the amount they are paid to treat your employees, the result is a higher cost to your group's health coverage.

The Memorial Heathcare System (Memorial) in Chattanooga, which includes Memorial Hosptial, Memorial Hosptial-Hixson, and the Mary Ellen Locher Breast Cancer Center, has requested a double-digit increase in the rate they charge for services - which is more than four times the rate of inflation. If we cannot reach a reasonable agreement with Memorial on these rates prior to July 31, 2012, the hospital with withdraw from our BlueCross "P" Network.

While we cannot maintain an affordable network for you and pay them a double-digit increase, we want Memorial in our network and will continue our negotiations in good faith to keep Memorial as a Blue Newtork "P" option for you and your employees.

What does this mean for your employees? BlueCross plans give your employees the freedom to visit the hospital of your choice. However, if they use a Memorial facility after 31 July 2012, they will receive out-of-network benefits. This means they will pay more for the same care they could receive from an in-network hospital.

blah blah blah. No sense in typing the rest. Just says what local hosptials remain in the network.

-----------------------------
Ironic we got this the week that SCOTUS handed down the Obamacare decison. I suspect this is just the first volley.
 
A lifelong friend of my brother's is a wig with BC/BS in Arkansas. She told him expect premiums to increase at least 300% over the next 2 years.

From my dunce stool :cookoo:
 
The law was craftily passed so that the effects would not be felt until AFTER it was too late to repeal it, and Obama had his second term in the bag....Those of us who sponser existing health plans are likely to be dealt with such higher premiums that our choices are to a) Close our business or b) give up and pay the fine (thereby guarantying a single payer government plan)....or c) let enough people go to get under the 50 employee threshhold.

A 300% increase would eat up every penny of our profit and then some.
 
You will see a lot of all three of those choices being executed over the next two years, sadly.

The law was craftily passed so that the effects would not be felt until AFTER it was too late to repeal it, and Obama had his second term in the bag....Those of us who sponser existing health plans are likely to be dealt with such higher premiums that our choices are to a) Close our business or b) give up and pay the fine (thereby guarantying a single payer government plan)....or c) let enough people go to get under the 50 employee threshhold.

A 300% increase would eat up every penny of our profit and then some.
 
And so it begins. This morning we got a letter from BC/BS of TN:
----------------------------------
PROVIDER NETWORK CHANGE THAT MAY EFFECT YOUR EMPLOYEES

Dear Group Administrator:

Our mission is to provide you and your employees with peace of mind thru affordable health care coverage and we work hard to deliver on this promise every day. We strive to offer your employees networks with quality hospitals, physicians and facilities that also help your business control costs. When providers ask for a significant increase in the amount they are paid to treat your employees, the result is a higher cost to your group's health coverage.

The Memorial Heathcare System (Memorial) in Chattanooga, which includes Memorial Hosptial, Memorial Hosptial-Hixson, and the Mary Ellen Locher Breast Cancer Center, has requested a double-digit increase in the rate they charge for services - which is more than four times the rate of inflation. If we cannot reach a reasonable agreement with Memorial on these rates prior to July 31, 2012, the hospital with withdraw from our BlueCross "P" Network.

While we cannot maintain an affordable network for you and pay them a double-digit increase, we want Memorial in our network and will continue our negotiations in good faith to keep Memorial as a Blue Newtork "P" option for you and your employees.

What does this mean for your employees? BlueCross plans give your employees the freedom to visit the hospital of your choice. However, if they use a Memorial facility after 31 July 2012, they will receive out-of-network benefits. This means they will pay more for the same care they could receive from an in-network hospital.

blah blah blah. No sense in typing the rest. Just says what local hosptials remain in the network.

-----------------------------
Ironic we got this the week that SCOTUS handed down the Obamacare decison. I suspect this is just the first volley.

we had the same thing a few months ago with the local hospital for us. They are literally like 8miles away and the next nearest is over 40. In the end they managed to figure it all out and kept the hospital in the system. Sometimes they play hard ball and ask for 10x what they want and then get enough pressure on them from all sides to make it work and get the $ they wanted. Typically it seems they ask for a moderate increase to cover something and get a "no" which prompts these types of pissin matches. Hopefully they sort it out and stay in network for you.

As for the 300% increase, its making me reconsider getting out of this small company and into a very large one. It seems the place you don't want to be is in a 51-999 size place unless they have hugely deep pockets and are willing to dig in them.
 
Still a lot of bad information and extreme speculation, again all you have to do is look at the effects of the reform act that has been in place since 2006 in the state of MA, the data is there for you to read and because the plan is similar it should be a very good look at the effects.

What it shows is the opposite of what a lot of people that seem to get there info from only one side of the fence are saying, there have been some expected cost increase.

https://www.mahealthconnector.org/p.../Overview/HealthReformAssessingtheResults.pdf



Good Read "Tax vs penalty" debate

"Tax" vs. "penalty" debate hurts both Obama and Romney - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

Things have gotten so bad for Chief Justice John Roberts that Mitt Romney would rather agree with Barack Obama. In the wake of the Affordable Care Act ruling, the Obama administration and the Mitt Romney campaign have agreed to define the same taxlike object not as a tax but as a penalty. This rare act of bipartisan agreement likely denies Romney a potent tax argument against the president, but that may be wise since the argument can be used against Romney, too.

Chief Justice Roberts saved the Affordable Care Act by finding that its individual mandate was constitutional under Congress' power to tax. "Hurray!," said White House aides, but also: Don't you dare call it a tax. The enforcement mechanism that pushes people to buy insurance should be called a penalty. It only acts as a tax on those who don't buy insurance. That's likely to be only 1 percent of the public, so it shouldn't be considered a tax.

Republican leaders reacted to this line of reasoning: Nuts to that. Even if the distinction between penalty and tax were legally valid enough to convince a majority of five justices, the argument could never survive in the political arena. If John Roberts conveyed legitimacy of the law by upholding it, then surely he conveyed the same legitimacy upon the idea that the Affordable Care Act was a secret tax increase, despite the president's insistence to the contrary (here, here, and here).

Republican super PACs such as American Crossroads and Americans for Prosperity launched million-dollar campaigns hitting Obama on the tax. "Now it's official: Obama increased taxes on struggling families," one ad says. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, arguing that the president's health care law was one long string of deceptions, said that the court's decision about taxation was:

... powerful confirmation of what may have been the biggest deception of all. For years, the President and his Democrat allies in Congress have sworn up and down that failing to comply with the individual mandate did not result in a tax on individuals or families. And the reason was obvious: if Americans knew that failure to comply resulted in a tax hike, it never would have passed. And the President wouldn't be able to claim his health care bill didn't raise taxes on the middle class, as he did, again, and again, and again. Well, yesterday the court blew the President's cover. It narrowly upheld this law on one basis only: that the penalty associated with the individual mandate is a tax.
On Sunday, the clever McConnell offered one more strategic benefit to the tax interpretation. Since Roberts had upheld the law on tax grounds, it meant that repealing the dreaded individual mandate would be easier. Under Senate rules for reconciliation, only 51 votes are required to pass a vote if it has budgetary impact. A mere penalty would not have such impact and require 60 votes. But now that Roberts had ruled, the lower threshold to overturning the legislation could now be used.

The president's opponents were helped in the early rounds because White House aides had worked themselves into contortions trying to argue that the concept of taxation that had saved the law did not apply to the law once it had been saved. Schrödinger's Tax: It is both a tax and not a tax.

Mitt Romney's campaign aides said the president was now in a box. He had to decide whether the individual mandate was a constitutional tax or an unconstitutional penalty. If the president were to cop to the tax, he'd embrace the big-taxing-liberal label. Cop to the penalty label, and he invalidates his own law.

The problem with this reasoning was Mitt Romney's advocacy for his health care law in Massachusetts. That law relies on a mechanism to enforce the individual mandate similar to the one in Obama's law. If a Massachusetts resident cannot prove on his tax forms that he has insurance, and is not eligible for a subsidy, he pays a higher tax rate. Gov. Romney doesn't talk about his health care law a lot now, but it was once considered his signature legislative accomplishment. When he talked about it, he repeatedly referred to this enforcement mechanism as a tax, not as a penalty. (See, for example, here, here, here, and here).

He boasted about this tax because in his view, it was in keeping with a fundamental Republican notion about personal behavior. " Using tax penalties, as we did, or tax credits, as others have proposed, encourages "free riders" to take responsibility for themselves rather than pass their medical costs on to others."

If Mitch McConnell was right and Barack Obama was a sneaky promulgator of tax hikes, then Mitt Romney was an unapologetic tax raiser.

On Monday, Romney's top adviser, Eric Fehrnstrom, changed the definition of Romney's Massachusetts plan. Though Romney had repeatedly called his Massachusetts provision a tax, Ferhnstrom was now calling it a penalty. With the move, the idea that such labels were interchangeable became less laughable. Obama aides seemed a little silly when they used search and replace to swap penalty for tax, but then Romney's man stepped in and performed the exact opposite switcheroo. GOP leaders have long suggested that once a thing had been called a tax, it must forever be known as such. But their party nominee was proving it was possible for one person to call a thing a tax and another to call the same thing a penalty. In Mitt Romney's case, the two opinions were being held by the same person: Mitt Romney. That significantly undermined the political argument.

Though Romney's past gums up the politics a bit for Republicans, as a legal matter he is still on firm ground. Romney can still argue that he was justified in imposing a tax, I mean penalty, because he had that authority as a governor. The Massachusetts courts found that in the only significant challenge to Romney's 2006 law. It focused on this penalty, I mean tax, and the courts threw it out, ruling it was allowed under the state's "police power" to put such laws in place

Alas, you can imagine why it might be politically difficult for Romney to turn this legal support for his position into a winning boast on the campaign trail: I passed a penalty to ensure the individual mandate using police power! Still, states are allowed such broad power under the 10th Amendment. A president and Congress don't have that kind of latitude to tell people what to do. Unless, of course, you think of it as a tax.
 
I can see how Romney is in a pickle. Just remember, that it was a STATE law not a FEDERAL one. People that didnt' like it could remain American citizens and leave the state....not so under federal law. I don't necessarily mind as much a state trying it as a test, with the ability to get out of it, as I do an entire country.

Zuk: You talk about how it might be better to work for a big company. Yep, large corps get another competitive edge on the small guy, but remember that all large businesses started out somewhere as small ones, and small business is the driver of the economic engine and jobs in the US. Make it too restrictive on small business, and there won't be any, and you can kiss most of the opportunities for new jobs bye-bye.
 
I can see how Romney is in a pickle. Just remember, that it was a STATE law not a FEDERAL one. People that didnt' like it could remain American citizens and leave the state....not so under federal law. I don't necessarily mind as much a state trying it as a test, with the ability to get out of it, as I do an entire country.

Zuk: You talk about how it might be better to work for a big company. Yep, large corps get another competitive edge on the small guy, but remember that all large businesses started out somewhere as small ones, and small business is the driver of the economic engine and jobs in the US. Make it too restrictive on small business, and there won't be any, and you can kiss most of the opportunities for new jobs bye-bye.

True and I've done both in my career. I've been in a fledgling start ups employee id 58 of a company that swelled to 4500, I've been employee #5 of a start up that got bought when we grew to employee 8, currently full time employee #7 of a company that employs over 100 but only about 40 are FTE. I have also worked for a 500employee consulting firm and of course the mother ship (Cisco) when they had 40k folks. The excitement and ability to grow the company is great in smaller companies but the benes are just not nearly what the larger ones provide....well at least the good ones. The one perk with my current company is that our bene plan is about what it was when I was at the 500emp firm. Same insurance just higher copays, yet same deductible.

As good as my company is about making sure they meet their obligations, they will pass along a 300% increase and have basically no power to say "hey, what the hell" to the insurance company. They employ/insure under 50 people so perhaps this company isnt a bad place to be given the 50+ cap on the new rules. That said, when I was at Cisco, they had a few changes along the way. There was talks of some changes and they used their size to basically bully the other company to give in. I dont know if that would work with whats coming but suspect a larger company could shoulder or deflect a massive increase better than my current company. I know all of the previous companies (all small and mostly start up) I've worked for would be hosed by a 300% increase.

Cisco started a employee scale down while I was there years ago. They focused on core vs context employees. A core employee was one that knew specific knowledge or was a revenue generator. Someone that the business leaders identified as "if they are gone we are screwed for a while" kinda folks. The context ones were basically everyone else. If you were a cost center but not core, if you did silly things like database admin or system admins, etc. As long as you were not an architect or core knowledge person your job was transitioned to an outsourcer (mostly IBM). Very few actually lost their jobs but they just moved to a new company and got a -x on their email address. My point with this is that I see this obamacare and other taxes that are coming impacting businesses the same way. If your job is more "context" based to your company I would be concerned. If your job is "core" to the company and their bottom line, less concerned but still worried. I cannot see the 50-999 sized companies keeping a lot of context based workers around when these new fees/taxes/etc come down the pipe.

In your case Keith, could you form a secondary company and just "outsource" the employee 50+ from that new company? Keeps your head count under the magic number and yet allows you to keep your employees the same as they have been. I believe it also allows the main company some tax write offs since your labor is a PO not a employee. Worked for Cisco, maybe it would work for you. :thumbsup:
 
The real question is do we want to live in a "corporate monarchy" or a true free society. You have to have some form of worker's rights to have freedom because the "owner class" has a natural power over someone who offers their service and then has to figure out how to get paid for it. The problem with a corporate monarchy is that only a few will own and so rule the roost. As owners (corporations) get bigger and bigger they naturally become more and more sociopathic and focus on their bottom lines over all else.

There are things in our lives that are inherently socialist (shared benifit) - roads, defense, air/water quality, etc. No one person or corporation can own these things that are basic requirements and have a society remain free to the individual. Healthcare is one of these things, as it is essential to the well being of the individual and the society (look at how AIDS has devastated many african societies or outbrakes of things like bird flu). We therefore have to have some level of control of healthcare by the people; as total corporate control threatens individual freedom. I would personally like to see a country of all small businesses. As businesses get bigger they begin to rival governments and therefore threaten individual freedom.
 
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