While messing with my valve adjusting..

(JINKSTER @ Apr. 07 2007,13:52)
(05BusaLe @ Apr. 07 2007,07:09) I thought the ram air effect didnt happen till 140 mph?
and your point is?
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I live in south floriduh man...and out in the middle of the state?...in "No-Mans-Land"?..."Alligator Alley"?....Swampola?...140 is just a 'lil higher than "Gett'in 'Round" speeds.
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ain't nuthin out there but Sportbikes...Police Choppers...alligators, hogs, redants, rattlesnakes and green 4X4 pick-up trucks with big gold stars on the doors...that still hit their own speed limiters just north of 100mph!
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and of course the occassional rogue FHP.
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L8R, Bill.
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Umm, OK!
Have fun then
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Round here aint nutting but the popo!

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Jinks great thought-never really cross my mind.I'm a 25yr mechanic,last 10yrs on the big rigs.A14.o liter series 60 detroit has a 1" breather hose,1500-1875ft lbs. of torque-will pull 80,000 lbs. with no problem.Lots of pressure built there.Your busa is 1.3liter,the small hose does seem large enough,I do see your point on larger.
As far as "ram air" and presurizing the air box,are you thinking you are puting pressure back into the crankcase?This is good think man!If that were highly true,you would blow seals and gaskets right out of the engine, it would not hold oil.
The only answer I can think of to anwser this with,is when the air box is pressurized,you"re at wide open throttle,the pressure is being released by the engine itself right out of the exhaust.Crankcase pressure is also being pulled through also.Cause if it wasn't,a seal or gasket failure would occure,or the engine would go booom.
Bigger hose wouldn't hurt a thing.
Turbo's and superchargers,thats a differant story.
Good thought-never crossed my mind.
 
(BusaCruise @ Apr. 07 2007,07:06)
(JINKSTER @ Apr. 07 2007,12:49) So MM..are you saying that the airbox is always under negitive pressure creating suction on the crankcase breather?..hmmm...I thought the whole intent of highspeed work in a ram air system was to cause the airbox to become "pressurized"....and that's what yields the ram air advantage...am i wrong in this thinking?
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not wrong ...just giving ram air more credit than it deserves.

if there is positive pressure it would be in the upper half of the airbox...
this keeps the motor from having to "search" for air.

...and notice the placement of the breather tube...between #2 & #3 TBs....on the lower level... if there's going to be pressure in the airbox...it wouldn't be there.  
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Somewhere they did a review on the efficiency of the different maker's ram air setups on bikes.....  Kawi was the hands don winner of course, because they have the most experience with it.


But one thing I remember from the article was the while the Busa was being tested....the machine they were using to provide the "ram air effect" wasn't able to keep up with the intake demands once the Busa was in the upper part of the RPM range.  
My take would be that there is rarely any real amount of positive pressure in the Busa airbox...and it quickly disappears.
The nose of the Busa is great for speed...but not for grabbing air to feed it well.

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"if there is positive pressure it would be in the upper half of the airbox...
this keeps the motor from having to "search" for air."


Sorry...i just can't buy that theory...i usta work for Pratt & Whitneys large military jet engine R&R/Test Facilty in West Palm Beach, Fl...twice...each time for just under 5 years..and?..had a hand in building lotsa "Flow Rigs" so engineers could test airflow before putting it into actual application and as i understand it?..pressure or vacuum in a sealed contained area doesn't vary from area to area...will there be a "ZONE" where it rapidly decreases at WOT right at the intake mouths of the demanding T-Bodies?....yes...but 99% of the rest of the airboxes internal area will be under an extremely consistant pressure or vacuum level..whatever the case may be..heck..following that train of thought?...is like saying that the air pressure in your tire is greater at the top than it is at the bottom when you're letting air out of the stem....and i just can't buy that..pressure and/or vacumm doesn't vary in a contained area...and?..

"...while the Busa was being tested....the machine they were using to provide the "ram air effect" wasn't able to keep up with the intake demands once the Busa was in the upper part of the RPM range..."

Then that "TEST" is null and void if the equipment wasn't up to snuff with the engines operating parameters...alls it proved is they didn't have the appropriate test equipment to be capable of yeilding accurate results right at the most important part of the test...high-end max rpms.

I still think this is worth investigating..i've also spoken with Ken Wheeler (Wheelers Performance) and he claims that the ram-air intake openings simply aren't large enough..which is why a "Small Airbox Mod" really doesn't make sense....amybe for low-mid range torque but not for top-end speed runs..because the AMOUNT of volume that's under pressure is critical to benefiting ram-aire as well....gents?....we may very well need a completely redesigned airbox..one of massively increased volume...JMHO and L8R, Bill.
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I have to put my 2 cents worth in here on this one the need for that hose is because of blow by. Due to emission laws the factory cant just vent it. The filter will make a mess and I doubt there is a real increase in power by venting it.
 
(JINKSTER @ Apr. 07 2007,10:45) your thinking is both right and wrong...first off?..you must understand that we're talking relieving air pressure in the crankcase here...not fluid dynamics..
The way I understand it, air is a fluid and if it's moving, it absolutely falls under the auspices of the study of fluid dynamics.

For example, you're attempting to relieve air pressure from the crank case which means moving air out of it to some other location. What I don't believe, however, is that you can't make the air move any faster by creating a negative air pressure in another location and connecting the two with a hose. What will affect it the most is the diameter of the hose.

You're on the right track, though; a fatter hose will allow more air to flow. Simple volume question there.

The same thing when you put your finger over the end of a hose. Pressure decreases, water moves faster and shoots farther out of the hose. But less water is moving through that space. The chain theory works here as well ergo, the air only moves as much as can be allowed through the area of least capacity.

Just theory of course. As far as engine mechanics goes, I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination.

--Wag--
 
(BusaCruise @ Apr. 07 2007,10:06)
(JINKSTER @ Apr. 07 2007,12:49) So MM..are you saying that the airbox is always under negitive pressure creating suction on the crankcase breather?..hmmm...I thought the whole intent of highspeed work in a ram air system was to cause the airbox to become "pressurized"....and that's what yields the ram air advantage...am i wrong in this thinking?
rock.gif
not wrong ...just giving ram air more credit than it deserves.

if there is positive pressure it would be in the upper half of the airbox...
this keeps the motor from having to "search" for air.

...and notice the placement of the breather tube...between #2 & #3 TBs....on the lower level... if there's going to be pressure in the airbox...it wouldn't be there.
wink.gif



Somewhere they did a review on the efficiency of the different maker's ram air setups on bikes..... Kawi was the hands don winner of course, because they have the most experience with it.


But one thing I remember from the article was the while the Busa was being tested....the machine they were using to provide the "ram air effect" wasn't able to keep up with the intake demands once the Busa was in the upper part of the RPM range.
My take would be that there is rarely any real amount of positive pressure in the Busa airbox...and it quickly disappears.
The nose of the Busa is great for speed...but not for grabbing air to feed it well.

zzwhip.gif
I think I read the same article. They couldn't supply enough airflow to the 'busa to simulate 140 mph or more - not with big fans, not with compressed air...

So even though Kawi showed the most airbox compression, they just don't know how the 'busa would compare. The guys in the article weren't impressed with the way the factory attempts to make that seal between the air scoop tubes and the airbox.

I was looking at this when I was seriously considering how to better seal that junction.

There is a member selling a custom mod for that, by the way, but I'm considering just using duct tape...

I'm just not sure how much there is to gain. I would like to see it tested on a dyno...
 
(JINKSTER @ Apr. 07 2007,14:55) Sorry...i just can't buy that theory...i usta work for Pratt & Whitneys large military jet engine R&R/Test Facilty in West Palm Beach, Fl...twice...each time for just under 5 years..and?..had a hand in building lotsa "Flow Rigs" so engineers could test airflow before putting it into actual application and as i understand it?..pressure or vacuum in a sealed contained area doesn't vary from area to area...will there be a "ZONE" where it rapidly decreases at WOT right at the intake mouths of the demanding T-Bodies?....yes...but 99% of the rest of the airboxes internal area will be under an extremely consistant pressure or vacuum level..whatever the case may be..heck..following that train of thought?...is like saying that the air pressure in your tire is greater at the top than it is at the bottom when you're letting air out of the stem....and i just can't buy that..pressure and/or vacumm doesn't vary in a contained area...and?..



Then that "TEST" is null and void if the equipment wasn't up to snuff with the engines operating parameters...alls it proved is they didn't have the appropriate test equipment to be capable of yeilding accurate results right at the most important part of the test...high-end max rpms.

I still think this is worth investigating..i've also spoken with Ken Wheeler (Wheelers Performance) and he claims that the ram-air intake openings simply aren't large enough..which is why a "Small Airbox Mod" really doesn't make sense....amybe for low-mid range torque but not for top-end speed runs..because the AMOUNT of volume that's under pressure is critical to benefiting ram-aire as well....gents?....we may very well need a completely redesigned airbox..one of massively increased volume...JMHO and L8R, Bill.
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first of all....my apoligies to anyone that has read my other statement about the air entering the upper half of the box....
the air in fact enters the bottom compartment of the airbox (if you have an OEM style airbox) and then has to be deflected upwards...flow from the center of the air filter outwards and then do a near u-turn to get to the TBs.
Not exactly efficient...but functional



now...unless you worked on a flow rig designed to test our airboxes, you are comparing figs and twigs.
wink.gif


the pressure affects can be different because of the way ours are chambered.
Take a look at the hondas and kawis... many of theirs have a direct "line of sight" (generally) type path from the intake tubes to the TB intakes.
I think Suzuki was more worried about the volume of air it could provide, opposed to the charging effect they could deliver.

and nothing about our systems is even remotely sealed...
(don't forget the drain holes built into the box and that stupid foam...lol )

if tires were equipped with different chambers...then they too could have the potential for more or less pressure in those partitions.

as for the "test" mentioned....the hardware used functioned just fine for every other machine in the group ... it's just that in part...the design of the Busa airbox was unable to provide a positive pressure similar to the other bikes, which led it to a "less than ideal" test result.
it still made power...just not the increases seen in the others.
whether it be by intake tube design or airbox design...you still aren't going to create any pressure that would make a hoot's bit of difference to the crankcase breather tube.
here's a snippet from one article...
SUZUKI GSX 1300R HAYABUSA: Here was our first revelation: Going 190 mph doesn't necessarily mean airbox pressure will be sky-high. Note that the pressure stays below ambient until the Hayabusa reaches 145 mph! It finally peaks at 16mb, but the pressure fluctuates heavily getting there, due to the big 1298cc motor gulping down huge quantities of air. The Hayabusa's cylinder head flows a tremendous amount of air, demonstrated by the motor's incredible 160-horsepower output.[/Quote]
The Busa does not see the benefit because the design cannot deliver enough to provide it.

Article here...
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9910_ram/

you are correct however about the need for a redesigned airbox...

I would personally love to have a delivery system that works more efficiently with less speed required to deliver the charge.

I too have talked with Ken a number of times on different theories... And he's a really good guy but...
let's just say that the Busa has much bigger issues with it's ram air beside the size of the intake tubes.
One thing perhaps overlooked is that if the volume wasn't there...it wouldn't make the kind of power it does. It just cannot pressurize that volume (ideally).
Pressure and volume delivery have to be one step ahead of the intake capacity.


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the more and more I read this...I wonder if "pressure" and "velocity" are being interchanged.

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I don't think that the air box ever sees ANY positive pressure on a STOCK bike. The ram air only provides extra air to feed the engine.

The Kawi's ram air works better because they have the duct work at the center of the nose fairing, where the pressure is highest.
 
(jjmetheny @ Mar. 31 2007,18:27) I had mine like this for most of last summer and it allowed a little more oil to blow out than I cared for.
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I have since added 5-6" of hose to the vent with the filter attached to the end of it and I haven't had any oil blow out since. I would say if you have the stock air box I would just leave it how it is.
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This is the best fix,,, for any set up, by doing this your taking any way any posiblity of any oil being intruduced into the intake! The breather is seperated at this point!!
 
(BusaCruise @ Apr. 07 2007,19:51)
(JINKSTER @ Apr. 07 2007,14:55) Sorry...i just can't buy that theory...i usta work for Pratt & Whitneys large military jet engine R&R/Test Facilty in West Palm Beach, Fl...twice...each time for just under 5 years..and?..had a hand in building lotsa "Flow Rigs" so engineers could test airflow before putting it into actual application and as i understand it?..pressure or vacuum in a sealed contained area doesn't vary from area to area...will there be a "ZONE" where it rapidly decreases at WOT right at the intake mouths of the demanding T-Bodies?....yes...but 99% of the rest of the airboxes internal area will be under an extremely consistant pressure or vacuum level..whatever the case may be..heck..following that train of thought?...is like saying that the air pressure in your tire is greater at the top than it is at the bottom when you're letting air out of the stem....and i just can't buy that..pressure and/or vacumm doesn't vary in a contained area...and?..



Then that "TEST" is null and void if the equipment wasn't up to snuff with the engines operating parameters...alls it proved is they didn't have the appropriate test equipment to be capable of yeilding accurate results right at the most important part of the test...high-end max rpms.

I still think this is worth investigating..i've also spoken with Ken Wheeler (Wheelers Performance) and he claims that the ram-air intake openings simply aren't large enough..which is why a "Small Airbox Mod" really doesn't make sense....amybe for low-mid range torque but not for top-end speed runs..because the AMOUNT of volume that's under pressure is critical to benefiting ram-aire as well....gents?....we may very well need a completely redesigned airbox..one of massively increased volume...JMHO and L8R, Bill.
cool.gif
first of all....my apoligies to anyone that has read my other statement about the air entering the upper half of the box....
the air in fact enters the bottom compartment of the airbox (if you have an OEM style airbox) and then has to be deflected upwards...flow from the center of the air filter outwards and then do a near u-turn to get to the TBs.
Not exactly efficient...but functional



now...unless you worked on a flow rig designed to test our airboxes, you are comparing figs and twigs.
wink.gif


the pressure affects can be different because of the way ours are chambered.  
Take a look at the hondas and kawis... many of theirs have a direct "line of sight" (generally) type path from the intake tubes to the TB intakes.
I think Suzuki was more worried about the volume of air it could provide, opposed to the charging effect they could deliver.

and nothing about our systems is even remotely sealed...
(don't forget the drain holes built into the box and that stupid foam...lol )

if tires were equipped with different chambers...then they too could have the potential for more or less pressure in those partitions.

as for the "test" mentioned....the hardware used functioned just fine for every other machine in the group ...  it's just that in part...the design of the Busa airbox was unable to provide a positive pressure similar to the other bikes, which led it to a "less than ideal" test result.
it still made power...just not the increases seen in the others.
whether it be by intake tube design or airbox design...you still aren't going to create any pressure that would make a hoot's bit of difference to the crankcase breather tube.
here's a snippet from one article...
SUZUKI GSX 1300R HAYABUSA: Here was our first revelation: Going 190 mph doesn't necessarily mean airbox pressure will be sky-high. Note that the pressure stays below ambient until the Hayabusa reaches 145 mph! It finally peaks at 16mb, but the pressure fluctuates heavily getting there, due to the big 1298cc motor gulping down huge quantities of air. The Hayabusa's cylinder head flows a tremendous amount of air, demonstrated by the motor's incredible 160-horsepower output.
The Busa does not see the benefit because the design cannot deliver enough to provide it.

Article here...
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9910_ram/

you are correct however about the need for a redesigned airbox...

I would personally love to have a delivery system that works more efficiently with less speed required to deliver the charge.

I too have talked with Ken a number of times on different theories... And he's a really good guy but...
let's just say that the Busa has much bigger issues with it's ram air beside the size of the intake tubes.
One thing perhaps overlooked is that if the volume wasn't there...it wouldn't make the kind of power it does.  It just cannot pressurize that volume (ideally).  
Pressure and volume delivery have to be one step ahead of the intake capacity.


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[/Quote]
BC...i'm loving this convo man...my thoughts..your historical test info and knowledge...very stimulating and thought provocing....and since my nose fairing is still dismounted on this three day holiday weekend of mine (Thanks To Clear Alternatives Major Screw Up)?...i'm using this opportunity to more closely examine the busas intake ductwork and airbox design....and boy is the ductwork screwed up!
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I've got a bud who's a master mold & model maker (he used to work with me on the large military jet engine R&D)..and now?...he does lotsa custom mold making for glass and cf lay-up..i may speak with him about what would be involved for a full re-design of the airbox/ductwork and nose fairing..while still retaining the same basic aero's.

There's some great info coming out in this thread. Thanks.
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L8R, Bill.
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I capped off my airbox port and rerouted the PAIR line to the PCV line crankcase outlet. I think it is referred to as the "Sucker Mod" that has been posted here. I haven't given any thought to the diameter capacity til now but I do support the idea that the PAIR vacuum can be used to assist the cranckcase evacuation by in effect hooking up a vaccum pump to it (The PAIR). I have seen no ill effects and it does seem to make the bike more responsive (less throttle lag is the best way to try and describe what that means). Also my mileage has improved a bit.
 
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