What's safe and what's not for my engine?

[dane789]

Hi all !!! I've owned a few busas at this point and just took the plunge into the turbo world (I've purchased a velocity stage-one on an '02 that was tuned by EFR RACING) my previous bikes were big bore KZ's and modified busas (nitros mainly) Ive been reading alot on the org about meltdowns and other engine related disasters. I'm sure I will be asking for advice often in the upcomming months before the ridding season begins.

But lets start here..... I've heard alot that high speeds should be considered a "no-no"..... "high speed runs are for naturally aspirated bikes"!!!...... "DONT STAY IN THE BOOST TOO LONG YOU'LL MELT A PISTON"!!!!!! YIKES !!!!

So I guess I'm asking about what is safe for a perfectly tuned turbo engine. can i do a 6th gear "roll on" from say?? 65 mph up to 180 mph without a downshift?? is that staying in the boost to long??? Can I even take it up to 180 mph ?? or does it take too long to reach that high of a speed and forces me to stay in the boost too long?? Also... ater I run it through the gears once or twice, how long should I cruise to let it cool down before I can go into the boost again?? Should I shift at the factory red line on the tach or should I short-shift to keep the RPM's down where it might see less heat??

Mine is a 2002 with stock internals, velocity stage one tuned by Elton @ EFR.
No water injection or intercooler, tuned for 93 octane pumg gas ( 240 hp @ 7 or 8 lbs of boost) I'm planning on using 100 octane fuel thats available at a local gas station as a precaution.

I'm sure I will get different oppinions, thats fine, I'm open to all opinions at this point.

Thanks guys

 

[owens231]

Sounds like you have more money than i had before i started buying and modding bikes!!

good luck...

1 thing, im not hot on turbos/superchargers or nos, as there not really ment to go on the bike in the 1st place, i like keeping things standad, i had a 250ninja with a direct nos import when i brought it from ebay, it was fun, VERY FUN, but it would also over heat due to working to hard, nos was removed, bike was still fun but i knew it would be better, so i started reading about turbos and things, but the overall loss of a turbo and boost, staying in the save zone to save money on repairs just wasnt worth it.

My dad now doesn't ride due to a crash he had that made he think his familys worth more than a 217mph "gps proved" speed thrill. also means he has more money for christmas...

so was my best 1 this year!!!!

 

[megawatt]

I am certainly no expert and these are my limited experience opinions....

Lets see, as far as ....."high speed runs are for naturally aspirated bikes"!!!...... you do understand that bike LSR records are typically made by turbo charged bikes? Your quote is actually pertaining more to stage 1 "stock compression" type of turbo setups. The problem is keeping the turbo compressing and heating up the charge air = detonation = burnt pistons. So the key is to back off once your at the mph you want to or "can" reach.

A 6th gear roll on from 65-180???? Why would you want to? That is kinda like taking off from a stop sign on third gear. There are better gears to start off from. I am guessing your asking if it is safe to be in boost for longer than 8 seconds? I can put it this way, I drag race and from the start I am in boost, then 10 seconds later the race is over having never gotten out of boost. Bike is still running healthy, clutch is wearing down but still not slipping.

I only have 91 octane where I live and I am still going strong. I boost as often as I want and as soon between boost that I want. I think you will be ok with your bike if your already asking these questions.

Last week I took a 120 mile ride and did many 30-150mph boosted runs in the desert highways. Only problem was finding straight roads with no traffic, it was a very exhilarating & fun day.

 

[rocketgeezer]

Hi all !!! I've owned a few busas at this point and just took the plunge into the turbo world (I've purchased a velocity stage-one on an '02 that was tuned by EFR RACING) my previous bikes were big bore KZ's and modified busas (nitros mainly) Ive been reading alot on the org about meltdowns and other engine related disasters. I'm sure I will be asking for advice often in the upcomming months before the ridding season begins.

But lets start here..... I've heard alot that high speeds should be considered a "no-no"..... "high speed runs are for naturally aspirated bikes"!!!...... "DONT STAY IN THE BOOST TOO LONG YOU'LL MELT A PISTON"!!!!!! YIKES !!!!

So I guess I'm asking about what is safe for a perfectly tuned turbo engine. can i do a 6th gear "roll on" from say?? 65 mph up to 180 mph without a downshift?? is that staying in the boost to long??? Can I even take it up to 180 mph ?? or does it take too long to reach that high of a speed and forces me to stay in the boost too long?? Also... ater I run it through the gears once or twice, how long should I cruise to let it cool down before I can go into the boost again?? Should I shift at the factory red line on the tach or should I short-shift to keep the RPM's down where it might see less heat??

Mine is a 2002 with stock internals, velocity stage one tuned by Elton @ EFR.
No water injection or intercooler, tuned for 93 octane pumg gas ( 240 hp @ 7 or 8 lbs of boost) I'm planning on using 100 octane fuel thats available at a local gas station as a precaution.

I'm sure I will get different oppinions, thats fine, I'm open to all opinions at this point.

Thanks guys

lease:Hi dane, you asked a lot of Qs so I will try not to forget anything, first let me say that Elton is a very well respected builder and tuner, so if your setup was tuned to a resonably safe A/F ratio I dont see a problem with hanging it open for a couple of miles anyways, it really depends on the tuneup and fuel quality, a intercooler always helps but with low boost numbers on a street bike sometimes they are not worth the hassel, you did not say specificly what your comp ratio is, stock or lowered, if it is stock 7 - 8 lbs of boost if it really is, is a bit much with stock comp its best to stay with 6lbs max I know it sound like much but your motor will know as far as multiple boosted runs, there again it really depends on the tune up as long as your air/fuel stays safe and you stay out of detonation, let er rip, one thing though rideing a Turbo is a bit differant than a stock bike, even a good running stocker, the best HP numbers anybodys honestly got out of a stocker is 160 give or take a couple a super good tune, pipe, air cleaneryou may get 170+, even a stage1 with a so so tune will get 75 to 100 HP over this thats a bunch, and with the way your talking about rideing it, I would be a little respecful of it, at least for a while I'm going on 5 years with Turbo and a short lapse and to much right hand at the wrong time will put you on your butt, or worse, if it were mine I would get it to a dyno have the boost reset to 6lbs, the fuel map rechecked to 13.5 out of boost and 11.8 when in boost you should be plenty safe with 93 pump gas

 

[PaulCav]

Rocket geezer is absolutely correct with the suggestion of getting it on a dyno and getting your A/F correct. A stage 1 Velocity Turbo runs at 6 lbs of boost. (My set up) Which is what you are at if your HP is 240. (I am at 239 at 6 lb and I run Rtech V110 race fuel.)

I drag race my bike and drive it on the street, on the track I am wide open throttle for 9 seconds and have had no issues. The only time I melted the pistons was when the FMU came off line from the air line which tells the FMU to increase pressure blowing off the plenum. As a result, the fuel pressure did not increase and 3 passes later on the the track the pistons melted. Fortunately, it did not damage the cylinders or head.

I use a Bazzaz controller so I can monitor the A/F after every passes and check it after normal street riding. This way I can always be sure I never run into a lean situation.

My first year I put the Turbo on, I ran it the complete AMA Dragbike season on stock internals. The next year I decided to put in Falicon Knife rods, CP Pistons (Sponsor), APE Billet output shaft, APE Billet clutch basket and Hub, APE everything in the head, Yoshimura Stage 1 cams and studded the whole block. This is complete overkill for what I am running but at least I do not worry about it anymore. If I were just riding the bike on the street like you are I would have not done any of this. For more info if you have not already read my article go here: http://www.dragbike.com/dbnews/anmviewer.asp?a=5337&z=3

Velocity Turbo has done an excellent job building there package for a stock internal bike, they have hundreds of them out there and have plenty of experience. I would not worry about a thing and ride the hell out of it.

Just try and keep your head about you when riding it on the street...

 

[dane789]

thank you for the opinions.....im actually considering getting a water injection set-up as an extra, extra precaution. sooo?? shift points? do most street turbo guys just run it up to red line and shift or short shift at a lower range? how much RPM can the bottom end take with the added power of a turbo?

sorry if i seem a bit paranoid, i just dont want to join the ranks of the group with piles of parts instead of running engines LOL

 

[PaulCav]

thank you for the opinions.....im actually considering getting a water injection set-up as an extra, extra precaution. sooo?? shift points? do most street turbo guys just run it up to red line and shift or short shift at a lower range? how much RPM can the bottom end take with the added power of a turbo?

sorry if i seem a bit paranoid, i just dont want to join the ranks of the group with piles of parts instead of running engines LOL

I was told by Barry Henson of Velocity Turbo that the stock pistons and rods can handle between 250 and 300 HP before things get dicey. Dave Page of Page racing told me they were good to about 250hp. Someone else posted on here they can go up to 450hp. Barry also mentioned the Crank was good up to 700 hp if it has been balanced.

Water injection is always a good insurance policy.

On my set up I hit max HP at 10, 500 RPM's so that is where I shift.

The fact of the matter is, unless you live in Montana or Wyoming, there is really nowhere on the street you are going to be able to hold that beast WFO to blow it up before you run out of room first. If you want to get your speed aggressions out, take it to the track. It makes you ride much more sanely on the street.

 

[Destin07]

Hi all !!! I've owned a few busas at this point and just took the plunge into the turbo world (I've purchased a velocity stage-one on an '02 that was tuned by EFR RACING) my previous bikes were big bore KZ's and modified busas (nitros mainly) Ive been reading alot on the org about meltdowns and other engine related disasters. I'm sure I will be asking for advice often in the upcomming months before the ridding season begins.

But lets start here..... I've heard alot that high speeds should be considered a "no-no"..... "high speed runs are for naturally aspirated bikes"!!!...... "DONT STAY IN THE BOOST TOO LONG YOU'LL MELT A PISTON"!!!!!! YIKES !!!!

So I guess I'm asking about what is safe for a perfectly tuned turbo engine. can i do a 6th gear "roll on" from say?? 65 mph up to 180 mph without a downshift?? is that staying in the boost to long??? Can I even take it up to 180 mph ?? or does it take too long to reach that high of a speed and forces me to stay in the boost too long?? Also... ater I run it through the gears once or twice, how long should I cruise to let it cool down before I can go into the boost again?? Should I shift at the factory red line on the tach or should I short-shift to keep the RPM's down where it might see less heat??

Mine is a 2002 with stock internals, velocity stage one tuned by Elton @ EFR.
No water injection or intercooler, tuned for 93 octane pumg gas ( 240 hp @ 7 or 8 lbs of boost) I'm planning on using 100 octane fuel thats available at a local gas station as a precaution.

I'm sure I will get different oppinions, thats fine, I'm open to all opinions at this point.

Thanks guys

If it was me I wouldn't be "guessing" what is safe and what is not. Intercool the bike or add a water injection setup to make it safer. I would stay completely out of top end runs like it is setup. I'm not sure how safe the 65-180 roll is but I bet it blow up. thats a whole long time to roll on into a stage 1 kit and a big load on the engine

 

[Destin07]

I was told by Barry Henson of Velocity Turbo that the stock pistons and rods can handle between 250 and 300 HP before things get dicey. Dave Page of Page racing told me they were good to about 250hp. Someone else posted on here they can go up to 450hp. Barry also mentioned the Crank was good up to 700 hp if it has been balanced.

Water injection is always a good insurance policy.

On my set up I hit max HP at 10, 500 RPM's so that is where I shift.

The fact of the matter is, unless you live in Montana or Wyoming, there is really nowhere on the street you are going to be able to hold that beast WFO to blow it up before you run out of room first. If you want to get your speed aggressions out, take it to the track. It makes you ride much more sanely on the street.

Stock pistons have hell to 400HP+, stock rods usually go after 275HP.......there are 100,000,000 places to go extremely fast on the street WOT in 6th gear on a turbo bike. Every interstate in the united states is A-OKAY for top gear turbo pulls

 

[OZBooster]

Tune,fuel quality, stability of the boost level and stability of fuel pressures is what will keep a std engine alive,
a let down in any one of these will melt pistons and most times do cyl damage,
internal wastgate systems can boost creep, 6 psi becomes 8-9 psi on a long hard run and damage occurs, same with fmu systems, some pump/fmu combinations can't hold stable hi pressure over an extended period, leanout and again damage
good rich tuneup and good quality hi octaine fuel will help reduce the risks,

 

[PaulCav]

If it was me I wouldn't be "guessing" what is safe and what is not. Intercool the bike or add a water injection setup to make it safer. I would stay completely out of top end runs like it is setup. I'm not sure how safe the 65-180 roll is but I bet it blow up. thats a whole long time to roll on into a stage 1 kit and a big load on the engine

Destin,

IMO water injecton or an intercooler are not needed. If they were, Velocity Turbo would be recommending it with every Stage 1 kit. As I stated before I ran the my Stage 1 turbo bike WFO for a whole year, with over 175 passes on stock internals and had no issues.

He is only running the kit at 6 lbs of boost and these engines are very capable of handling 240hp. They only thing I would strongly recommend is that he puts the bike on a dyno and has a fuel map made for the bike so as not to run it lean.

 

[Destin07]

Destin,

IMO water injecton or an intercooler are not needed. If they were, Velocity Turbo would be recommending it with every Stage 1 kit. As I stated before I ran the my Stage 1 turbo bike WFO for a whole year, with over 175 passes on stock internals and had no issues.

He is only running the kit at 6 lbs of boost and these engines are very capable of handling 240hp. They only thing I would strongly recommend is that he puts the bike on a dyno and has a fuel map made for the bike so as not to run it lean.

yeah keep listening to Velocity and then when you blow that **** up all over the road take it to them and see what they say.....keyword being 175 PASSES....not WOT top end down the interstate.....IT WILL MELT DOWN LIKE A SNOWMAN IN THE SAHARA DESERT. You are correct 6lb is all gravy but hes talking about 60-180 rollons which its not going to live through

 

[megawatt]

If it was me I wouldn't be "guessing" what is safe and what is not. Intercool the bike or add a water injection setup to make it safer. ...

Intercool the bike when it is only a 6# boost and street riding? You make it sound so easy to spend someone elses money for excessive insurance just to run 6#? You want him to go add $1200 for an air to air intercooler?

Your suggestion is to throw lots of money and add more complexity to a simple stage 1 system and increase his intro to turbo experience by adding 25% to his cost. Sure you could but I figure its unnecessary insurance.

I ride 6# here in Nevada desert, no intercooler here but I did add a BOV. I think he will be riding in a manner that his engine will be fine with the stock stage 1 kit and its suggested parts.

Did you add an intercooler on your bike for 6#?

 

[trefling]

I never see any mention of EGT's. You can have correct AFR's all day long but if your EGT's are too high you'll melt everything down on extended long runs. You can essentially tune your EGT's with a water injection kits jets for just that purpose.

Aluminum melts around 1200 degree. Now yes you can run it higher but it's just like putting your hand in a hot over. You can do it for a short time but leave it there too long and you'll get burnt or in this case melt.

Since it only takes our bikes roughly 8 seconds to reach almost 190 mph that is often not a problem for most of us assuming we are in a proper AFR range

But for the open mile guys (regardless of cars of bikes) you would want to keep the EGT's a little below 1200 degrees. This can be difficult to do but with intercooled charge boost and water/methanol injection it can be done. Once that is achieve you can keep the throttle pinned about as long as you want till you run out of gas.

I don't know why this concept is not more universally understood.

 

[Destin07]

Intercool the bike when it is only a 6# boost and street riding? You make it sound so easy to spend someone elses money for excessive insurance just to run 6#? You want him to go add $1200 for an air to air intercooler?

Your suggestion is to throw lots of money and add more complexity to a simple stage 1 system and increase his intro to turbo experience by adding 25% to his cost. Sure you could but I figure its unnecessary insurance.

I ride 6# here in Nevada desert, no intercooler here but I did add a BOV. I think he will be riding in a manner that his engine will be fine with the stock stage 1 kit and its suggested parts.

Did you add an intercooler on your bike for 6#?

Maybe you should go back and read the post the guy is already trying to figure out if he can run WOT in 6th on top rollons and even talking about letting out of the rpms early to reduce heat hahaha yeah right anybody who has ever ridden a turbo bike knows it's impossible to not beat the crap out of them..... Just the way he's approaching the situation tells you he's ready to have some fast fun. Even if running 6lb with no intercooler or water injection he can easily melt it down with that riding style....or maybe he should just tune it fat and run $75 tanks of c16.... I think not. Take a look around a/a can be found far less than $1200. I'm simply telling the guy like it is.... I'm about 100% sure Richard would tell him the same. If he wants to not turn up the boost and stay out of top end then 6lb should do him fine and I bet it would go 30k trouble free miles. I don't live in Vegas but I've seen more than a few stage 1 bikes melt pistons and blow head gaskets from 6lb street riding with good tunes. And no I didn't intercool my Bike for 6lb......I ran 40lb and figured it was required

 

[Mr Brown]

Sounds like you have more money than i had before i started buying and modding bikes!!

good luck...

1 thing, im not hot on turbos/superchargers or nos, as there not really ment to go on the bike in the 1st place, i like keeping things standad, i had a 250ninja with a direct nos import when i brought it from ebay, it was fun, VERY FUN, but it would also over heat due to working to hard, nos was removed, bike was still fun but i knew it would be better, so i started reading about turbos and things, but the overall loss of a turbo and boost, staying in the save zone to save money on repairs just wasnt worth it.

My dad now doesn't ride due to a crash he had that made he think his familys worth more than a 217mph "gps proved" speed thrill. also means he has more money for christmas...

so was my best 1 this year!!!!

STFU. You're ignorant. You just spoke about a Ninja 250 with spray... Moron. You're father is as retarded as you are I'm sure, or perhaps it's your mother that carries the genes for stupidity....