Ready to turbo

[suzuki4life]

Chart says 308 that's why I said 12lbs.

And your right about the rods. If you want to push things over 330 to 340 HP then you need rods and pistons.

yep sorry...I misread it.....but still....300+ varies from 12-14 lbs to make that output.

Defintely need rods if you go over 320 hp
and pistons if you expect to go over 400 hp...


BUT if you're opening the engine.....you might as well add the psitons with the rods IMHO>

 

[clrwtrbusa]

Valium, You are right. Tinkering can get ya in trouble. All I do to mine is regular oil changes, tighten here and there and ride.
The LM-1 is a good way to go. Even here in Fl, with 90 degree+ days all summer and max humidity, mine runs great. I can leave here and go to North Carolina, 3200 ft above sea level and other than running a little rich, no problems.

Sorry to cost ya the cash. Yep, carbon is addictive. I finally added the last piece to mine and it is done.....for now.
I'm still going with the BST wheels for the final finishing touches, but that will be later on.

 

[Jailer]

My input on any kit.

intercooling versus whatever.

If it is a street bike....I'd personally go with water injection if I had to do it all over again. Why? Because the intercooler is an added expense and risk that IMHO is unneeded for street usage.

300hp can be used on the street. I have been told that 400-450 is well beyond useful at all because of how you need to pick and choose when you can possibly use it. For that reason alone I try to sway people away from believing they need 400+ hp. There are MANY options in getting 300-320 hp which accomplishes many goals.
1. it maxes out your stock engine's capabilities. YES if you run straight race gas you can run 300hp through an entirely stock engine. It has been proven and done. (YES EVEN WITH STOCK INJECTORS!!!)
2. very much added expense. Difference between safe and building a motor can range simply by 70-80 hp. Remember....$1000 for rods, $500 for pistons etc etc etc...it adds up quick. My question to anyone is...if you feel the added expense is worth it for 70-80 hp....why stop there? A 500 hp kit is basically the same as a 400hp kit except a larger turbo. Whether or not they want to admit it...they cost the same to build if they want them to.



If I am building a "practical" turbo bike...

I would look in a hybred down sized kit much like a Velcoity race kit IMHO.

Qualities I'd want:
external wastegate
standalone fuel controller
fuel system which replaces the OEM injectors NOT 5th injectors, piggybacks or secondaries.
A turbo which can flow a max 400hp.
water injection OR if your budget allows...water to air intercooling.

There are 2 problems with what you suggest. Don't get me wrong they are all very good suggestions and I agree with you. But, valium is looking for boost with low maintenance. Water injection is not the way to go for low maintenance. An intercooler once installed has no further maintenance involved. Water injection has more parts, more complication and continuous filling of the water tank. More mechanical parts means more chance of parts failure. I've never been a fan of water injection for a street bike for this very reason. Water injection has it's place but I don't think that place is a street bike. That is just MY opinion. And for someone else that doesn't want to end up with a bike that they are constantly keeping an eye on an intercooler is a better way to go.

As far a larger injectors go I think that is too much for what he is looking for. Larger injectors have they're own tuning problems and can be a bear at lower RPM's because of the lower fuel pressure you must run to make them drivable. Atomisation becomes an issue at low duty cycle and low fuel pressures. A secondary controller with 4 additional injectors offers the best fuel control and cylinder to cylinder consistancy for on boost conditions as well as maintaining good drivability off boost that he is looking for. And like I said if secondaries push the limits of the budget, I would choose the intercooler and stick with the FMU that comes with the kit.

Please disregard all spelling errors in this post or any others that I make. I went out in the first round of every spelling bee I ever entered in school and it shows.

 

[TURBO1320]

No matter what you want it all can be up graded in the future, We will have a standalone that will plug into the stock wiring harness, We are also working on a space age Amodel composite polmer intake manifold that wont absorb heat like what we use now, It will be perfect inside and out.I would like to try to make the intake runners longer for more TQ we will half to wait and see.Also we will have our own waste gates,And BOVs along with our own FMUs that wont stick or flutter.And im trying a new MAP sensor that will hook to the power camander so we can map by manifold pressure not TPS,Any thing can be done as long as you have some one on the phone that cares about your project, But first of all ask your self what do need and what do you have to have,safety is number one in my book before HP if its my Bike then I will take that chance with my own stuff but I will not do it with yours,If some one Buys a Turbo kit from me I will give them a smoken Deal on any parts they need to get there Bike Running,Pistons,rods,studs,Tranny,Clutch,Head work,Cams But I cant post what kind of Deal you get you have to PM me or Call 541-389-9938,Burt HERE IS A GT40/88 THAT JUST WENT OUT THE DOOR HE WILL POST SOON HP TOO MUCH!!! HOW FAST WILL THE BIKE GO?? WELL HES GOING FOR 262MPH + THIS IS ONE SICK DUDE!!!

 

[Jailer]

I'm real curious about the map sensor you're looking into. Sounds very interesting and a totally different approach than what has been taken so far.

When you say a standalone do you mean something that piggybacks similar to a powercommander or a controller for a set of secondary injectors that works along side with the stockers?

 

[TURBO1320]

THIS IS MY LITTLE 500HP+ TURBO ON THE SAME MOCK UP MOTOR, THIS TURBO IS BIGGER THAN THEY USE IN OUTLAW ON THE EAST COAST.

 

[TURBO1320]

I'm real curious about the map sensor you're looking into. Sounds very interesting and a totally different approach than what has been taken so far.

When you say a standalone do you mean something that piggybacks similar to a powercommander or a controller for a set of secondary injectors that works along side with the stockers?

You take your ECU unplug it and put it on the shelf,Plug this one in and you are going,LOW or HIGH inpedance injectors,up to 10 injectors ,turn on shift light ,Nos,Water injection,Data Logging,Wide band, You do need to run down a give your bike a tune up but you have every thing in your control to do it with out tearing up your wiring,Burt

 

[TURBO1320]

I'm real curious about the map sensor you're looking into. Sounds very interesting and a totally different approach than what has been taken so far.

When you say a standalone do you mean something that piggybacks similar to a powercommander or a controller for a set of secondary injectors that works along side with the stockers?

We unplug the TPS and wire in a MAP sensor so we can tune by manifold pressure, and 1:1 fuel pressure and put some 380cc injestors,Any thing is better than a FMU,Burt

 

[suzuki4life]

My input on any kit.

intercooling versus whatever.

If it is a street bike....I'd personally go with water injection if I had to do it all over again. Why? Because the intercooler is an added expense and risk that IMHO is unneeded for street usage.

300hp can be used on the street. I have been told that 400-450 is well beyond useful at all because of how you need to pick and choose when you can possibly use it. For that reason alone I try to sway people away from believing they need 400+ hp. There are MANY options in getting 300-320 hp which accomplishes many goals.
1. it maxes out your stock engine's capabilities. YES if you run straight race gas you can run 300hp through an entirely stock engine. It has been proven and done. (YES EVEN WITH STOCK INJECTORS!!!)
2. very much added expense. Difference between safe and building a motor can range simply by 70-80 hp. Remember....$1000 for rods, $500 for pistons etc etc etc...it adds up quick. My question to anyone is...if you feel the added expense is worth it for 70-80 hp....why stop there? A 500 hp kit is basically the same as a 400hp kit except a larger turbo. Whether or not they want to admit it...they cost the same to build if they want them to.



If I am building a "practical" turbo bike...

I would look in a hybred down sized kit much like a Velcoity race kit IMHO.

Qualities I'd want:
external wastegate
standalone fuel controller
fuel system which replaces the OEM injectors NOT 5th injectors, piggybacks or secondaries.
A turbo which can flow a max 400hp.
water injection OR if your budget allows...water to air intercooling.

There are 2 problems with what you suggest. Don't get me wrong they are all very good suggestions and I agree with you. But, valium is looking for boost with low maintenance. Water injection is not the way to go for low maintenance. An intercooler once installed has no further maintenance involved. Water injection has more parts, more complication and continuous filling of the water tank. More mechanical parts means more chance of parts failure. I've never been a fan of water injection for a street bike for this very reason. Water injection has it's place but I don't think that place is a street bike. That is just MY opinion. And for someone else that doesn't want to end up with a bike that they are constantly keeping an eye on an intercooler is a better way to go.

As far a larger injectors go I think that is too much for what he is looking for. Larger injectors have they're own tuning problems and can be a bear at lower RPM's because of the lower fuel pressure you must run to make them drivable. Atomisation becomes an issue at low duty cycle and low fuel pressures. A secondary controller with 4 additional injectors offers the best fuel control and cylinder to cylinder consistancy for on boost conditions as well as maintaining good drivability off boost that he is looking for. And like I said if secondaries push the limits of the budget, I would choose the intercooler  and stick with the FMU that comes with the kit.

Please disregard all spelling errors in this post or any others that I make. I went out in the first round of every spelling bee I ever entered in school and it shows.

Well having owned 4 different types of these kits including one with an air to air intercooler.....I'll tell you this.

No kit tucks the intercooler any closer than the MCXpress kit with the 40mm intercooler. For "safety" reasons many people suggested: heavier fork springs, a raked frame, a smaller tire AND you need to cut a big hunk off the back of you fender to boot.

Yes intercooling makes sense in theory. BUT, in reality you don't go through as much water as people would think. The average water injection system requires you to add water AT BEST with every fill up. Considering you can now lower your bike without risk and you remove any chance of the front tire hitting an intercooler (a possible $1000+ mistake), I'd personally remove the intercooler myself.


As injectors go, That is a problem of choice not application. Basically guys were trying to go stupid/cheap and bought too big of injectors. Yes the guys who bought S2000 injectors and tried to make them work had problems. BUT if they would had bought injectors the right size (ie: 310cc injectors instead of the 340cc S2000 injectors) they would had no problems. I suggest people who choose to go with the better/larger injector search out the usage of Honda CBR1100 XX blackbird injectors or ask Ninja Eater who successfully uses them in his Hahn kit along with water injection that have been inuse now for YEARS. As for large injectors having tuning problems....I suggest you ask Barry Henson or ANY velocity race system owner about their problems with tuning. Many of those kits are street ridden and many of them are also record holders.....not too bad of results for kits designed to have all of these problems huh?

Have a secondary injector or system go(es) bad...and your system goes lean.....BOOM!!!!! Replace your primaries.....and have one of them stop working.....the cylinder gets no fuel and becomes a dead cylinder....no harm no foul.

 

[sageronin]

Nice Chart!

After looking at your chart, it looks like Torque starts to kick in around 4000 rpm, and keeps climbing to 7000 rpm...but how is the torque under 4K ? And the HP begins to climb nicely between 4k and 6k, but again, how is performance below 4K?

Did you run a spacer on the modified stage 1, and or intercooler? And what about the FMU? Was performance as good or better than stock below 4K rpm? Ive heard a few guys say a Turbo Stage 1 can be a dog in the lower rpm's.....and was curious to your input since you are living with the beast on a day to day basis.

Thanks,

Under 4k it runs smooth and strong just like a stock Busa. Dennis does a great job tuning and the throttle response is smooth. Definitely NOT a dog under 4k. Yes running in intercooler, spacer, and secondaries. The turbo spools up fast but smoothly.

 

[sageronin]

If I had to guess just looking sageronin's chart I would say stg1 plus:

spacer
intercooler
12lb spring
fuel system mods (5th injector, bigger injectors, or secondaries)

How close am I?  

As far as how they run down low depends on how close your tuning is and whether or not your running stock or lowered compression. I've had both so I'll share my experience.

With stock compression and a really good low speed tune, drivability will be near stock. I say near stock because you will lose the small amount of added tq down low from the flapper in the stock airbox that you deep six when you install the turbo. It still accelerates nicely and has sharp throttle resonse like a stock bike though. With lowered compression it is slower to rev off boost from the tq loss due to lowered compression. It still runs decent from being a large displacement motor, but lacks the response and snap of the stock compression bike. The payoff though is the ability to safely run more boost for more power and a harder hit when the turbo comes on boost.

Think of it like this. Stock compression and lower boost (like a stg1) still runs sharp off bost and when it comes on it is a nice controlled rush of power. It can actually be decieving how quickly you are building speed because the power comes on very smoothly.  Lowered compression and more boost is a little lazy down low until the boost comes on, but when it does it comes on strong and feels like you've been propelled from a slingshot. Very cool and very addictive but depnding on what type of riding you do can be a bit more of a chalenge to ride. Try 12lbs of boost with stock gearing and a stock wheelbase at the dragstrip and you will know what I mean by a challenge.

It all depends on what you are looking for and how much you can afford.

You're right on ...

Intercooler
Spacer
14 lb spring
Secondaries

 

[Jailer]

Just out of curiosity, how much did the secondaries cost you?

 

[MN72Busa]

Well last night I got to talking to Vic on the phone for a little while, and the Turbo-topic came up. Now Vic brought up a valid concern, and I haven't read much about this issue, so let me ask it here. Since we are having to remove the oil-cooler from the bike, what keeps the oil temps low? I realize in a Drag bike making 400 or 500+ HP, these people change their oil, clutch plates, and go over everything on the bike very often & sometimes change these things out inbetween races, but what about the average guy.

The point that Vic was making is that a Turbo may reduce the life of the engine as the oil cooling has been reduced due to the lack of an oil-cooler on a Turbo bike. Yes the bike may last 40 or 50 thousand miles without an oil cooler, but maybe the bike would have lasted 100,000 miles with an oil cooler. Is this a valid concern, is there a solution to this issue, and is reduced engine life on a turbo bike just something a person should expect, and just deal with the reality that if you want more HP, you give up engine life?

 

[clrwtrbusa]

Since we are having to remove the oil-cooler from the bike, what keeps the oil temps low?

The point that Vic was making is that a Turbo may reduce the life of the engine as the oil cooling has been reduced due to the lack of an oil-cooler on a Turbo bike.

Not sure about the system you are looking at, but I still have my oil cooler installed. That is something I would not remove here in the Fl. heat, especially in the summertime traffic. You may need to install a fan switch to make the fan run all the time, or at least you can turn it on when the temps start to rise.

 

[suzuki4life]

Well last night I got to talking to Vic on the phone for a little while, and the Turbo-topic came up. Now Vic brought up a valid concern, and I haven't read much about this issue, so let me ask it here. Since we are having to remove the oil-cooler from the bike, what keeps the oil temps low? I realize in a Drag bike making 400 or 500+ HP, these people change their oil, clutch plates, and go over everything on the bike very often & sometimes change these things out inbetween races, but what about the average guy.

The point that Vic was making is that a Turbo may reduce the life of the engine as the oil cooling has been reduced due to the lack of an oil-cooler on a Turbo bike. Yes the bike may last 40 or 50 thousand miles without an oil cooler, but maybe the bike would have lasted 100,000 miles with an oil cooler. Is this a valid concern, is there a solution to this issue, and is reduced engine life on a turbo bike just something a person should expect, and just deal with the reality that if you want more HP, you give up engine life?

I'll add a real simple answer....


If you run a turbo...you run synthetic oil.

Synthetic oil does NOT react to heat in the same temp range nor in the same manner fossil fuel does.

Your biggest problem will be dirt and contaminates in the oil from the extra blow by a turbo causes..

changing your oil at or before 2000 miles will cure that.


I haven't ran an oil cooler on ANY of my turbo bikes NOR my last 6 big bore bikes...never a problem.

 

[Vic_E55_2001]

We`ve been talking about that.

Thermal brakedown for mineral oil ~ 210-215F
Best synth oils ~240-242F

synth is a must anyway.

 

[MN72Busa]

Strech, Yawn....ok Coffee is brewed, and time for my first smoke of the day.

Synthctic oil has been run in my bike since my 2nd oil change, and been running Amsoil synth for the last 6 changes - so I guess my bases are covered there. clrwtrbusa, good to know your still running an oil-cooler, as are a few other guys. Now S4L does not run oil-coolers & has had no issues....I guess my question now for you S4L, why do you not run oil-coolers if the systems you have used allows you enough room to run one?

Has anyone (And Im sure the answer is yes) ran an oil temp monitioring unit? And what is the average oil temps you seen under boost at low and high rpm? And do you notice one oil being better than another? I know Synth oil is a must to run, but some brands have differnt blends of additives such as Boron...is one additive more desirable than another in Turbo situations?

And back to the water-cooling / Intercooler decision. Im not drag racing, so front tire clearence will never be an issue for me. S4L you stated there are risks at running an intercooler on the street, can you please elaborate a little for me on this topic - your input is much appreciated.

So far this thread has been one of the best threads I've read on basic turbo questions, and really want to thank everyone for their input and knowledge. I appreciate all the PM's and help...Its nice to have some of the Best turbo heads out there here on this thread responding to my question - thanks for all your patience.

 

[Jailer]

The biggest worry about running an intercooler on the street is smacking the front wheel into the cooler when it returns to the ground from a wheelie. A lot of guys that ran mcxpress systems early on found this out the hard way. It won't smash the cooler, but the tire will rub it when it bottoms out and eventualy rub through. If I'm not mistaken, the newer mcxpress kits have a rub plate welded to them in this area now. Not sure on any of the other kits if they have taken this precaution. S4L was right too, you will have to trim off some of the back of the front fender for clearance. You could also lower the front fender as an option.

Oh and trust me, you'll be doing a lot of wheelies with a turbo and stock wheelbase whether you want to or not.

 

[sageronin]

Oh and trust me, you'll be doing a lot of wheelies with a turbo and stock wheelbase whether you want to or not.  

True that ... I'm a witness!!

 

[TURBO1320]

I have relocater plates to mount your Oil cooler to the right side RAD if you think you want to do that,Burt