Net Neutrality your thoughts

I don't truely know where I stand, so hopefully some of you can help me.

No control of the internet means that my access to information can be blocked or sensored. Some people say that a free market would allow me to "take my business elsewhere". This sounds good but also has some problems.

1. what if don't know I am being sensored? If the only "news"(hahahah) channel I was alloewd to watch was MSNBC, how would I know that Olbermann and Maddow are bleeding heart liberals that would lie to my face if it supported thier political views?
2. what if the alternative is too expensive and I cannot afford it?
3. what if it is unavailable to me, for any reason at all....

the 1st ammendment was about the people access to information, a free press. This is the same only in reverse.

***on the other hand, we all know what happens when the Gov. gets involved, things get screwed up.
 
Most likely, you and I sir stand diametrically opposed on every social, political and religious debate, so I suspect we will just have to agree to disagree on darn near everything.

cheers
Your liberal, atheist, feminist, net neutrality favoring, socialist Canadian Internet northern friend.

:beerchug::laugh:

ken


If we all agreed on everything what a boring place this would be... in the end you and I may disagree on a lot of things but that doesn't make either one of us bad or wrong we just think differently.. I bet if you stuck us both at a table and locked us in a room we would laugh until they let us out.....

No problem here sir...
 
The idea that if you don't like it, don't pay for it works beautifully when there's competition+choice in the marketplace, and for much of the country, there isn't an honest competitive choice. I live in Los Angeles and have essentially one choice (Time Warner) for internet service that doesn't involve getting a T1 line or a microwave antenna. If TW wants to raise my rates by 50% tomorrow or introduce a tiered system that will limit my usage of the internet unless I pay more, I really have no choice but to pay, or simply disconnect. That's not an efficient market - it's pretty much a monopoly.

I'm all for net neutrality, for the simple reason that I think that that all data should be of equal importance on the network.

The FCC order is mixed. It ultimately doesn't protect a free and open internet, doesn't protect neutrality over mobile broadband, and doesn't ban bandwidth prioritization. As with everything the gov't deals with, it's gonna be a long slog.

Those very lack of choices is what will foster growth... The competition will move into that area when they see that the market is ripe... The customers should decide not our govt...
 
It's a terrible idea, pushed by media lobbyists in the interest of ultimately controlling bandwidth and turning the internet into a virtual toll-road.

Steve Wozniak (co-founder of Apple) has a great essay regarding this.

Unimpeded, we're headed toward this:

ISP's have been doing something similiar to this since the beginning of the Internet as we know it....

How many of you pay for different speed levels? You get throttled bandwidth which is determined by how much you pay... How many of you that have websites pay for different services, firewall, bandwidth allotments, processor performance.....

How many of you ever used AOL where you paid for time one the internet by minutes... Those were all metered services, if you didn't like it you went to someone else...

The Internet is not free, someone has to pay for all that copper and fiber going from your house to the servers.... Someone has to manage the switches, routers and backbone.... Access to the Internet is not a right... I do find it ironic that the govt wants to keep ISP's from filtering what you see and can access unless you pay a fee but at the same time charge every citizen that goes to a national park an entry fee... ever tried to get to Mt. Rushmore? How about Yellowstone... You would think that if there were ever something that US citizens had a right to see without charge it would be our very US land.....

hrmmmm
 
Most likely, you and I sir stand diametrically opposed on every social, political and religious debate, so I suspect we will just have to agree to disagree on darn near everything.

cheers
Your liberal, atheist, feminist, net neutrality favoring, socialist Canadian Internet northern friend.

:beerchug::laugh:

ken

If we all agreed on everything what a boring place this would be... in the end you and I may disagree on a lot of things but that doesn't make either one of us bad or wrong we just think differently.. I bet if you stuck us both at a table and locked us in a room we would laugh until they let us out.....

No problem here sir...


YOU BOTH RIDE BUSAS AND THINK ITS THE GREATEST BIKE ON EARTH SO THATS ONE THING YOU AGREE ON....:poke: :laugh:

:moon:
 
I guess I'll have to wait and see. Today, I have plenty of choices when it comes to ISPs. If I don't like what one does, I'll move to another. However, in a few months when I move...well, there aren't that many choices. In fact, today, dialup is the only choice - not even satellite will work. Well, I guess I could pay through the a$$ for an air card, but even then coverage is spotty out in the sticks.

Further, my job requires me to have high-speed access...and they DON'T reimburse for it; they EXPECT employees to have high-speed access (go figure, you work for an IT company and they expect it).

Oh well, I'm already getting the :moon: with my new health insurance...may as well tack this on, too. :2cents:
 
If we all agreed on everything what a boring place this would be... in the end you and I may disagree on a lot of things but that doesn't make either one of us bad or wrong we just think differently.. I bet if you stuck us both at a table and locked us in a room we would laugh until they let us out.....

No problem here sir...


The only thing I know for sure is, if they are serving drinks at this hypothetical table the only reason I'll be let out is because you'll be under it.

:drink: :40__s: :muscle: :laugh:

cheers
ken
 
Those very lack of choices is what will foster growth... The competition will move into that area when they see that the market is ripe... The customers should decide not our govt...

We're talking about two different things - we agree on one (data priority), and not the other (ISP availabilty + control).

Customers should decide, not the government. They should keep the 'net the way it is - neutral data priority. In the long run, I don't want the media coming from motogp.com throttled down because a larger part of the pipe is reserved for Oprah.* The gov't should NOT decide that they're going to control the bandwidth like they do the airwaves, since they aren't comparable (radio spectrum is physically limited, bandwidth is theoretically infinite.) A provider's potential bandwidth should be defined by the amount of servers + connectivity they are willing to afford - not because the government is going to allow them to buy part of the backbone at the expense of others. If a content provider creates and provides content that enough people want and are willing to pay for, then they can upgrade their capabilities and serve more customers efficiently - that's a free market at work.

Immense media companies (Disney, Viacom, Google et.al.) are seeking gov't intervention, and are spending incredible amounts of $$ lobbying for the easing of neutrality - and that's a really slippery slope.


As for lack of choices, if in this case we're talking about internet access, we run into the extremely expensive (financially and politically) "last mile" problem. I'm willing to bet that within a mile of my house there's potential access to an ultra-fast fiber connection, but I can't access it, since nobody (ATT or Time Warner) is willing to pay the expense of laying the fiber to the thousands of homes in my area - it simply isn't worth it - they wouldn't make that money back for a very long time, unless they raised rates astronomically, which would incite a consumer revolt. No other company is going to fix this....so we're stuck in this ironic position where we have a finite amount of bandwidth coming into our homes, and these companies are trying to control how that bandwidth is used...but this would all likely be moot if we had far more bandwidth coming into our homes in the first place...

So where can the lack of choices foster growth in this case? It's really tough.

If it's too expensive for even ATT or TW to be willing to open manhole covers and wire everyone up to faster connections with fiber, then another option is a non-physical connection...and then we're dealing with radio spectrum, which they're also lobbying the gov't to put further controls on.

My personal potential solution (that only works in my locale): I know that I can get a microwave line-of-sight connection to a service that can provide multiple T1 amounts of bandwidth. It's too expensive for one homeowner, but if I could get enough people on my block to go in on it, it could be do-able...we just have to get around running multiple CAT6 lines down the block somehow :laugh: Weird as it sounds, it's at least a potential option...but I'm in a city where this service is available, and there's enough density to find a big enough group to do it. In more rural areas, it's unworkable.

If the gov't is going to do something, they should tell the media companies that they're going to do nothing. The internet is going to stay the way it is, and if the media companies want to compete, they need to compete on a level playing field and let the consumer decide what they want and are willing to pay for.

* No disrespect to Oprah fans, but I'd rather watch Stoner with a 45 second lead for 22 laps and a token fight for fifth place...
 
I guess I'll have to wait and see. Today, I have plenty of choices when it comes to ISPs.

Man, you're lucky. I'm in a city of 10 million people and have one single ISP to choose from...and they really suck.
 
depends on how its structured?

as it is you can walk into an Internet cafe and purchase limited connections for a small fee..

if what they are proposing is the same, as in, what I pay now is the "unlimited" tier and others can pay much less for something like facebook and e-mail access thats all good..

but I suspect thats not the case, my guess? this is just an attempt to totally milk consumers for total access to the web and has nothing to do with anything other than satisfying the greedy communication conglomerates and raising rates dramatically, but whats new, utilities have been bleeding Americans dry since day one,

you want to heal a recession lower and cap utilities, don't raise them ???
 
I guess I'll have to wait and see. Today, I have plenty of choices when it comes to ISPs. If I don't like what one does, I'll move to another. However, in a few months when I move...well, there aren't that many choices. In fact, today, dialup is the only choice - not even satellite will work. Well, I guess I could pay through the a$$ for an air card, but even then coverage is spotty out in the sticks.

Further, my job requires me to have high-speed access...and they DON'T reimburse for it; they EXPECT employees to have high-speed access (go figure, you work for an IT company and they expect it).

Oh well, I'm already getting the :moon: with my new health insurance...may as well tack this on, too. :2cents:

Moving to an area with "dial-up".

My most sincere condolences brother.:bowdown:

Rubb.
 
The technology is there now.... If you have electricity then you can have high speed Internet. Don't let anyone kid you that the technology doesn't exist... The last mile is the problem in most cases with all customers.... You have distance limitations with DSL from the CO and who wants to run a cable down a 1/2 mile of road just for one customer.....

here is a link that talks about BPL LINK TO BPL

In the end the last thing we need is a group that can't manage what they have in the simplist terms to manage a very complex solution like the Internet.. The only reason people want in is to get a hold for taxes... Nothing more, nothing less.... I would venture to guess that 99% of the congress or decision makers have no idea how the Internet works or how all the peices fit together but yet they want to jump in and call the shots...
 
Well here is my thoughts on this.

1. This could be a good thing given the ISPs decide to be greedy.

2. This could be a bad thing since the Government always messes things up when they get involved.

3. If more companies would move away from the G.983 and move to the G.984, which is both APON and BPON combined they would benefit from the higher speeds, security and layer protocols.

4. FTTN like most companies have can also be causing most the issues. In which can cause a "bottle neck" in the network due to the service area for each node. If they would move more towards FTTH they would in fact come closer to resolving the "Last Mile" issue.

5. It would be nice to see everyone using WDM to its fullest potential or heck even half its potential and there would be no need to throttle anything. Not sure on the number of fibers in a bundle but at a possible 160 channels per fiber and 111Gbps having been reached per channel. Its the greed of men that is causing this ruckus.

I am sure there are more things I can think about but that is my list. If 3 and 4 were done then neither 1 nor 2 would be needed and maybe not even brought up.

Sorry about the sorta long writeup. I may be mistaken on some of my info but I believe its pretty darn accurate.




Ahhhhhh... I love you Lav:laugh::laugh:

This si the oNLY point I will aggree with here...except Ken's point cause he gave me popcorn:laugh:
 
The technology is there now.... If you have electricity then you can have high speed Internet. Don't let anyone kid you that the technology doesn't exist... The last mile is the problem in most cases with all customers.... You have distance limitations with DSL from the CO and who wants to run a cable down a 1/2 mile of road just for one customer.....

here is a link that talks about BPL LINK TO BPL

Why do you suppose this hasn't been made available yet? If you get DSL, wouldn't it seem likely that you could get BPL?
 
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Why do you suppose this hasn't been made available yet?

For years the cable and phone companies have been lobbying against this technology, why you ask? This technology would offer people internet, phone, TV and other things over the same wire that brings you electricity, one stop shopping.....

The funny thing is this... Years ago it was the phone companies that were lobbying against cable and Internet because they knew the technologies were out there that would allow things like VOIP. The cable companies won out, how many of you have your phones with your internet provider these days and have left ATT or any other of the Bells completely....

What you see now is the phone and cable companies lobbying against BPL because they know that when people are given the option to have another solution for Internet that is ALREADY at their house they know they will lose customers in droves...

So in short..... Lobbyist are what is stalling this technology... Not many people know its out there and that is one reason I continually bring it up is so that more people are educated.... When the people have had enough their voices will be heard over the lobbyist......

cap
 
The rule is so riddled with loopholes that it's become clear that this FCC chairman crafted it with the sole purpose of winning the endorsement of AT&T and cable lobbyists, and not defending the interests of the tens of millions of Internet users.
Welcome to AT&T's Internet
For the first time in history of telecommunications law the FCC has given its stamp of approval to online discrimination.
Instead of a rule to protect Internet users' freedom to choose, the Commission has opened the door for broadband payola - letting phone and cable companies charge steep tolls to favor the content and services of a select group of corporate partners, relegating everyone else to the cyber-equivalent of a winding dirt road.
Instead of protecting openness on wireless Internet devices like the iPhone and Droid, the Commission has exempted the mobile Internet from Net Neutrality protections. This move enshrines Verizon and AT&T as gatekeepers to the expanding world of mobile Internet access, allowing them to favor their own applications while blocking, degrading or de-prioritizing others.
Instead of re-establishing the FCC's authority to act as a consumer watchdog over the Internet, it places the agency's authority on a shaky and indefensible legal footing -- giving ultimate control over the Internet to a small handful of carriers.
???:saburn:
 
The government traditionally messes up more than they help when the get involved in something....taxing the internet sure looks like cheap revenue for cash-strapped government, but how much creativity will be stifiled?
 
The way I view this is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, the Federal Government is only trying to get the nose of the camel under the tent as not to let the voters know what's under the camels tail. Then,,,,,,,,,,, inch by inch they will end up with the camel under the tent and have total control of the tent! :whistle:

Most every federally controlled program begins this way. Let's just put the nose of the camel under the tent for starters! If it smells bad it's probably :moon:
 
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