My long turbo question!!!!!!

once again you are throwing money at an application which isn't needed.

Power commander USB $250 (tell people to shop around, not hard to find at this price brand new.)
Mechanical boost controller under $200

This puts you at exactly what is needed for a BASE/entry level kit. At $700 is would make sense to step up and buy something with more safeguards. But at nearly 3 times as much.....I wouldn't.


remember...entry level kit= under 270 hp. So odds are the owner will only need at most 2 stages of boost.[/QUOTE]

I agree that the BPD ECU is not for everyone. With a $250 power commander, you have no ignition control, and your fuel control is poor. With a $200 boost controller, all you can do is cap maximum boost. For people who are happy with that, there's no point to switching. And if entry level is all you're ever going to do, then there's no point in having room to grow. Remember, as you start hanging on more boxes to do your shift kill, nitrous, launch, etc. the financial side of the equation makes less sense. If spending an extra $1000 (over the bare minimum) to get the most out of a $10,000 plus motorcycle making 100HP more than stock is too much, I understand.

Every one of my customers so far has run with a Power Commander and some other form of boost control before coming to us, and these people are all seeing the benefit. No one has switched back.

We are also dealers for MOTEC, Pectel, AEM and EFI Technology ECUs, and eveything I'm saying applies to all these systems. The main reason I'm promoting the BPD here is that its the first stand-alone that's plug & play and cost competative with a PC usb and all the add-on boxes I typically see.



<!--EDIT|Apex Speed Technology
Reason for Edit: None given...|1152267172 -->
 
(Apex Speed Technology @ July 07 2006 said:
once again you are throwing money at an application which isn't needed.

Power commander USB $250 (tell people to shop around, not hard to find at this price brand new.)
Mechanical boost controller under $200

This puts you at exactly what is needed for a BASE/entry level kit. At $700 is would make sense to step up and buy something with more safeguards. But at nearly 3 times as much.....I wouldn't.


remember...entry level kit= under 270 hp. So odds are the owner will only need at most 2 stages of boost.
Click to expand...

I agree that the BPD ECU is not for everyone.  With a $250 power commander, you have no ignition control, and your fuel control is poor.  With a $200 boost controller, all you can do is cap maximum boost.  For people who are happy with that, there's no point to switching.  And if entry level is all you're ever going to do, then there's no point in having room to grow.   Remember, as you start hanging on more boxes to do your shift kill, nitrous, launch, etc. the financial side of the equation makes less sense.  If spending an extra $1000 (over the bare minimum) to get the most out of a $10,000 plus motorcycle making 100HP more than stock is too much, I understand.

Every one of my customers so far has run with a Power Commander and some other form of boost control before coming to us, and these people are all seeing the benefit.  No one has switched back.

We are also dealers for MOTEC, Pectel, AEM and EFI Technology ECUs, and eveything I'm saying applies to all these systems.  The main reason I'm promoting the BPD here is that its the first stand-alone that's plug & play and cost competative with a PC usb and all the add-on boxes I typically see.[/QUOTE]
you don't have ignition control with pc3r?
 
(suzuki4life @ July 06 2006 said:
9psi....and you will be maxing out the duty cycle of your stock injectors which is just asking for failure....


that is of course unless you are talking about runnign straight race fuel...
Click to expand...
I have over 20 bikes out there running 9-10 psi boost on pump gas with stock injectors with no problem whatsoever, and few of them have over 20,000 miles with the turbo. NO intercoolers, NO water injection, and NO race gas. Every system out there comes at 9 to 10 psi except RCC anyway with integral waste gates. I've ran up to 20psi with stock injectors and race gas on my own with no problems. But it helps to have a dyno and tuning and system setup is the key. It's not the injectors, it's the pump or loss of volume at 90psi that makes the duty cycle a problem. It's only the last couple of years i've preferred to put S2000 injectors in them now with even better results, and i put them in all my customers FMU bikes now.

Back to the original questions from Drew the key to any system you get is having someone who knows what there doing set it up correctly on a dyno!!
You can get an aftermarket ECU from Bazzazz but you will find very few that can actually set it up right, and they have a few problems in the software that need to be corrected and the boost control is below average to say the least. And then you still need to buy a turbo system.
So if you want to land speed or hold it WFO on the highway for long periods you will need C-16 and water injection to say the least low compression intercooled would be better. At least water injection for constant 150 MPH highway runs. If you want a daily rider you can play at the strip and cruise then any of the systems out there will work for that. You don't have to have water injection, you don't need a spacer plate, you don't have to have an intercooler (though would be nice). For a low boost street system all you need is the system setup right.


-



<!--EDIT|TurboProstreet
Reason for Edit: None given...|1152276733 -->
 
(TurboProstreet @ July 07 2006 said:
(suzuki4life @ July 06 2006 said:
9psi....and you will be maxing out the duty cycle of your stock injectors which is just asking for failure....


that is of course unless you are talking about runnign straight race fuel...
Click to expand...
Every system out there comes at 9 to 10 psi except RCC anyway with integral waste gates.
Click to expand...
FALSE!!!!!!!!

Velocity stage one 6 psi call Barry Henson for proof. I have owned one


Hahn Racecraft 7-8 psi (tons of problems in stock form with this kit) call Hahn Racecraft for proof. I have also owned a FEW of these kits

I have been told the RCC/Ghetto kits come at 6 psi preset.



You state ALL kits? NLR...well don't even know of anyone with their entry level kit to comment. Andersson and Mcxpress aren't "entry" level kits. And Mister Turbo.....well....why waste the breath?


You keep telling me about all of your kits. How long HAVE you been in business? I haven't heard nor seen any info on you except within the last few months at best. (not meant to be a dig....an honest question)
 
you don't have ignition control with pc3r?[/QUOTE]

You do, but its an extra $250 module, and it only gives you a limited amount of retard, and you're still stuck mapping against throttle position. This is not what you want; you need to be able to change your boost curve versus RPM.

I have over 20 bikes out there running 9-10 psi boost on pump gas with stock injectors with no problem whatsoever, and few of them have over 20,000 miles with the turbo. NO intercoolers, NO water injection, and NO race gas. Every system out there comes at 9 to 10 psi except RCC anyway with integral waste gates. I've ran up to 20psi with stock injectors and race gas on my own with no problems. But it helps to have a dyno and tuning and system setup is the key. It's not the injectors, it's the pump or loss of volume at 90psi that makes the duty cycle a problem. It's only the last couple of years i've preferred to put S2000 injectors in them now with even better results, and i put them in all my customers FMU bikes now.[/QUOTE]

These are typically the kinds of systems I replace, and yes they can work with proper tuning. A proper electronic system just works better, gives you room to grow, makes for a safer running engine and is a cleaner installation. Its the people who care about these things that I'm trying to address. And as far as costs is concerned, its still a better value than all the add-on boxes once you get into electronic boost controllers, shift kill boxes, airshift kits and launch boxes.

You can get an aftermarket ECU from Bazzazz but you will find very few that can actually set it up right, and they have a few problems in the software that need to be corrected and the boost control is below average to say the least. And then you still need to buy a turbo system.[/QUOTE]

The Bazzaz ECU has been re-engineered with new software, and its much easier to set up. If you can run a Power Commander, you can run a Bazzaz. I'm so confident that I've been offering tuning and training to new dealers at no charge. Where did you ever get the idea that boost control is below average? Perhaps you saw a box that was setup wrong or there was a wastegate problem. Not just single level either, I can control boost very accurately by RPM and Gear, and have data that demonstrates this (see above.) I have more than I can get from customers and post it if you'd like.

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. If anyone would like me to demo the BPD on their dyno, I'll be glad to come out and do it. In the next month I'll be in Dallas, Orange County, CA, Corona, CA, San Diego, San Jose, Madison, Wisconsin, Birmingham, AL and Lexington, KY. I will be working on 'Busas in California & Lexington already so you can just swing by and watch. Just call us to make arrangements - 310.314.2005

Later,

Neel
 
No digs taken Suzuki4life. My name is Walter and i work at NLR and still have my shop running in AZ www.ecsdyno.com and i've been racing, riding, and building Motor, Nitrous, and Turbo bikes for the last 12 years. I've installed and/or tuned NLR (we only make custom kits), RCC, MC Express, Hahn, Chill Factory, Boost unlimited, Heads up. Volocity, and Mr. Turbo kits. I've built my own kits for my bikes, Busa sand rails and built carburated blow thru kits. The Volocity stage one kit with integral waste gate makes 8 to 10 PSI on the dyno on every one i've had on the dyno. Boost creep is the culprit, the boost gauge on the dyno don't lie. Because of creep, pretty much all the integral gated turbos creep up in that area. The RCC has an external Tial gate and usually makes what is advertised.
Apex:
The PC3R has the timing in the unit, the USB has the add on module for timing.
Yes a stand alone is the best way to go, but way out the window in price for someone wanting a base kit at a base price. The BPD units we tested had some glitchs but were nice. The boost control usually wavered a couple of psi and the 5 to 10psi varience wave on the dyno was useless to say the least.
It would be nice if the new units corrected the first gen problems. I would be interested to see one gear of that boost data above zoomed in without smoothing on the channel to see the actual varience and other bike data you have of the different ramps (not RPM based) you can build per gear time based with the BPE? In drag racing the couple of psi varience on the data above could be 20hp difference and a major wheely wasting a pass. Thats why Seb designed the AMS-1000. .1 PSI control to use max power in each gear without over shooting the target and 100 different boost ramps per gear and the option of time based contol. We use Motec units primarily on the bikes we build, but always go with the AMS-1000 for the better boost control.
We're not to far from Birmingham, so PM me when your out here and we'll try to come out.:;):

-
 
Apex:
The PC3R has the timing in the unit, the USB has the add on module for timing.
Yes a stand alone is the best way to go, but way out the window in price for someone wanting a base kit at a
base price.
[/QUOTE]

We're getting the point where standalone technology is no longer way out the window. Its already happened in the car market with a number of products. The BPD is ½ the price of any other standalone, and equivalent in price to hanging a power commander, secondary injector controller, shift controller, etc all to your bike.

The BPD units we tested had some glitchs but were nice. The boost control usually wavered a couple of psi and the 5 to 10psi varience wave on the dyno was useless to say the least.It would be nice if the new units corrected the first gen problems. I would be interested to see one gear of that boost data above zoomed in without smoothing on the channel to see the actual varience[/QUOTE]

I believe your boost controller issue was a tuning problem. Did you play with the PID settings at all? Who's solenoid did you use? What other kinds of glitches did you suffer from? The software and hardware has all been updated and redesigned.

In the data I posted, there is no smoothing. Look at the top right of the screen shot, where it says “Filter: None Rate: 50â€. It shows that this is 50Hz, unfiltered data. I’ve attached a second shot, as you requested. It’s a top gear pull, zoomed in. The entire screen shows 2.7s of running. At the top of the screen, under min and max, you can clearly see that there’s ½ psi variance at 21psi. So that’s 2.5% on a bike that has a 6psi spring on the wastegate. I believe that with a bit more tuning, I could get that down to 0.25psi.

and other bike data you have of the different ramps (not RPM based) you can build per gear time based with the BPD?[/QUOTE]

With this ECU boost control is full-feedback based, so that it the wastegate is constantly being tuned to keep your boost level where you want it. With the BPD, boost is actually mapped by gear and RPM. This means that no matter how your run is going, your boost is consistent – at 7500 RPM you’re going to get the same boost every time, whether it happens 2.5s into the run or 3s. With our system, you can make your build time happen with RPM, very precisely.

In drag racing the couple of psi varience on the data above could be 20hp difference and a major wheely wasting a pass. Thats why Seb designed the AMS-1000. .1 PSI control to use max power in each gear without over shooting the target and 100 different boost ramps per gear and the option of time based contol.[/QUOTE]

With the BPD, you setup tables of RPM versus boost, so there's a limitless number of boost ramps. Moreover, you can build 5 different ramps that can be selected by gear or by switch any time. Furthermore, you not only can prevent overboost, but actually cut fuel if it happens to prevent engine damage.

I spoke to Sebastian at length about the AMS-1000, and it seems like an impressive piece. It definately takes an innovative approach to establishing boost targets. I also like the concept behind his control strategy - if I recall correctly, you are controlling the differential pressure across the wastegate. I’m very interested in evaluating one, as it may be very useful for some projects we do. I can say that we the BPD's boost control strategy has been very effective at the levels we've run.

We use Motec units primarily on the bikes we build, but always go with the AMS-1000 for the better boost control.
[/QUOTE]

We're Motec dealers, and our Formula Extreme bikes run Motec M880s with 8 injectors staged, full lambda control, and gearshift ignition cuts. I have also worked on drag bikes with M800’s. Have you tried the boost control in the V3 software? You may find it works considerably better than the V2 stuff. The great part about the BPD is that it will do everything that an M400 with advanced functions will do at a fraction of the price, and it plugs right into the stock harness.

I'll be in Birmingham for the Grand Am race at Barber, 20-22nd. Come on out, it'd be great to meet in person. I'll bring a box to try if you have a 'busa to plug it into.

One last thing - with the screenshots that I've attached, if you right-click and save as, you can view them at a much higher resolution so they're more legible.



<!--EDIT|Apex Speed Technology
Reason for Edit: None given...|1152418124 -->

boost2.JPG
 
I was one of the original beta testers for the Bazzaz V1 and spent months working on my turbo bike (and on the phone with him) to debug the unit. I consider myself to be an expert tuner and have over 10 years experience with turbo bikes and DFI. On the original ECU the boost control would only work up to 15lbs after which it would osolate over a 5lb range. Mine was the bike that Walter referred to since we used his dyno for load testing but there was also a lot of road work involved. I tried two differant solenoid valves and every possible PID adjustment. It simply didn't work above 15lbs and it appears to be chasing the control which suggests a speed problem. A simple bleed controller on the same bike is rock solid at all settings. The closed loop operation also didn't work as advertised although not a big issue for most. The biggest problem was the now well known crank signal issue. Unless the software has been significantly rewritten it would be difficult for the average tuner to sort out without a lot of help. The version I worked with was a generic product from a third party designed for use by experts on race cars. The new V1 box was suppose to correct the crank signal problem but before the promised box arrived he stopped returning repeated message and disappeared. Perhaps the crew chief job created an over load but a lot of time has passed with no word. As a result I thought he had dropped the project.
All that being said the concept is a good one after everything is debugged and as others have stated a single DFI controller with large injectors is the best approach to accurate fuel delivery. My suggestion however would be to wait for more reports of success from individuals not directly involved in sales.

Gary Evans

http://www.AzBikeTech.com
 
was one of the original beta testers for the Bazzaz V1 and spent months working on my turbo bike (and on the phone with him) to debug the unit. I consider myself to be an expert tuner and have over 10 years experience with turbo bikes and DFI. [/QUOTE]

I'm hope we can get you to try the new unit.

On the original ECU the boost control would only work up to 15lbs after which it would osolate over a 5lb range. Mine was the bike that Walter referred to since we used his dyno for load testing but there was also a lot of road work involved. I tried two differant solenoid valves and every possible PID adjustment. It simply didn't work above 15lbs and it appears to be chasing the control which suggests a speed problem. A simple bleed controller on the same bike is rock solid at all settings.[/QUOTE]

The processor has been upgrade, and the boost software has been redone. The invert functions now allow it to be used as bleed-on or bleed-off, and I've tested it above 20psi with no problem.

The closed loop operation also didn't work as advertised although not a big issue for most. [/QUOTE]

We no longer use the old Bosch LSM-11; we now run LSU-4 widebands. Lambda control works excellent, and I use it 100% of the time.

The biggest problem was the now well known crank signal issue.[/QUOTE]

This is the main reason the boards were completely redesigned. The cam and sync inputs are now fully adaptive, with adaptive filtering. The input circuitry is much more advanced than the old box, and the sync software has been re-written. I have not had a single input related crank or sync issue with a V2 box.

Actually, its ever better. I had a 'busa that would count "sync errors above 5000RPM" pretty regularly, though it ran fine. I removed the cam sensor and found it had been dropped and cracked during dissasembly. The new error checking sync circuity recogized the problem and continued to sync off the gap with no issues.


Unless the software has been significantly rewritten it would be difficult for the average tuner to sort out without a lot of help. The version I worked with was a generic product from a third party designed for use by experts on race cars.[/QUOTE]

The software has been completely re-written, and the comms program no longer exists. The editor program now handles all tuning and changes live, and has searchable help on every setting. Its much easier to use.

The new V1 box was suppose to correct the crank signal problem but before the promised box arrived he stopped returning repeated message and disappeared. Perhaps the crew chief job created an over load but a lot of time has passed with no word. As a result I thought he had dropped the project. [/QUOTE]

Ammar did get slammed, and that's why we became involved. We have direct access to the software developers and have worked with them very closely to resolve issues and add features.

Apex Speed Technology is a full service motorsports electronics company. We are dealers for a number of ECUs, and have engines in AMA Superbike, Prostar, IHRA, Grand Am, ALMS, Speed World Challenge, ABPA and Score. Our buisness is all about helping people with their electronics and we are always accessible and available.



All that being said the concept is a good one after everything is debugged and as others have stated a single DFI controller with large injectors is the best approach to accurate fuel delivery. My suggestion however would be to wait for more reports of success from individuals not directly involved in sales. [/QUOTE]

The ECU works very well and reliably runs single injector bikes with no issues. Are you in Arizona? I'd be happy to come by your shop and run a new box on your dyno with no obligation. Just give us a call or drop us an email.
 
For the advanced street bike with built motor and higher boost needs the BPE boost control sounds like it could be great. But the 1.5 variable from your data above wouldn't work on a race bike at the strip when we're ramping for 15-17 psi in 2nd gear to full boost by third on a 60" bike running 5.0's over 150 in the eighth. If we call for 15 we need 15 it can't vary 1 psi during the run for us to run on the edge. We need the control of being able to change a ramp from 40psi per second to 38 psi a sec ramp changes. It's that crucial per gear to make up the front half we do, and any psi variance could make or brake the runs. Our bikes usually run within a hundreth every pass in 7 sec. The winning factor for having the AMS over the others, we don't have to plug the unit into a lap top to make changes (on the starting line and the track just got oiled on the big end what do you do?). No PIDs to fiddle with to tune the boost control or special solonoids to buy to make it work right, everything comes with the AMS to start perfect control right off the bat. You can set a time based boost curve for your bike and then look at the ramp you have setup by time in the unit, then you can run down the road and after look at the data for the run and see what it actually did. You have the option of setting up up to 7 ramps in the first second of a run if you wish time based it's only limited by you imagination on how you can use the power. Configurable inputs for clutch switch or air shifter input, the AMS changes for either powered switch or ground. Scramble button for up or down boost on a button whatever you set it at, at your command. When riding on the street, if i want a couple more PSI in 5th gear, i don't have to run home and get my laptop and reprogram my ECU, i reach up and program the AMS in seconds and i'm done.

And the bottom line for the original question that started this thread still comes down to:
For the guy wanting a basic street setup (6-8psi) needs 3500.00 for the whole turbo kit, 300.00 PC USB and install and tune. We're talking 5300.00 out the door for a complete setup installed and tuned ready to drive away.
For 6 to 8 psi you don't need an ignition module, you don't need a boost controller you don't need secondary injectors. You don't need a wide band. And you really don't need a 1600.00 standalone. You have to remember the regular street rider doesn't care if the unit has data logging or adjustable PID. They want an affordable system they can bolt on and drive everyday reliably on pump gas. No adjustments, no laptops, just go and ride the roller coaster!

If we can get out there we'll come out and say hi!



<!--EDIT|TurboProstreet
Reason for Edit: "missed"|1152473986 -->
 
(Apex Speed Technology @ July 09 2006 said:
The ECU works very well and reliably runs single injector bikes with no issues.  Are you in Arizona?  I'd be happy to come by your shop and run a new box on your dyno with no obligation.  Just give us a call or drop us an email.
Click to expand...
I am not in the business of selling anything except information and fortunately for me do not have a shop which would make it a job. I consider my involvement to just be giving something back to a sport I enjoy. You will note that my message board stays pretty netural but factual on products.
I do have the old ECU sitting on a garage shelf if you want to swap it for the latest and yes I'm in Arizona (Mesa).
I've changed back to the OEM ECU and FMU after the crank problem became clear and the replacement never materialized.
 
For the advanced street bike with built motor and higher boost needs the BPE boost control sounds like it could be great. But the 1.5 variable from your data above wouldn't work on a race bike at the strip when we're ramping for 15-17 psi in 2nd gear to full boost by third on a 60" bike running 5.0's over 150 in the eighth.
[/QUOTE]

I've never tried to get better than the variance I had on the data shown. We'll be at Erion's dyno on Wednesday, so I'll give it a shot. Have you considered that the AMS1000 might compliment the BPD nicely. Another really nice thing is we can send outputs to activate different functions on it to integrate even better. And I think there's some interesting integration for the data logger.

or the guy wanting a basic street setup (6-8psi) needs 3500.00 for the whole turbo kit, 300.00 PC USB and install and tune.[/QUOTE]

I'm not arguing that. I'm saying if the guy with the basic street setup wants the ability to grow, then the BPD makes sense. Okay, if you're never going to do more than the 6-8psi street turbo and never see going beyond that, then it makes sense. But if you see yourself growing, take a look at it. Most of our customers started off small and grew into their projects. In the motorsports/performance world, projects are more often in transition than complete. For some, and extra $1000 is too much, and the bare minimum is enough. And those aren't the kind of people who need a standalone. We don't expect to even put a dent in the PCIII market. What we expect is to provide high-end fuel injection for people who wish they could use a standalone but don't think they can aford it. Come on, there's a huge hole in the market. $300 for a PCIII or $3000+ (plus building a harness, calibrating sensors, etc.) for an Autronic,which is the cheapest viable solution I can think of.

You have to remember the regular street rider doesn't care if the unit has data logging or adjustable PID.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, which is why we're rolling this out slowly, and which is why I'm on this board, talking to people who really like working on their Busas. We're developing base maps in every configuration possible so that we'll be able to provide the interested street rider with something where they don't need to worry about PID or data logging. But when they're ready for it, it will be there.

If we can get out there we'll come out and say hi! [/QUOTE]

Or let me know if I can bring one out to your dyno. I may be able to escape the race for some time. Also, we'll be on the dyno in Pikeville, Ky on Monday and Tuesday after that.

Thanks!

Neel
 
I am not in the business of selling anything except information and fortunately for me do not have a shop which would make it a job. I consider my involvement to just be giving something back to a sport I enjoy. You will note that my message board stays pretty netural but factual on products.[/QUOTE]

Understood. My offer to demo a V2 unit still stands.


I do have the old ECU sitting on a garage shelf if you want to swap it for the latest and yes I'm in Arizona (Mesa).
I've changed back to the OEM ECU and FMU after the crank problem became clear and the replacement never materialized[/QUOTE]

I do tests regularly at Firebird and PIR. I'll let you know if I'm in the area.

Thanks,

Neel
 
(TurboProstreet @ July 09 2006 said:
And the bottom line for the original question that started this thread still comes down to:
For the guy wanting a basic street setup (6-8psi) needs 3500.00 for the whole turbo kit, 300.00 PC USB and install and tune. We're talking 5300.00 out the door for a complete setup installed and tuned ready to drive away.
Click to expand...
I REALLY don't like your prices!!!!

I have yet to hear of an installer charge $1500 to install a race kit not to mention a basic bolt on kit. Any I have heard, dealt with or talked to state $750-1000 to bolt on a basic kit WITH THE TUNING INCLUDED IF THEY ARE SELLING THE KIT. I personally had a spacer plate, cams sprockets, and turbosystem installed and tuned for $1100. And BTW no he didn't sell me the kit either.
 
1500 is an outside estimate because there always seems to be something else added on. Normally a basic install and tune would be 1,000.00 and that is with an actual custom map not "we put the turbo makers map in it so we tuned it". It all comes down to experience, you pay for what you get. Do you want your turbo system hacked onto the bike with wiring piled were it lays and quick get it done fast plumbing, or wiring more like factory and clean correct plumbing so you can service your bike and not have ten 90 degree fittings in your fuel system (you would have to see our kits, bikes, or installs to know the difference). We're not a corner service shop, custom fabrication, turbo design, installs, and tuning is 90% of what we do every day.


-



<!--EDIT|TurboProstreet
Reason for Edit: "addition"|1152794145 -->
 
(TurboProstreet @ July 13 2006 said:
1500 is an outside estimate because there always seems to be something else added on. Normally a basic install and tune would be 1,000.00 and that is with an actual custom map not "we put the turbo makers map in it so we tuned it". It all comes down to experience, you pay for what you get. Do you want your turbo system hacked onto the bike with wiring piled were it lays and quick get it done fast plumbing, or wiring more like factory and clean correct plumbing so you can service your bike and not have ten 90 degree fittings in your fuel system (you would have to see our kits, bikes, or installs to know the difference). We're not a corner service shop, custom fabrication, turbo design, installs, and tuning is 90% of what we do every day.


-
Click to expand...
So since you make comments about "inferior" installs.....please explain who is doing these "inferior" installs so we can all avoid them and only use you.

I have seen some installs by some Velocity authorized dealers.....ones I have seen are top notch.

I have had an install done already by a well known installer and it looked like a monkey with a hack saw did it.

But since yours are superior......PLEASE...I'd like some photos!!!!!! Show me why yours are better.
 
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