My long turbo question!!!!!!

[drew.brantley]

If you keep any system around 6-7lbs of boost you will be in good shape You do not need extra water or an intercooler. Tey are good for added safty. DO NOT DO PRO-LONGED HIGH END RACING WITH OUT RACE GAS ,WATER AND NA INTRCOOLER PERIOD.



After reading about all these turbo kits out there and being bound and determined to get one in the near future I still have a few questions.

First off, I'm looking at making around 260-280 on a daily rider but be able to take it to the track(1/4) as well as do a few top end runs every once in a while.  I do enjoy an occasional street race.
I dont plan on upgrading anytime soon as a.) I get married in august and b.) She starts med school in Aug so the money to upgrade wont be there for a loooooooooooong while.

I'll probably want to run about 8psi max of boost. Either ghetto or rc because NLR is only 2 hours from where I'm moving.
Will I need a BOV?
Will I need water injection/intercooler?
How about a different fuel fix? ( Ran a nos civic with a rising rate fmu and I hated it) Dont particularly care for a secondary but ive seen this fifth injector gagdet. Can someone just explain the differences in the fuel management?


oh yeah bike background, its lowered 2" in the back, 6" over swingy, and i have a pc3usb. I really miss my wheelies!! I hope a good turbo will bring them back.



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[MidnightBusainSD]

THe Bov is probly not needed but will be benifital in the long run
You will probly want waterinjection for sure since your lowered intercooler may have some rubbing issues

As for diffrent fuel mix that all depends on how long you plan to do high speed blast for which really rean't recommend for a turbo setup

As for fuel managment what you want the adjustable FMU is just fin the fith injector mod is alright but if your gona do that you just as well go with acomple fuel rail i think more added expense though. A good stage one kit i think will get you everything you want even wheelies on a 6 plus arm granted there a bit scary i think.

ALso if you plan for track runs you may wana look into a 2 stage boost controler or possibly even a multistage

 

[smithabusa]

BOV is always a good idea, but 100% neccessary depending on boost level etc.
If you plan to do top end runs an intercooler is highly recommended, you will need to do something with the cooling system for an intercooler as it block the radiator (like add a second fan for 80+ degree city riding or run a fan relocator switch, i currenty am running both), i have an air to air now and love it, 16 psi on pump gas is what I am running and it's incredible.  I have a stage 2 kit with 460 hp, I love having secondaries, 5th injector is only used to make more hp than stock injectors will support, if you have a stage 1 kit and want to make 300-340 hp or so you can either go with a 5th injector (in addition to a FMU, have to have both) or a larger set of injectors.

For the hp you stated, a 5th injector would make no sense, you only really have 3 options for fueling, FMU (tons of guys running them without issues, I had one on my hahn kit for 4 years with no complaints), a secondary system (I have one of these now and love it, they are needed if you wish to run multiuple boost levels which is sounds like you don't), or a full stand alone, which is a lot of money and way more than you are lookoing for in a turbo setup.

I would say you are either going for a FMU stage 1 or possibly look for a used MCXpress kit as they come with air to air intercooler and secondary fuel system, make 300 hp all day long on pump gas.



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[drew.brantley]

if im running round 280-300hp is it necessary to have a base spacer, i mean if i get the mcxpress kit, its got everything but looks (which i find a little important) but with burts kits and ghettos (which have awesome dump pipes) id have to spend extra cash on the spacer and gears, would it be worth it?

 

[smithabusa]

if im running round 280-300hp is it necessary to have a base spacer, i mean if i get the mcxpress kit, its got everything but looks (which i find a little important)  but with burts kits and ghettos (which have awesome dump pipes) id have to spend extra cash on the spacer and gears, would it be worth it?

I am no expert, but in my opinion for long lived very dependable hp I would put the spacer in, some guys get away with stock compression and close to 300 hp, but you are going to be asking for trouble sooner or later, and need to run very good gas.

I suggested MCXpress because you can pick them up used for decent deals occasioanlly and they are excellent kits. The kit I am running now is a MH stage 2 super street with air to air, full exhaust and dump pipes (haven't run the dump yet, had dump pipes on my hahn kit for 3 years and wanted something different).

 

[TurboProstreet]

All you need is the right fueling and a stock motor will make 250 to 290 all day long with no problems. The issue you run into is the base systems are NOT designed to be for top end runs. They are fine for daily play and drag strip fun. If you go out to the drag strip and roundy round without cooling the bike your looking for problems with any setup. Water injection isn't really needed under 9 to 10 PSI and intercooling would be nice but you will loose front end lowering clearence. A base spacer is fine and will help but is not necesary at under 9 PSI boost levels. All this hinges on getting your bike mapped by someone who knows what it takes to set them up on the dyno. I never ever trust a map included with any kit. Every bike is different.

-



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[drew.brantley]

Just for clarification on my part, when everyone talks about top end runs do you mean by gearing the bike then running it for the highest mph possible? or is it just mean taking it to redline in 6th?
I ride my bike extremely hard, and in gearing it only goes 180 topend anyway. Ill probably end up thrashing the bike and turbo fairly often like i do on my na bike now. not to mention i usually put 15k -20k miles on a bike in a year if not more. i mean i put 4200 on my busa just in june.

 

[300Busa]

BOV is the best part. lol

 

[suzuki4life]

After reading about all these turbo kits out there and being bound and determined to get one in the near future I still have a few questions.

First off, I'm looking at making around 260-280 on a daily rider but be able to take it to the track(1/4) as well as do a few top end runs every once in a while.  I do enjoy an occasional street race.
I dont plan on upgrading anytime soon as a.) I get married in august and b.) She starts med school in Aug so the money to upgrade wont be there for a loooooooooooong while.

I'll probably want to run about 8psi max of boost. Either ghetto or rc because NLR is only 2 hours from where I'm moving.
Will I need a BOV?
Will I need water injection/intercooler?
How about a different fuel fix? ( Ran a nos civic with a rising rate fmu and I hated it) Dont particularly care for a secondary but ive seen this fifth injector gagdet. Can someone just explain the differences in the fuel management?


oh yeah bike background, its lowered 2" in the back, 6" over swingy, and i have a pc3usb. I really miss my wheelies!! I hope a good turbo will bring them back.

IMHO.

over 6 psi


you NEED....race gas, intercooler and/ or water injection.


Spacer? Under 300 hp? Not NEEDED...but recommended.

Top end runs.....get a kit with an external gate. Internal gates will work BUT they are more prone to problems.....YOU WILL NEED A GOOD BOOST CONTROLLER EITHER WAY!!!!!

Fueling? Depends on budget. FMU and larger injectors work
But ideal way is larger injectors and a standalone computer tp handle everything.....BUT that costs $$$$$$

BTW I don't like the principle, application nor the idea of a "5th" injector...and yes I HAVE owned one.

 

[suzuki4life]

All you need is the right fueling and a stock motor will make 250 to 290 all day long with no problems. The issue you run into is the base systems are NOT designed to be for top end runs. They are fine for daily play and drag strip fun. If you go out to the drag strip and  roundy round without cooling the bike your looking for problems with any setup. Water injection isn't really needed under 9 to 10 PSI and intercooling would be nice but you will loose front end lowering clearence. A base spacer is fine and will help but is not necesary at under 9 PSI boost levels. All this hinges on getting your bike mapped by someone who knows what it takes to set them up on the dyno. I never ever trust a map included with any kit. Every bike is different.

-

9psi....and you will be maxing out the duty cycle of your stock injectors which is just asking for failure....


that is of course unless you are talking about runnign straight race fuel...

 

[Apex Speed Technology]

Fueling? Depends on budget. FMU and larger injectors work
But ideal way is larger injectors and a standalone computer tp handle everything.....BUT that costs $$$$$$
[/QUOTE]

Larger injectors and a standalone computer is the way to go, and it doesn't have to cost that much. The ridability and the flexibility you get is a huge benefit. Plus, its much safer for your motor.

Here's why:

1. You can make an entirely custom advance curve. By running less timing under boost, but more in vacuum, you can improve your turbocharger response AND prevent detonation.

2. By running the engine suitably rich (thanks to a full-custom fuel curve) in conjunction with proper timing and boost control, you can run without water injection or race gas. You can only do this right with a stand alone ECU.

3. You have full control over you boost levels. You can actually have multiple maps so you can run low and high boost, or set your curves versus RPM and gear position. So you can switch between a pump gas, low boost setting to a race setting by flipping a switch. Plus you can smooth your power delivery and make your bike more ridable. Not only that, but you can have an overboost safety that will shut down the motor if you ever have a wastegate problem.

4. You have the ability to run closed-loop oxygen sensor mixture control. This allows for more consistant fueling and performance under all conditions, and can also help save your motor in the event of a lean-out condition.

Stand-alone ECUs used to be big money, but by focusing on the 'busa we've brought the cost down considerably. The Bazzaz Performance ECU plugs directly into the stock harness and is laptop-programable. It retails for $1600, but includes the ability to do boost control, ignition shift kill, airshift, closed-loop lambda control, launch control and many more features that people often have to buy extra boxes for.

 

[suzuki4life]

Fueling? Depends on budget. FMU and larger injectors work
But ideal way is larger injectors and a standalone computer tp handle everything.....BUT that costs $$$$$$

Larger injectors and a standalone computer is the way to go, and it doesn't have to cost that much.  The ridability and the flexibility you get is a huge benefit.  Plus, its much safer for your motor.

Here's why:

1.  You can make an entirely custom advance curve.  By running less timing under boost, but more in vacuum, you can improve your turbocharger response AND prevent detonation.

2.  By running the engine suitably rich (thanks to a full-custom fuel curve) in conjunction with proper timing and boost control, you can run without water injection or race gas.  You can only do this right with a stand alone ECU.

3.  You have full control over you boost levels.  You can actually have multiple maps so you can run low and high boost, or set your curves versus RPM and gear position.  So you can switch between a pump gas, low boost setting to a race setting by flipping a switch.  Plus you can smooth your power delivery and make your bike more ridable.  Not only that, but you can have an overboost safety that will shut down the motor if you ever have a wastegate problem.  

4.  You have the ability to run closed-loop oxygen sensor mixture control.  This allows for more consistant fueling and performance under all conditions, and can also help save your motor in the event of a lean-out condition.

Stand-alone ECUs used to be big money, but by focusing on the 'busa we've brought the cost down considerably.  The Bazzaz Performance ECU plugs directly into the stock harness and is laptop-programable.  It retails for $1600, but includes the ability to do boost control, ignition shift kill, airshift, closed-loop lambda control, launch control and many more features that people often have to buy extra boxes for.[/QUOTE]
You need to come up with a neutered version for non-turbo or smaller turbo applications with a cost under $700.

I agree, this is the way to go BUT it will also increase the cost of a base turbosystem nearly $1600++++!!!!!


Very hard to get a guy who just spent $3500+ to spend that much extra cash When the next level kits which have secondaries and controller are in the ballpark same price range and make a lot more power!!!

 

[Apex Speed Technology]

You need to come up with a neutered version for non-turbo or smaller turbo applications with a cost under $700.

I agree, this is the way to go BUT it will also increase the cost of a base turbosystem nearly $1600++++!!!!!


Very hard to get a guy who just spent $3500+ to spend that much extra cash When the next level kits which have secondaries and controller are in the ballpark same price range and make a lot more power!!![/QUOTE]

Actually, its not any more expensive than what you'll need, its an easier installation, more powerful and a much better value. Consider the following:

1. Compare to this:
Dynojet Power commander: $330.
Dynojet Ignition Module: $350
AMS1000 Boost controler: $850

Total: $1530.

Bazzaz ECU: $1595
Wastegate Solenoid: $65. Will plug into the stock wiring for the vacuum control solenoid.

Total: $1660.

2. The BPD is plug and Play. With any other solution, you have to wire everything in, you're piggybacking off the stock ECU so you still have many limitations, and your boost controller is not integrated with the engine managment so you're limited on functionality.

3. With the other solutions, you still don't have the ability to do wideband lambda, 2-step launch control etc, gear dependant shift cut, true gear dependant boost control, progressive nitrous control, etc.

4. The protections save your motor 1 time, you've saved more than $1600.

5. MOTEC, AUTRONIC, or any other stand alone system will set you back at least $3000, and isn't plug and play for the Hayabusa. You'll have to come up with your own calibrations, base maps etc.

So where's the extra cost?

 

[smithabusa]

Out of curiosity, couple of questions.

I have heard people in the past say the Bazazz unit will not work well on 500+ hp bikes due to weak ignition drivers or something to that effect. Any truth to that? Also how well does the boost control work? Have any logs of boost pressure to see how accurate the wastegate system works?

 

[Apex Speed Technology]

I have heard people in the past say the Bazazz unit will not work well on 500+ hp bikes due to weak ignition drivers or something to that effect. Any truth to that? [/QUOTE]

The orignal BPD's had issues with ignition noise causing interferance with the cam sync signal at high horsepower. The V2 boxes have more advanced mag triggering circuitry that takes care of this problem. The triggering circutry also has error detection and logging so you can monitor this. I've run 2 500HP 'busas with no errors.

Also how well does the boost control work? Have any logs of boost pressure to see how accurate the wastegate system works?[/QUOTE]

Very well. It has full PID tuning, which means that you can very finely tailor the response charactoristics of your solenoid. Also you define the base duty cycle of the wastegate valve versus RPM, which quickens the response to a boost target. I've attached a good 3-gear dyno pull from April The reason I chose this was the turbo is sized for 30psi, but at the time we were only running 12psi. There's some lag which you can see in the boost traces, but as soon at it his the target (12.3psi, in this case) it flattens with no overboost.

The data you see here is part of the optional data logging package, and is very comprehensive.



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[smithabusa]

Very nice! How much is the datalogging option and does it include wideband?

 

[suzuki4life]

You need to come up with a neutered version for non-turbo or smaller turbo applications with a cost under $700.

I agree, this is the way to go BUT it will also increase the cost of a base turbosystem nearly $1600++++!!!!!


Very hard to get a guy who just spent $3500+ to spend that much extra cash When the next level kits which have secondaries  and controller are in the ballpark same price range and make a lot more power!!!

Actually, its not any more expensive than what you'll need, its an easier installation, more powerful and a much better value.  Consider the following:

1.  Compare to this:  
Dynojet Power commander: $330.  
Dynojet Ignition Module: $350
AMS1000 Boost controler: $850

Total: $1530.

Bazzaz ECU: $1595
Wastegate Solenoid: $65.  Will plug into the stock wiring for the vacuum control solenoid.

Total: $1660.[/QUOTE]
once again you are throwing money at an application which isn't needed.

Power commander USB $250 (tell people to shop around, not hard to find at this price brand new.)
Mechanical boost controller under $200

This puts you at exactly what is needed for a BASE/entry level kit. At $700 is would make sense to step up and buy something with more safeguards. But at nearly 3 times as much.....I wouldn't.


remember...entry level kit= under 270 hp. So odds are the owner will only need at most 2 stages of boost.

 

[Apex Speed Technology]

Wideband support is standard with all BPD ECUs. You can use a wideband sensor to control mixture while mapping and riding.

The 1MB data logging option is $995, and includes:

1. The ability to log up to 54 channels. Each one can be individually selected to record from 1 to 100 times per second.
2. The ability to turn logging on and off by your speed and RPM criteria.
3. Advnaced analysis software, which has been used in CART, IRL, Grand AM, AMA Roadracing, AMA Prostar drag racing, IHRA drag racing and many more professional series.

The software is very advanced. It allows you to do:
Plots versus time.
Plots versus distance.
2-D and 3-D plots.
Histograms.
Frequency plots.
Advanced reports.
User-defined math channels.
The ability to compare multiple datasets.
With an optional lap beacon and gyro, the system can actually draw track maps and you can look at data versus position on a closed course.

There are lower-priced, stand-alone data loggers we offer for as little as $499.

 

[drew.brantley]

You need to come up with a neutered version for non-turbo or smaller turbo applications with a cost under $700.

I agree, this is the way to go BUT it will also increase the cost of a base turbosystem nearly $1600++++!!!!!


Very hard to get a guy who just spent $3500+ to spend that much extra cash When the next level kits which have secondaries  and controller are in the ballpark same price range and make a lot more power!!!

Actually, its not any more expensive than what you'll need, its an easier installation, more powerful and a much better value.  Consider the following:

1.  Compare to this:  
Dynojet Power commander: $330.  
Dynojet Ignition Module: $350
AMS1000 Boost controler: $850

Total: $1530.

Bazzaz ECU: $1595
Wastegate Solenoid: $65.  Will plug into the stock wiring for the vacuum control solenoid.

Total: $1660.

once again you are throwing money at an application which isn't needed.

Power commander USB $250 (tell people to shop around, not hard to find at this price brand new.)
Mechanical boost controller under $200

This puts you at exactly what is needed for a BASE/entry level kit. At $700 is would make sense to step up and buy something with more safeguards. But at nearly 3 times as much.....I wouldn't.


remember...entry level kit= under 270 hp. So odds are the owner will only need at most 2 stages of boost.[/QUOTE]
plus i have no idea what half the things are in this fancy ecu or what they do or how to use them so id be reluctant to spend my money on it right now

 

[Apex Speed Technology]

plus i have no idea what half the things are in this fancy ecu or what they do or how to use them so id be reluctant to spend my money on it right now[/QUOTE]

We sell the units with a base map so customers don't have to worry about all the detailed settings. As you learn more, you can use more and more features. You always have the base map the bike started on, so you can always go back. In fact, the ECU has 2 separate maps. So you could leave one stock, and modify the other one as you learn things, and always have the old setup to turn to.

Another great thigns is that, once tuned, the BPD is relatively self-adjusting. It has fuel and spark compensations for water temp, air temp, airbox pressure (in naturally asiprated applications) and closed-loop mixutre control. This means that once it is tuned, you can pretty much just ride it. As the engine wears, as the weather changes and as your riding changes, the bike will continue to run consistantly.

For people who are going to try and change a bunch of things they don't know about at random, they're going to get themselves in trouble with a Power Commander, Techlusion, or a set of carbs and a stack of jets. Yes, I agree that having the ability to change things means a person needs some discipline, or at least the sense to save changes along the way.

We make ourselves very available to our cusotmers for support, and will help you build your knowledge. Finally, we're available to tune bikes as well, and new dealers get free training. I've stood by every installation I've done, and we'll continue to make sure our customers get the most out of their bikes.



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