Help Me Understand - Killing vs. Hunting

[Aquaman]

It is a viscious and cruel thing to make 2 dogs fight to the death! PERIOD. What more do you need to know? To place a bet on 2 dogs fighting till one succombs or dies is worth a jail sentence to me! I love dogs! He got caught, he has to pay for it now! simple

[dadofthree]

Okay, with all the drama about Michael Vick being released from prison, I am at a crossraods in my own judgment. I look at what happened and YES he violated the law. HOWEVER, since when does it make much of a difference to value a dogs life over other animals???

Yeah, I understand that dogs are typically domesticated & yes most of us have a soft spot in our hearts for them. But, hell there are too many strays running round any dayum way.

What about deer, fish, game birds, squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, & the sort?? Just because you pay for a license (that state governments get the $$ from)to wack them it is okay?? Guys, go out yearly & spend hundreds of thousands of $$$ to hunt. This guy funds an operation to fight dogs of a breed that most people don't like anyway. He loses his freedom & income for a few years, and then the Fed kill the remaing dogs anyway. You have people that kill people & get less time or even fuggin probation.

SOMEHOW THIS SHID JUST SEEMS WRONG IN MY MIND. END OF THE DAY WHAT MAKES DOGS SO SPECIAL.

NOTE: I am not being insensitive to dog lovers. I have had several of my own & I loved them dearly. I am just trying figure out if I am the only one thinking this way.

You need to look in the mirror and ask yourself " Is it the dog that I think is special or the criminal ? "

I don't hunt or fish. Naomi and her father are trying to get me into it. Anyway; deer, rabbits, squirrels, etc. are being managed by the state and actually used for food, and other things.

In SC the damage to autos goes in the millions every year from deer vs car type accidents, and deaths occur from time to time as well as personal injury.

I don't know hunters that torture their prey to death. In Dove Hunting for example the bird is shot and it's neck is ringed immediately.

Anyway, I'm not the one to speak up for hunters, but fighting dogs or chickens, etc. is a violation of law. I will say this, I think Mr. Vick was made an example of; I say that not having followed the case at all.

[teamorion22]

No its not the end of the story cause when they dont fight guess what happens.... Vick kills them!!!!!!!!!!

that is simply not true. clearly you do not know the facts about what vick has found guilty of

[oldschool]

How do you discern the difference in the value of a mentally challenged individual and a search/rescue K-9? While the mentally challenged person is indeed human, I would posit that their value to mankind is far less than that of a working K-9. If value is all that matters, what is keeping us from disposing of these people?

Their value to mankind? I don't share your moral system since you believe a human only has value if other humans value him.

Humans are an end in themselves and are not a means to any end for others, the state, for nature, mankind, anything else or anyone else. That is my moral system. I'll just say that I disagree with you and my reason for not continuing is that reasoning with a person that is irrational (someone who views a dog as morally superior or that a humans moral stature is dependent on his value to "mankind") is impossible, and I'll leave it at that. Thanks.

[HT_USMC]

It's about the suffering and slavery of it all.

Someone mentioned UFC. Really? In order for this to draw a parallel you would have to chain both people up for weeks at a time with little food and water. Leave them both in the elements over that time. Train them by beating them, shocking them, clipping ears, branding them, and any thing else you can think of to make them "hard", "savage", "primal" and angry or scared.

Then speak to them in languages they don't understand as you place them both into the octagon with the very loose understanding that it's kill or be killed. Let the fight begin with no clear ending in sight as you hoot and holler as bets are placed.


That would be the same. Force them to do something they don't want to do.

[BusaBret]

SP,

Mr Bogus made some good points and I will only add to them. To true "hunters" it is much more than killing. It is almost a religious experience and definitely a treat to the senses. It also awakens a long dead flow of instinct and emotion. Imagine if you will, if you are not a hunter, sitting in the woods and watching the sun rise and the natural world come to life and go about it's business. It can be awe inspiring. No where else can you be a part of this.

Outdoors men as a group are the most successful conservationists as well. They again as a group put more money into conservation than just about anyone else save the government. For an example take a look at the Whitetail Deer and the Wild Turkey. Both at their own time were very close to being endangered and now are thriving. Did hunters do all of it? No. But they did play a major role in both. We are as much more stewards of the land and animals than we are takers.

I am a hunter and a fisherman. I do not take any animal from the wild that I do not use all I can. Venison is our primary meat throughout the year. I also donate a couple a year to Hunters Helping the Hungry as well as harvest, butcher and deliver the meat to needy families in my area.

Finally as the owner of a Pit and Rott I detest Micheal Vick and anyone else that abuses any animal.

[Vonderbach]

Humans are an end in themselves and are not a means to any end for others, the state, for nature, mankind, anything else or anyone else. That is my moral system. I'll just say that I disagree with you and my reason for not continuing is that reasoning with a person that is irrational (someone who views a dog as morally superior) is impossible, and I'll leave it at that. Thanks.

I never claimed a dog was morally superior. I said a dog can have more value. In fact, some dogs have more value than fully functioning human beings, but that's not really an issue worthy of this discussion. Value does not dictate our emotion or morality. If that were true, nobody would ever donate a dollar to charity, nor would anyone lend something to another.

The reason I mentioned that particular scenario is because you mentioned earlier that humans have more value. I asked you to explain to me what constitutes value in your opinion. You are of the opinion that humans have an inherent value above all others. And yet you have not explained to me how you arrive at such a conclusion. Just as you are unable to tell me why dogs are no more value than common rodents and are not deserving of any special considerations as it pertains to torturous dog fighting.

You can discontinue our discussion if you like, but to discount my questions because you do not agree with my moral values is rather disingenuous.

[teamorion22]

http://www.lcanimal.org/cmpgn/dog_fight/vick_indictment.pdf

there was no evidence to accuse vick of torturing or killing or attempting to euthanize dogs that did not or under performed. nor was he found guilty of this.

regardless he was found guilty of dog fighting, served his time, and i doubt he will do anything similar again or associate with those that do.

one cool thing i read in that affidavit or whatever it is is that they buried car axles to keep the dogs chained. that way the chain would not tangle

[Vonderbach]

"Not guilty" does not mean he was innocent. It simply means they lacked evidence to convict him of those charges, assuming they were even made. Trials do not prove innocence, they prove a lack of evidence to convict guilt.

[MyRulz]

Okay, with all the drama about Michael Vick being released from prison, I am at a crossraods in my own judgment. I look at what happened and YES he violated the law. HOWEVER, since when does it make much of a difference to value a dogs life over other animals???

Yeah, I understand that dogs are typically domesticated & yes most of us have a soft spot in our hearts for them. But, hell there are too many strays running round any dayum way.

What about deer, fish, game birds, squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, & the sort?? Just because you pay for a license (that state governments get the $$ from)to wack them it is okay?? Guys, go out yearly & spend hundreds of thousands of $$$ to hunt. This guy funds an operation to fight dogs of a breed that most people don't like anyway. He loses his freedom & income for a few years, and then the Fed kill the remaing dogs anyway. You have people that kill people & get less time or even fuggin probation.

SOMEHOW THIS SHID JUST SEEMS WRONG IN MY MIND. END OF THE DAY WHAT MAKES DOGS SO SPECIAL.

NOTE: I am not being insensitive to dog lovers. I have had several of my own & I loved them dearly. I am just trying figure out if I am the only one thinking this way.

Dogs are pets ... wild animals are not, so IMO there is not a fair comparison to be made here.

[Mr Bogus]

Why am I questioning the morals of even posting a question like this... (is rather inflammatory in any light)

Maybe someones compass is broken?

[Takeuon]

Okay, with all the drama about Michael Vick being released from prison, I am at a crossraods in my own judgment. I look at what happened and YES he violated the law. HOWEVER, since when does it make much of a difference to value a dogs life over other animals???

Yeah, I understand that dogs are typically domesticated & yes most of us have a soft spot in our hearts for them. But, hell there are too many strays running round any dayum way.

What about deer, fish, game birds, squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, & the sort?? Just because you pay for a license (that state governments get the $$ from)to wack them it is okay?? Guys, go out yearly & spend hundreds of thousands of $$$ to hunt. This guy funds an operation to fight dogs of a breed that most people don't like anyway. He loses his freedom & income for a few years, and then the Fed kill the remaing dogs anyway. You have people that kill people & get less time or even fuggin probation.

SOMEHOW THIS SHID JUST SEEMS WRONG IN MY MIND. END OF THE DAY WHAT MAKES DOGS SO SPECIAL.

NOTE: I am not being insensitive to dog lovers. I have had several of my own & I loved them dearly. I am just trying figure out if I am the only one thinking this way.

The feds did not kill any of the remaining dogs. There were a few that were to injured to be saved(because they had been beaten or neglected so severely) All others went here DogTown | Saving the Michael Vick Dogs | Dogtown - National Geographic Channel
You should watch this particular episode. And if you don't feel compassion & sorrow for how these innocent animals were treated.... As opposed to "hunting" an animal, in which death usually occurs quickly & painlessly, ...for the benefit of food(most of the time) then something is wrong with you.
I read a full thread on Yahoo Discussions about this topic and is was insane!

[Southside Playa]

My compass is fine & on-point. I guess there is something wrong with questioning the perception of something that has such an impact in society.

I don't condone what happened by any stretch of your imagination. However, sometimes I wonder if the justice system is fair & far enough reaching in ALL directions.

But I forgot that in some places thinking for yourself is a crime!!

[Southside Playa]

Everyone keeps talking about a "humane" death.

Is the end result therein not the same. Maybe intent & deliberation vary, but at the end of the day dead is dead.

[MyRulz]

My compass is fine & on-point. I guess there is something wrong with questioning the perception of something that has such an impact in society.

I don't condone what happened by any stretch of your imagination. However, sometimes I wonder if the justice system is fair & far enough reaching in ALL directions.

But I forgot that in some places thinking for yourself is a crime!!

No, our Justice System is not fair and it's not far enough reaching, but it's nice to know that OCCASIONALLY justice is actually served!

I like to believe that those who skate by and/or avoid the punishment they truly deserve here on Earth will eventually pay for their sins ...

[Vonderbach]

Is the end result therein not the same. Maybe intent & deliberation vary, but at the end of the day dead is dead.

We value the difference as humans in the wars that we wage. The Geneva Conventions make it very clear that torture is not to take place in a war setting, yet killing is perfectly acceptable. Why should our treatment of animals differ? Are they incapable of feeling pain?

[theskaz]

Everyone keeps talking about a "humane" death.

Is the end result therein not the same. Maybe intent & deliberation vary, but at the end of the day dead is dead.

death is painless, dying is usually painful. if you gotta go, painless is usually the preferred way.

[Mr Bogus]

Everyone keeps talking about a "humane" death.

Is the end result therein not the same. Maybe intent & deliberation vary, but at the end of the day dead is dead.

I guess I would go maybe what is so wrong with slavery then? by the end of the day you are tired of doing the work, have a place eat and sleep and when you keel over after 40 years of it, you are still dead...

Love troll threads... now, about that thing ... oh yea.. age of consent..

[theskaz]

And last I checked, I think most animals are FAR better creatures than humans. You dont see dogs or cats screwing one another over for a promotion.

i had a coworker that told me this same thing. which sparked a small debate. you are right, they dont screw over other for promotions and such but thats because "promotions" and other humanly things dont exist in the animal world. but lets look at it another way. what would happen if i went up to Megan Fox and started sniffing her butt? then commence to mounting her in public without asking? what about going into a mans house and taking his wife and house from him and either killing him or kicking him to the curb just because i was bigger? if you think about it, some of the vile crap humans do STILL dont compare to animals. ive watched mice eat their babies, male dogs kill puppies by other male dogs, and horses kill dogs just beacuse they were aggrevated by them. just food for thought.

[Red05]

I guess I would go maybe what is so wrong with slavery then? by the end of the day you are tired of doing the work, have a place eat and sleep and when you keel over after 40 years of it, you are still dead...

Cool. I have plenty for you to do, starting tomorrow. You can start by mowing the lawn...