Hello all, I've been wanting a Busa for a few years now and have decided that it's going to happen this season. I've read through a few of the "buying guides" on this forum and have come across the somewhat probable issue of buying one with the "2nd gear" problem. I'm interested in getting a Gen. 1, 2003-2007 Busa and was hoping if someone would please elaborate on this transmission problem. Is it shifting from gear 1 to 2nd or shifting from 2nd gear to 3rd? Does it happen between a certain RPM range?
Buying a used Busa - "2nd gear" problem
- Thread starter 1UP
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IG.
Registered
Welcome to the forum! Short answer: stay away from it!
2nd gear problem refers to 'popping out of 2nd gear'. Imagine you are accelerating in 2nd gear, and all of a sudden the bike switches to neutral and a second later back to 2nd - all by itself. Very unnerving, and absolutely unacceptable flaw. A couple of years ago I was looking for Gen 1 bike being exactly in your situation. Road tested one bike, and had a "great" experience in how it feels. Needless to say, I passed on that bike.
It will cost you (I've heard) at least $1500 to fix it because this involves opening up the transmission besides replacing the parts. Often, it is suggested to undercut the dogs to combat this exact problem in the future. I think shifting correctly is key, and I think clutchless upshifting is the way to go - quicker, easier, and good for transmission.
The problem develops when a rider shifts incorrectly all the time. Shift dogs get banged up and as a result get rounded and don't hold the gear position in place reliably.
2nd gear problem refers to 'popping out of 2nd gear'. Imagine you are accelerating in 2nd gear, and all of a sudden the bike switches to neutral and a second later back to 2nd - all by itself. Very unnerving, and absolutely unacceptable flaw. A couple of years ago I was looking for Gen 1 bike being exactly in your situation. Road tested one bike, and had a "great" experience in how it feels. Needless to say, I passed on that bike.
It will cost you (I've heard) at least $1500 to fix it because this involves opening up the transmission besides replacing the parts. Often, it is suggested to undercut the dogs to combat this exact problem in the future. I think shifting correctly is key, and I think clutchless upshifting is the way to go - quicker, easier, and good for transmission.
The problem develops when a rider shifts incorrectly all the time. Shift dogs get banged up and as a result get rounded and don't hold the gear position in place reliably.
If you can, look into a good 05 or up bike, as long as it was not abused you should be fine. There are plenty of used bikes on the market so if you are patient you should find what you are looking for in good shape.
jch364
Registered
my 06 had it for a while when I bought mine new but it eventually went away. once I shifted it harder it was fine. pretty common problem from what I have seen ... at least from new... if it has some good miles on it and its hard to get in gear then maybe something else. if its slipping out of first or second then its been run hard. mine did that after a year at the drag strip. put new gears in mine. wasn't cheap.
Buy a unmolested '03 or later that's been adult owned and you will be fine. Motorcycle 2nd gear problems are not specific to the Hayabusa. A lot of bikes have that problem caused by ham fisted, poorly timed, full throttle upshifts. The ratio jump is greatest between 1st and 2nd. Sloppy shifts where the engagement dogs get rounded off cause problems in many models.
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See?
cheers
ken
2nd gear problems / failure
2002 CBR 954rr with second gear problem - Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org
2003 gsxr 600 2nd gear problem ???? : Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums: Gixxer.com
problem shifting into 2nd gear - Honda Rebel Forum
2nd gear problem. help - Page 2 - ZX6R Forum
YZF600R Forums ? View topic - 2002 YAMAHA 600 YZF 2ND GEAR PROBLEM.
2nd gear problem in Yamaha R1. What are those parts that need to be changed? : Yamaha R1 Forum
What is the common 2nd gear problem for the R6?? : Yamaha R6 : R6 Forum
See?
cheers
ken
Alright guys and/or gals, thanks a lot for the quick Busa-like responses. I haven't personally owned or ridden a bike that had any transmission shifting problems so this would be a new feeling to experience altogether. When I go and test drive a Busa, how "hard" do I have to push/test ride it to produce the problem if it exists? I believe I can tell if the bike didn't feel smooth or normal shifting between gears but if the bike did have a problem with slipping out of gear, would it happen during gentle/normal riding or during heavier load?
ZRXMAX
Registered
I have an 05 with over 20K on it and it has gotten to the point I use the clutch more often for down shifting than for upshiifting once I am up and rolling. I am now comfortable with full throttle shifts from 1st to 2nd past 10k where all I do is load the shifter prior to working the throttle up and down as fast as I can. I would estimate those shifts take somewhere between 10/100s and 30/100s of a second to complete. Try this right now. Hold your wrist as if you are applying full throttle, then, see how fast you can close and open the throttle. You don't have to close it all the way when your riding and shifting. All you have to do is unload the drivetrain long enough for that gear to slide over to the next dog... and it doesn't take to long!
ZRXMAX, I seriously just attempted this while sitting at my desk and just failed. So in Layman's terms, you mean for me to try shifting without operating the clutch? I'm going to have to study your instructions here some more.
RedBusarider
Registered
For normal riding 98% of the time I use the clutch - just shift it like you mean it - a good upclick and everything should be fine.
To upshift without the clutch you just preload the shift lever (hold pressure against it but not enough to force a shift) then wind up
the RPM's and the quickly reduce the throttle - when you do the shifter will click (almost automatically) to the next gear than add throttle again
and repeat for the next gear.
Is that clear? Yes you need to use the clutch for all downshifts.
As of yet I have never had a problem with it popping in or out of any gear.
To upshift without the clutch you just preload the shift lever (hold pressure against it but not enough to force a shift) then wind up
the RPM's and the quickly reduce the throttle - when you do the shifter will click (almost automatically) to the next gear than add throttle again
and repeat for the next gear.
Is that clear? Yes you need to use the clutch for all downshifts.
As of yet I have never had a problem with it popping in or out of any gear.
IG.
Registered
What ZRXMAX told you is called clutchless upshifting. You can look it up, and most likely will find plenty of info including videos of how it's done. Makes no difference whether you do it at low rpm or close to redline. It's really a lot simpler (and healthier for the bike) than regular upshifting, and a very condensed version is this: you are on the gas (accelerating or steady); preload the shifter (pressing it up and holding the pressure, and don't worry it's not going to shift while you are on the gas and engine is under load); blip the throttle to partially close and immediately open back; the shift happens by itself and automatically at the exact moment the bike's transmission is unloaded; release the shifter.
There are some fine points, but once you start doing it, you will see what needs to be adjusted on your part. For example, cluchless upshifting 1->2 requires closing the throttle more, and returning the throttle back to a noticeably smaller throttle opening. On the other hand, clutchless upshifting 5->6 requires closing the throttle just a little bit and returning the throttle back to pretty much the same opening. Obviously, the above is caused by the difference in gearing: in case of 1-2, the difference is significant, while in case of 5-6, the difference is very small.
If you don't hit those fine points just right, especially in lower gears, you may feel the bike lurching. However, this is likely caused by your throttle opening being too wide for the new taller gear, thus pulling the bike forward as if you quickly opened the throttle. Don't be too concerned about it. By that time, the gears already shifted and locked, and it's no different than if you simply closed and opened the throttle - just a load on your chain which is fully capable to handle it.
Another fine point, don't baby the shifter and apply good amount of pressure. On occasion, when you are tired or distracted, you may be pressing on the shifter lightly and as a result may get into a false neutral after upshift (i.e. you open the gas after an upshift, the bike revs, but does not pull). Don't panic - just close the throttle and upshift again. If this starts happening often, you are doing something wrong. If this happens once in a blue moon, just shrug it off.
Now, downshifting... you still gotta use the clutch, although many (including myself) would on occasion just push it down at low rpm and no load, and the gears click down effortlessly. I wouldn't do and wouldn't recommend this for any type of aggressive riding.
There are some fine points, but once you start doing it, you will see what needs to be adjusted on your part. For example, cluchless upshifting 1->2 requires closing the throttle more, and returning the throttle back to a noticeably smaller throttle opening. On the other hand, clutchless upshifting 5->6 requires closing the throttle just a little bit and returning the throttle back to pretty much the same opening. Obviously, the above is caused by the difference in gearing: in case of 1-2, the difference is significant, while in case of 5-6, the difference is very small.
If you don't hit those fine points just right, especially in lower gears, you may feel the bike lurching. However, this is likely caused by your throttle opening being too wide for the new taller gear, thus pulling the bike forward as if you quickly opened the throttle. Don't be too concerned about it. By that time, the gears already shifted and locked, and it's no different than if you simply closed and opened the throttle - just a load on your chain which is fully capable to handle it.
Another fine point, don't baby the shifter and apply good amount of pressure. On occasion, when you are tired or distracted, you may be pressing on the shifter lightly and as a result may get into a false neutral after upshift (i.e. you open the gas after an upshift, the bike revs, but does not pull). Don't panic - just close the throttle and upshift again. If this starts happening often, you are doing something wrong. If this happens once in a blue moon, just shrug it off.
Now, downshifting... you still gotta use the clutch, although many (including myself) would on occasion just push it down at low rpm and no load, and the gears click down effortlessly. I wouldn't do and wouldn't recommend this for any type of aggressive riding.
rockethead
Registered
It's about shifting appropriately. Lazy shifts and wheelies imo cause second gear issues.
You need to push it hard to discover if you have the second gear problem or not.
I mean wide open throttle , because it can hide itself otherwise.
I am talking from experience because it has happened to me.
It's a little hard to describe but I shall try.
1st and foremost don't look for it right off the bat when test riding your prospective Busa, why do I say this ?
Because you must warm up the tires first ,otherwise you could be that guy, who spins up the rear and dumps the bike.
So after a reasonable amount of miles lets say 10 .
Stop the bike in a safe place. Make it on a straightaway also.
So now your going to launch it as you would in a drag race.
Click into 1st ,release the clutch, wide open throttle to about 6k in 1st, nice firm shift into second, right back into wide open throttle, this is where you will discover if it has the " problem "or not.
The tranny will either hold and you will shift into 3rd and let off, or it will " Pop " in and out of gear.
It makes a horrible grinding noise and you and the bike get jerked forward and backward as it pops in and out under load.
1bondoman
Registered
Feels like chain jumping teeth on the sprockets. I've seen then do it at 3k rpms and had them not do until 9k or more.
Even had a few that done it in 1st.
I have also had them not show their azz until I had a passenger on the back. Really depends on how long and how bad it's been skipping.
Even had a few that done it in 1st.
I have also had them not show their azz until I had a passenger on the back. Really depends on how long and how bad it's been skipping.
RedBusarider
Registered
Might as well have an Automatic.
But then again it ain't no Busa.
But then again it ain't no Busa.
Preload the shifter so you are sure you you are going to catch the lower gear.
At the same time snap the throttle closed and shift into a lower gear.
Then with no delay quickly open the throttle to a position greater than it was when you started the shift.
Pretty much the same as an upshift except with an upshift the throttle is opened slightly less than when the shift was started.
You think it's bad for the transmission, but is that not applying the same thought process as all the people who think clutchless upshifting damages the transmission? Do you have any actual evidence of many motorcycle transmission being damaged by clutchless downshifting?
I know, from your posts, your are more convinced by practical experience and not the "appeal to authority" argument. Give it a go for yourself, make up your own mind.
cheers
ken
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