After America, There is noplace to go...

Fair enough Dino.

Afterhours, One could just as easily say "Liberals and Socialists share much ideology with the COMMUNIST party they use so often to antimidate and envoke fear."

Does that help this discussion any? I doubt it. I want neither for my country.
 
Fair enough Dino.

Afterhours, One could just as easily say "Liberals and Socialists share much ideology with the COMMUNIST party they use so often to antimidate and envoke fear."
Does that help this discussion any? I doubt it. I want neither for my country.

I don't necessarily agree with Afterhours, but I don't see the Communist Party used by Liberals and Socialists to invoke fear. If you have any examples that would be helpful.

I think what Afterhours was saying is that in the article that started all this, the author uses fear of the Nazi party to push her conservative views. However there are common threads in both Far-Right wing politics and Nazism. The same could be said for far-left wing politics but you don't see the far-left writing articles saying we are becoming Nazis.
 
i do not truly think that most people understand the ideals, and the politics of the NAZI party, its birth, its growth and its rise to power....

if they did, they would use it the way they do.

the NAZI party was the party of the people....the working people, the middle class of Germany.

they blamed the woes of the people on outside forces, mainly the jews, but also other races and countries. the rallying cry in Austria was "one people, one country, one leader".

they were against socialism, and communism...they disliked the upper classes

now we look at the current american conservative ideology...

we are scapegoating latinos, mexicans and all immigrants legal and illegal. much like Hitler targeted the jews, and the gypsy's.

we say things like..."america, love it or leave it" , "why do i have to press one for english" or the ever popular "i want my country back" or "takeing back america"

very similar to the nationalistic propaganda pushed by the NAZI party

people complain that prayer is taken out of schools...

yet they are ignorant to the fact that germany has state sponsored churches. the state took taxes from the people and gave them to churches.

so while i am not accusing anyone of being a NAZI, the use of the NAZI party to strike fear into people is ludicrous if you look at the similarities of some of the core values of both political parties.

PS: does it help the discussion.....?

YES IT DOES, MORE INFORMATION IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN LESS INFORMATION.
 
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I don't necessarily agree with Afterhours, but I don't see the Communist Party used by Liberals and Socialists to invoke fear. If you have any examples that would be helpful.

I think what Afterhours was saying is that in the article that started all this, the author uses fear of the Nazi party to push her conservative views. However there are common threads in both Far-Right wing politics and Nazism. The same could be said for far-left wing politics but you don't see the far-left writing articles saying we are becoming Nazis.

While this doesnt happen often I am going to agree with Dino about the whole right wing part of the nazi's.

Totalitarian regimes differ from older concepts of dictatorship or tyranny. Totalitarian regimes seek to establish complete political, social and cultural control, whereas dictatorships seek limited, typically political, control. Two types of totalitarianism can sometimes be distinguished: Nazism and Fascism which evolved from "right-wing" extremism, and Communism, which evolved from "left-wing" extremism. Traditionally, each is supported by different social classes. Right-wing totalitarian movements have generally drawn their popular support primarily from middle classes seeking to maintain the economic and social status quo. Left-wing totalitarianism has often developed from working class movements seeking, in theory, to eliminate, not preserve, class distinctions. Right-wing totalitarianism has typically supported and enforced the private ownership of industrial wealth. A distinguishing feature of Communism, by contrast, is the collective ownership of such capital.

The Communist part is what I am going to disagree with you on Dino.

While both parties(rep and dem) ultimately use a form of fear they go about it completely differently.
From the way the current administration and past "Left Wing" administrations is going about it, I personally think it is blatantly obvious they are attempting to openly practice a form of communism.
The past "Right Wing" administrations, in my time, are no better they just had a different approach A.K.A. Fascism.

I must state not all "Left or Right Wing" past administrations attempted such things, but some have.
 
...

the NAZI party was the party of the people....the working people, the middle class of Germany.

they blamed the woes of the people on outside forces, mainly the jews, but also other races and countries. the rallying cry in Austria was "one people, one country, one leader".

they were against socialism, and communism...they disliked the upper classes

now we look at the current american conservative ideology...

we are scapegoating latinos, mexicans and all immigrants legal and illegal. much like Hitler targeted the jews, and the gypsy's.

we say things like..."america, love it or leave it" , "why do i have to press one for english" or the ever popular "i want my country back" or "takeing back america"

very similar to the nationalistic propaganda pushed by the NAZI party

...

That's gotta be the most hogwash I've heard in a long long time.

Jews were typically, though not always, natural born citizens or naturalized citizens of (read: legally living in) the country they lived in during WWII. They did not stage protests. They did not demand the state treat them better than the other citizens. They simply were portrayed as heathens because most were not Messianic and refused to give up their beliefs to save themselves, lest they be damned. Hitler and the Nazi party did this because they needed something tangible to rally the people around.

Being an illegal "immigrant" in the USA today, is... well... illegal. There isn't some crazy political movement to rally the troops and citizens to drive them out. Heck, most politicians don't even talk about the topic at all. This is nothing at all like the Nazi party. Yet, those people feel the need to protest, rally, parade, and use/abuse our internal social services.

There is virtually no similarity between the two.

...

yet they are ignorant to the fact that germany has state sponsored churches. the state took taxes from the people and gave them to churches.

so while i am not accusing anyone of being a NAZI, the use of the NAZI party to strike fear into people is ludicrous if you look at the similarities of some of the core values of both political parties.

I thought this was the entire point being made by this thread. There are big things happening as of late. Things like government with partial ownership of companies that they are "bailing out". Government involvement in bank loans. Government stepping in and telling us what our schools can and can't teach or allow. The government giving us "tax breaks" that they then recoup at the end of the year. It all smacks of too much involvement and not enough oversight.

Look at the similarities and consider. Perhaps it means nothing. Perhaps it might serve as a warning. Regardless, I think you just contradicted yourself, didn't you?
 
perhaps you rec. one of these propaganda emails....they were all over the internet.

#1

My mom was a homemaker and dad worked all his life and paid into SS. She
grew up during the depression, watched her husband go overseas to fight in
WW II a year after their marriage, and then she went on to raise, feed and
clothe 3 children, scrounging to buy food, clothing and medical costs. I'm
sorry, but I can't see how the Senate can justify this slap in the face to
born and bred, or naturalized citizens. It is already impossible to live on
Social Security alone. If they give benefits to "illegal" aliens who have
never contributed, where does that leave us that have paid into Social
Security all our working lives?

The Senate voted this week to allow "illegal" aliens access to Social
Security benefits. Attached is an opportunity to sign a petition that
requires citizenship for eligibility to receive s oc ial services. If you do
not wish to sign the petition yourself, please for! ward on to anyone you
think might be interested. *Linda Harris
*

PETITION FOR: President Bush


#2

PETITION FOR: President Bush, Gov. Schwarzenegger, and Congressman Dana Rohrbacher

Gentlemen and Mr. President: The petition below is a protest against the recent senate vote to allow illegals access our social security!

We demand that you and all congressional representatives require citizenship for anyone to be eligible for social services in the United States. We further demand that there not be any amnesty given to illegals, and NO free services or funding, or payments to and for illegal immigrants. NO free COLLEGE education, when American citizens have to get loans to pay for their childrens' education.
We are fed up with the lack of action about this matter and are tired of "paying" for services for illegals!

======
Agree or Delete: Instructions to sign are at the bottom.

1. [Name]
2. [Name]
3. [Name]
4. [Name]
5. [Name]
7. [Name]
8. [Name]
9. [Name]


To add your name, click on "forward" or copy and paste. You will be able
to add your name at the bottom of the list and then send it to your friends.

If you don't forward the petition and just stop it, we will lose all these names. If you do not want to sign it, please just forward it to everyone you know. Thank you!!!

THE 500TH PERSON SEND IT ON TO THE FOLLOWING
E-MAIL ADDRESSES:


DanaRohrbacher@mail.house.gov

governor@governor.ca.gov

MikeHonda@mail.house.gov

Senator@boxer.senate.gov

Senator@feinstein.senate.gov

President@WhiteHouse.gov

Thank You!

have you rec. the one with Obama's name inserted instead of GW Bush? that is circulating also.

take a short trip to ALI-PAC website....people are being scapegoated, whether you want to admit it or not.
 
Hi Skydvr....
Thank you for the thread...
:welcome:

peanut-butter-jelly-spreader-2.jpg


Anyone....?
 
Intriguing thread, at the very least.

I won't dissect every point for support or contraindication. A couple of things stand out, though. Dino mentioned that Austria capitulated to Germany under threat of war. That is absolutely true. Read, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," by William L. Shirer and it spells it out crystal clear.

The other thing that stood out to me was, the statement in the OP, "We were led to believe. . . ." To this day, we are led to believe various things. We are rarely told the facts and are left to make our decisions based on incomplete, biased information. Frankly, when you see corrupt politicians re-elected over and over and over again for 50+ years, you KNOW that people are not concerned with fact anyway. They hear what they want to hear and nothing more. People believe what they want to believe and nothing more.

It's true in every facet of every person's life and quite truly, factually, it is horrendously rare that someone is of open enough mind to really consider any issue or ideology with no bias whatsoever.

With that admittedly crass accusation, however, I have to be the first to stand forth and admit that it's probably not possible anyway because it simply isn't possible for any one person to have all of the information relevant to any ideal. It's even less likely for any group of individuals to have all information available because even though you have many minds working together, individuals tend to obfuscate and cloud reality through their perceptions and their ideologies as a group become worse than those of the individuals in the group.

So, when we have groups of people attempting to work together, it's critical that individuals set aside the differences in details and work toward an overarching creed upon which all can easily agree. Not an easy thing to do when people are selfish, self-centered creatures. If you look at the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, they are very short documents. They don't dig into the minutia of daily detail, they only establish some critical overarching points with far-reaching effects.

We will not be able to apply that same idea of broad definitions to our modern times for one simple reason: Every individual is far too concerned about his own well-being rather than the well-being of the whole country. Sure, we hear people espouse the idea that they are concerned for everyone as a group but there is always the underlying caveat, ". . . if they do it my way."

In this sense, we are all politicians, attempting to foist our own ideals upon everyone else instead of working toward a common good. Part of it, of course, is because we can't all agree on what the common good really is. The rest of it is complex and multi-faceted and has become ever more complex through the past couple of centuries.

Here are some things we should all agree on, though, as Americans:

We want freedom but we understand that freedom comes with responsibility. The more freedom you want, the more responsibility you must be willing to take upon yourself and therefore, take back from the government. (Start getting ready to grow your own food and chop your own wood to heat your homes.)

We believe in the rule of law which is to say that government does have its place but that its place is very specific and very limited.

Nothing is free. Anyone who is getting their sustenance for free better have a very good reason for it, ergo, disability, tragic harm, etc. Otherwise, if your eyes, arms, legs and mind are working right, get out there and do something worthwhile with 'em.

Those are just examples. We can make a list but the list will, by necessity, be very short.

Personally, there are many ideals with which I disagree but I see that letting those disagreements stand in the way of bigger pictures is only going to serve to impair the ability of all of us to accomplish any truly worthwhile thing.

In the meantime, as we debate and talk, the serpents silently steal in beneath our feet and destroy us.

--Wag--
 
What a great post Wag!

You hit the nail on the head with the paragraph about the near impossibility of 'people working together and setting aside differences' when I was watching the healthcare debate today. It seemed that neither side was willing to be an honest broker because it would make them weak in the eyes of the opposition and in front of the world on TV. Grandstanding on both sides of the debate...and the country needs some compromise. How about grabbing the low hanging fruit that both could live with, and move from their incrementally?
 
Wag, I'm impressed....nice. I'd suggest a minor alteration: "Start growing your own food and chopping your own wood" Instead of "start getting ready to"... Yes, to truly be free it is helpful that we are not overly needy. If we need tended, we are sheep.
 
Recently, I've encountered people who live, "off the grid." This is a prime location for that kind of living. Rural area with cheaply available land, weather not too harsh, plenty of sun and wind, artesian well water not terribly difficult to obtain, etc. Most of these people I meet are what you might be inclined to call, "hippies," or, "hippy rejects," from the 60's! :D Regardless, they take great pride in their independence and they get along quite well for the most part.

It's not something, "city folk," understand very well. You can only grow so many tomato plants in your 600 square foot back yard. Or your 3,000 square foot back yard. And if you HAD enough land to grow enough to support your family and also provide a cash income to yourself, you'd still be subject to the usual calamities of nature which impede your ability to survive. Not something to take lightly.

You think you want a well-drilling rig in your back yard while they punch down for water? Assuming you can even get the permits for it if you live in the city! Want to generate some wind power for your home? $40,000 off the top to save $1,500 a year so your payoff is 25+ years. Maybe it's a worthwhile investment. What happens if you have an equipment failure? And the company is out of business after five years because the U.S. government support for the company has been withdrawn? Not to mention, they're typically noisy beyond belief. NIMBY is going to play a part, to be sure.

Yeah. I know. Lots to think about. The above only barely and briefly scratches the surface. Most people who speak of personal independence are living in a dream world. Some have it right but they are very few in a practical sense. The hippies I mentioned above are still working for, "the man," because they need jobs with cash incomes in order to make ends meet.

Practically speaking, living in society is a big plus. Having other people around you gives you strength, comfort, ease, convenience, entertainment, internet, an income (for the most part), support, etc. ad infinitum. Although you may not necessarily live without all of those things just by going off grid, the character of each those things changes quite dramatically.

How is this relevant to the OP? The fact is, yes, we should always be willing to criticize our government, our politicians, each other and our practices and beliefs. It's a worthwhile endeavor. Blind faith in our system is intolerable but so is blind tolerance and complacency. Rather than become a despairing nut job survivalist and overly willing to kick the whole system into the trash can, 'twould be better to reform it in ways which are valuable to all. There's the rub, though.

It implies that some of the things you (all of us) hold sacred and dear may have to be compromised but very often, that's the nature of working together toward a higher purpose. Hypothetically speaking, you think my beliefs are bad things? You may very well be right but that's hardly the point. I think your beliefs are bad too and that's not the point either and ultimately, it doesn't matter. We find that we always agree when it comes to the big, overall picture. That we have common ideals, as mentioned above, but if we let the little things creep in and get in each others' way, we don't get much done and it becomes a bickering fest like a bunch of school kids.

It's like all of us wanting to climb the mountain together but allowing ANY particular distraction along the trail slow you down or stop you. Yep. There's a river full of diamonds next to the path but you know what, I don't care about 'em. Even if you do, we need to still progress together and if we reach our higher goal, we can come back and address the little things we passed up along the way.

Again, though, it's just tough for people to give up the things they think are important when so many others think they are insignificant. The true measure of insignificance will be determined by how much a particular issue helps our hurts our common cause. Its a vicious circle and a tough one to break down.

--Wag--
 
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