Affirmative Action

Thinker62

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Quote  (Race24x)
Like is there still a need for Affermative action . Shouldnt the best person for the job get it regardless of color religion etc .
Quote (Thinker)
Race24x, you bring up a serious and interesting issue to be sure. Affirmative Action would be an endless debate, and really would deserve its own thread or forum. Mr. Lott's original comments did not express support or non support of affirmative action; it expressed support of a segregationist platform, and a platform of superiority and disdain for non-Whites. [/QUOTE]
I hessitate to start this thread, mainly because I have some mixed feelings on the subject. However, I will begin with this quote from Busabullet:
(Busabullet)
Thinker you have some very good points, but I believe that people are so wrapped up in this affirmative action stuff that they truly over look who is the most qualified !! ( regardless of the skin color,race or sex) [/QUOTE]
My comments thus far have not addressed the validity or continuing need for Affirmative Action. So I want to start off by saying that I have strong feelings in support of both of these quotes...The Most Qualified Person Should Get The Job! However, with that said, we have to deal with the historical inequities that largely contributed to forming a society in which one group has had advantages and better opportunities which enevitably have a disproportionate percentage of "qualified" people. Affirmative Action was designed to correct this phenomenon. It may not seem fair that innocent people today should have to pay for the sins of ancestors. I am sympathetic to this feeling. But I don't know of any other way to correct the situation. The main question in mind mind is whether the job is complete. When do we say enough is enough, and permanently remove the training wheels from society?

In my opinion the dissolution of Affirmative Action should be gradual, but should have definate end dates. I am no expert, but in my opinion, it is time for Affirmative Action relative to employment to END. There is enough opportunity for people entering the job market to get the training they need to compete for jobs. However, I am not prepared to say that Affirmative Action relative to education should be ended yet. I do not believe that kids across the board have equal access to resources and opportunity. There are also peripheral issues regarding culturally biased tests and so forth. I therefore believe that educational programs are still needed to give kids the tools they need to later compete head to head for employment. But there needs to be an end date these programs as well. I just don't think that we are there yet.

I am sure many will dissagree with me, but that is the way I see it.

Thinker
 

Tree

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AA has never played a part in what I do now. (Mechanical design). Fortunately there is a huge diversity of qualified (or people who can bs their way into the positions) individuals in this field. Although I do hate the forigners coming over to the U.S. on a visa and taking jobs away from local folks.

I also think it depends on your geographical reigon.

The mid-west has a huge problem with nepetisim (sp). It's not what but who you know or who you are related to.

Later,

Steve
 

STUNNAH

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Affirmative Action,

A topic of much discussion in the past and is resurfacing at present.  

At it's onset this program was developed to give all minorities the opportunity for advancement that was being with held for one reason or another.  Generally in the southern states your success was dependent on who you knew or where you came from, even the status of your family.  Therefore, dependent of those issues you could basically determine your path to success.  Affirmative Action was supposed to give minorities that did not have those strenghts but that were equal in ability and knowledge an opportunity to move in to positions of employment and once employed into positions of management.

However over the years Affirmative Action has been abused and the trend was set that allowed unqualified minorities to be hired into or moved into positions that they simply were not qualified to perform.  This caused a great concern with the majority(rightly so) and other minorities that were qualified but had been passed over for one reason or another.

So it is my opinion that there is still a need for a form of Affirmative Action but it's meaning should be redefined as to eliminate the potential for abuse of a program that was meant to provide a fair field for all.
 

busabullet

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Affirmative Action was supposed to give minorities that did not have those strenghts but that were equal in ability and knowledge an opportunity to move in to positions of employment and once employed into positions of management.

However over the years Affirmative Action has been abused and the trend was set that allowed unqualified minorities to be hired into or moved into positions that they simply were not qualified to perform.  This caused a great concern with the majority(rightly so) and other minorities that were qualified but had been passed over for one reason or another.

So it is my opinion that there is still a need for a form of Affirmative Action but it's meaning should be redefined as to eliminate the potential for abuse of a program that was meant to provide a fair field for all.
STUNNAH, man you hit the nail right on the head !! That was what I was trying to say on the other thread. It seems society is so wrapped up in this (especially here in California) that they will put a persons race or sex ahead of their qualifications. Therefore you get individuals in critcal positions that do not know what they are doing, essentally the blind leading the blind for lack of better term. And in my opinion that is not the message we want to sent to our youth in America. What happen to strive to be the best you can be and you will succeed ! I'm not saying to do away with affirmative action ,But it needs a drastic makeover.
 

Big O

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A friend of mine at work were talking about this. We make the same money, live in the same neighborhood, and our daughters are in the same school district, and are the same age. If they both graduate with the same GPA, my friend's daughter would get accepted to a college over my daughter strictly because she's African American. He says it's fair, I disagree. When I graduated high school my friend got a grant for college because he is part Hawaiian, my ex got money because she's Taiwanese. If you take a test for some government jobs you get extra points added on because you are a minority. I agree that something should be done to correct the inequities in our society but I also understand why some people are not happy with the way it's being done.

I agree with Busahigg on this one...it's a tough subject.
 

busahigg

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That's what I wanted to say without all the explanation.........

Sometimes I cannot believe how people act in today's workforce. Even in the military there is still prejudice.......I'm sure you guys have heard this. It is not the 60's anymore, and the Civil Right's movement is over. Why do people still dwell on the color of someone's skin? Does it really matter? The only reason there are pigment differences in people is; 1. They are from a different region of the world(descendents); 2. What would the world be like with one tone of people? Look....in one hundred years it's not going to matter anyways because so many people today are having children that are "mixed". Then where the hell will affirmative action be?

We won't need it. But for now......I believe it is an issue in every facet of the workforce, from Industry to technology to the military to wallstreet. On the other hand.......did you see the founder of BET (can't remember his name) Robertson I think, will be the first black owner of a major league sports franchise ever? Jordan doesn't count I guess. But there are some very powerful people of color in America.....so maybe things will get better.

I mean, they have to right?
 

hank

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I think it's great being a white middle-aged male, all kinds of opportunities, especially if you work in big government.
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race24x

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Hmmmm Very tough subject also . I say alot depends on the location . I live in Maine and the way of life here is very different . I was born in NY . I can see many points from all but it does boil down to AA is an antiquated system that I believe should have been fixed over time and now it is to late . I think they should do away with it all together . Whats next AA for the average white heterosexual male because the past Affirmative action has caused it to go the other way . Everyone has points for and against but I think if you look at it from a broader country wide perspective you will find that it does more harm than good . Including more reason sorry excuses for hate crimes more fuel for people like the KKK etc thats all they seem to talk about . I still believe the best qualified person should get the job regardless of male female black white hispanic asian it doesnt matter its a job and it should be done by the best most qualified person for it . Schools exepting people by color because they need to meet a certain quota doesnt teach the best students either . In todays world atleast in the next generation I hope that the decline in prejudice continues as I believe it has in the past .
 

hank

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Here's an example. I used to work in government. In a Man’s field (Physical Plant). What happened over the years was all new middle level supervisors hired were woman secretaries. Really. One didn't know the difference between a file cabinet and a boiler (I'm not kidding) and there salary's are $50,000+ a year. Man did that place suck...
 

rgd808

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wow interesting subject.
Here is my 2 cents.

I grew up in a very poor nieghborhood that is now considered the hood or ghetto. I'am white yet as a young child my school was filled with blacks. the block I lived on only had 2 white families and mine was one of them. I was the only white kid on my little leauge team for 4 years. my point is I grew up as the minority without hardly any racism.

I grew up wanting to be a police officer and when I was 19 I took the written test and was ask what my race was because if I was a minority then I wouldn't need as high of score to pass. I told them I was white and passed the test anyway.

I then proceeded to take the physical agility test and found out if you were a woman you could do less and still pass.
I passed this test as well and it would be 2 weeks before the chosen people was posted. I show up thinking I was a shoe in passing my test with flying colors and when I look at the list my name wasn't there. I was devestated and ask why, and the response I got was they had to hire a certain number of minorities and women and didn't need as many white men this round.

That is my experience with AA and I'm not bitter because I know there is still racism and until racism ends minorities and women will always need something in place to help them get the oppurtunities they deserve.

Bob
 

STUNNAH

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Affirmative Action as I stated in my last post has been abused...Let's compare it with say Government Subsidized Housing...This sort of assistance was started in the early 1900's to help struggling families...How many of you know generation's of families that have lived in housing developments forever...It was meant to be a pick me up not a way of life...So that system much like Affirmative Action needs a overhaul...

Is there still a need for both? Yes but neither can continue to be abused in the manner which they have been accustomed to. It is still a fact that minorities need help in some instances to get a start but that does not mean a continued crutch thru life...

Quality minorities deserve a chance at a quality life and an opportunity to earn it...
 

Thinker62

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Catch 22!

I grew up in Chicago where you couldn't be a cop unless you were Irish, and I forget what you had to be in order to be a fireman. It was bad, very bad! In situations like that, AA was necessary to prevent a complete subversion of the testing process. But now, I think that abuse of the testing process is less likely, so AA should go away, or as many have stated...be revamped. To me it would be much more appropriate to put programs in place to help minorities prepare for the job or the test, but legitimately more qualified people should get the job.

Thinker
 

STUNNAH

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Thinker,

I agree with some of your last post but not entirely...We should always continue preparing for the next step but if you never have minorities in positions of say conducting assessments then you leave an avenue for the friend or good ole boy concept to rear it's ugly face...Affirmative Action should demand that the hiring and promotion process be fair and equatiable for all when that field is made even then the most qualified person should be rewarded...
 

Thinker62

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There is side effect to this that I have to point out. By now, most people here have figured out that I am black, African American, person of color....whatever is popular at the moment. The designation keeps changing, but for some reason my color stays the same. But I digress.

Anyway, from age 13, I went to school 6 days a week, and every single summer as well. I worked my ass off, had a very high GPA and test scores. I earned everything I ever got.

It sucked being admitted to a top university on my own merit and having people just assume that I got a free ride, or bumped more qualified individuals. When I compared my credentials to those who were brave enough to say something, I was better than most. (I still can't spell and have terrible handwriting though).

What can you do?

Thinker
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Thinker62

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I used to have my picture on my Avatar. I guess I need to re-do that. I don't care either Hank...sometimes I forget till my hand passes by my face...

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Thinker
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rgd808

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I used to have my pictuer on my Avatar. I guess I need to re-do that. i don't care either Hank...sometimes I forget till my hand passes by my face...

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Thinker
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wow thinker

you just reminded me of being a kid. I would forget I was white sometimes.

ps. don't digress on your designation. you are an american just like me. I wish we could drop all the subtitles.
 

Thinker62

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The designations don't bother me. We need to be able to describe ourselves and others. The designations should hold no more importance than tall, short, skinny, fat, bald, muscular, etc. The trouble is when people try to define character or intelligence into them.

"He is really tall, so he must be stupid" just doesn't make sense.

Thinker
 

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