2 Fingers??? Or 4???

[JINKSTER]

Bill, I guess I don’t understand this part.



Are you saying that having a better grip will prevent head shake or stop head shake after it has occurred?

"stop"?...no.."prevent"?...possibly...and i guess i could've worded it better and missed the point of what i really meant to say and what i guess i meant to say was..."for me?..without an opposed grip on the bars?..FEEDBACK is greatly diminished (for me)...and it's the feedback that WARNS me of approaching such anomolies as head-shake and tank-slappers as without an opposed grip?...potholes and surface irregularities can initiate such..been my experience anyways.


I think you will find most use push as opposed to pull steering when riding a motorcycle.

So do i...again...it's a "Feedback Amplifier" issue for me.



Who is preaching all four is the best way in this thread? Can you clarify this statement? It seems to be directed at me. If so you need to read my post again.

Uhm..i directed nothing at anyone..just shared my thoughts and opines on the topic at hand..please dont read anything personal into it..but out of curtousy to you i did go back andf re-read your post cause i couldnt believe something even got made of my shared thoughts and the only thing i found that could've possibly triggered any undertones of anomosity from me?..might've be this..
" Some instructors are adamant that four fingers have to be used. However, I have never found it in the curriculum that is it “requiredâ€￾. "

outside of that?..i aint gotta clue how you couldve taken anything i shared "personal"...or?..directed at anyone as it was not.


Don’t get me wrong. I’m all in favor of 2 fingers on the front brake in high performance sport bike riding but for other reasons than you giving. I do feel however that teaching 4 fingers to new riders is justified. Those who have built the curriculum of those classes have spent far more time researching and teaching the target students than anyone you will likely find on a motorcycle forum.

oh..here we go...

"I do feel however that teaching 4 fingers to new riders is justified."

See..i dont...cause this way?...you dont hafta "break bad habits" and re-teach/re-learn..then again?..i'm a big fan of teach'em the right way the first time...but the cool thing is?..we can agree to disagree without being dis-agreeable.

L8R, Bill.

 

[Tufbusa]

I've been covering clutch/frt-brake w/ 2 fingers for well over the past decade or so..and ever since i've adopted such a hold?..nothing else feels right...it all just makes sense to me..2 fingers is plenty of power to get either job done and my pinky/ring fingers oppose my thumb at the furthest outward point of control to leverage/damp the bars and keep any ugly head shake/tank slap action from cropping up when the going gets wild..whereas...if i/you/we lay all four across the levers?..we got "Push" (via our palms) but no real "Pull" unless of course you're pulling against the levers themselves..which imho?..aint a real good idea at all...and i'd hafta question any org preaching or teaching that all four on the levers is the best way?...bull...donkey...but all those egotistical folks with all their certs, credentials and liscenses always seem to have a real high opinion of themselves...and of course...their way is always the only way..

which is kinda why i dont participate...seems there always some hair trigger 30 something know-it-all frothing at the mouth looking for a chance to scream at this old dawg...and it always makes me snarl.

then i get sent home...

feel'in all bad and psychotic about myself.

but of course there's always more than one way to skin a cat!

Bill, you make some excellent points there dude!

Your push/pull point is one worth praise. There is a huge difference in driving a bike and riding a bike. If you are simply driving the bike, four fingers over the levers and pushing the direction you wish to turn works quite well. However, if you graduate to riding that puppy you'll soon learn just how difficult it is to get a bike to turn at high speeds. It takes muscle, lots of muscle to turn a bike at high speed. I cannot do it by just pushing on a bar. I have to push on one and pull on the other to get the response required to get that heifer over on her lips without using up the length of two football fields. Unless you have velcro grips and gloves you cannot properly turn with four fingers over the levers.

I'll put it this way, the four finger method works very well as long as you obey the speed limits. As well as does the push the direction you wish to turn. In parking lots and city streets, it's the proper way to steer. It's when you hit the track or decide to push the envelope on the back road twisties that you'll find yourself in a pickle if you are going to fast to make the corner and can't expedite the turn because the only way you know is pushing on the bar. That's where you'll pay a serious price for using old school techniques for high performance riding!

Thanks for point that out Bill! Good Post!

 

[JINKSTER]

Bill, you make some excellent points there dude!

Your push/pull point is one worth praise. There is a huge difference in driving a bike and riding a bike. If you are simply driving the bike, four fingers over the levers and pushing the direction you wish to turn works quite well. However, if you graduate to riding that puppy you'll soon learn just how difficult it is to get a bike to turn at high speeds. It takes muscle, lots of muscle to turn a bike at high speed. I cannot do it by just pushing on a bar. I have to push on one and pull on the other to get the response required to get that heifer over on her lips without using up the length of two football fields. Unless you have velcro grips and gloves you cannot properly turn with four fingers over the levers.

I'll put it this way, the four finger method works very well as long as you obey the speed limits. As well as does the push the direction you wish to turn. In parking lots and city streets, it's the proper way to steer. It's when you hit the track or decide to push the envelope on the back road twisties that you'll find yourself in a pickle if you are going to fast to make the corner and can't expedite the turn because the only way you know is pushing on the bar. That's where you'll pay a serious price for using old school techniques for high performance riding!

Thanks for point that out Bill! Good Post!

Thanks for the kudos Tuff..and yeah..if these poor newbs that are getting taught the 4 finger shid ever get to riding hard enough to smile?..they're gonna find out the hard way why 2 fingers is more betterer..or?..heal up and take up chess..or bowling.

 

[JINKSTER]

PS: after-thought/laugh:

"I wonder how these instructors teach 4 finger when a newb shows up on a pre-owned bike with pazzo shorties?"

Marine Corp Instructor: GET THAT PINKY FINGER ON THERE YOU MAGGOT!



Here's a pick of me from back in '06 at the fall busa bash...that's grandpabusa right behind me..and my visor is up cause we just got done runn'in he11 outta the dragon and i was so heated up my visor was fogging up..we were just "tooling along" and outta the woods pops up the killboy photographers...busted..open visor...but?..check out the grip!

even back then! LOL

 

[Tufbusa]

I can do better that that Bill! Here is another common situation that REQUIRES two fingers to survive.

Early this season I found myself spinning up the rear on a left hand turn. The tire caught traction and snapped like a buggy whip tossing my a$$ (Highside) like a rag doll. I had two fingers over each lever and with the two remaining fingers and thumb I had a death grip on the bars. My a$$ was completely verticle and I was staring down at the headlight. She bucked and shook her head like a wild horse but I managed to hang on and come back to earth straddled over the fuel tank, smashing the family jewels but I managed to hang on until she straightened up. Had I had four fingers over the levers I would have instantly been launched at 80 knots.

So, IMHO always having a grip on the bars is detromental to a long and healthy life on two wheels.

I always incourage intermediate riders to advance to the two finger method. Nothing wrong with beginners using four and some bikes have brakes so poor it takes four but eventually, it's wise to consider keeping at least two fingers available to grip the bar.

 

[Professor]

oh..here we go...

"I do feel however that teaching 4 fingers to new riders is justified."

See..i dont...cause this way?...you dont hafta "break bad habits" and re-teach/re-learn..then again?..i'm a big fan of teach'em the right way the first time...but the cool thing is?..we can agree to disagree without being dis-agreeable.

L8R, Bill.

I can agree to disagree. Not a problem at all. In that case all each of us can do is put out enough info out there to let those decide what works for them.

I know there are always going to be several opinions on how to ride a motorcycle. The ways of inducing the turn on a bike for instance. Whether you are weighting the pegs, pushing your knee it the tank, press/counter steering, pushing you heal into the case/frame, shifting weight, etc or a combination of all of the various ways, some methods will work better for others. In many cases it has become an input they did not realize they were doing and they may be doing more than they intended.

I feel there is a method to the madness on the theory involved in teaching techniques. The skill involve teaching a task by muscle memory. You can make more precise movement if you are not maximizing the ability of the muscle. Drag a 150lb weight 1.3 inches across the desk. Drag a 2 lb weight 1.3 inches across the desk. Both are possible but I’m betting you the 150 lb weight is not going to move smoothly and may take a couple of attempts. Of course these are extremes and the brake movements will be in the middle of all this. I have way more grip strength in 4 fingers than 2. Tasks are usually initially a gross motor skill task which further develops into a fine motor skill. During this learning process the margin of error can make the difference between crashing or not. You have to remember the classes target a very wide range of students. The average student has never ridden a motorcycle. The curriculums have to be universal for all. While 95% maximum front brake lever pressure is great, 101% is a front tire skid and potential high-side. This is not even getting into the progressive application of the brake that the students have difficulty in learning.

Some of the same strength issues come up in counter steering. Humans have way more strength to push than to pull. You can easily demonstrate it at the gym or push someone away compared to pulling them to you. I agree a combination of both push and pull can be used and its advantage in a racing environment, but that is pretty advanced and not something a novice is usually ready to tackle.

 

[BusaWhipped]

oh..here we go...

"I do feel however that teaching 4 fingers to new riders is justified."

See..i dont...cause this way?...you dont hafta "break bad habits" and re-teach/re-learn..then again?..i'm a big fan of teach'em the right way the first time...but the cool thing is?..we can agree to disagree without being dis-agreeable.

L8R, Bill.

I'm going to have to disagree here as well Bill. The majority of the folks going through the MSF course will never sit on a Sport Bike. Try stopping a 950 lb cruiser with a single front rotor with 2 fingers and you'll most likely be filing an insurance claim to fix the rear end of some car. For those who jump on a sport bike, there are track days and performance riding schools to learn how to ride a performance machine.

 

[andy and the r man]

I read a lot about guys braking uses just 2 fingers... I was always taught at my MSF and Advanced MSF that this is a no no!!!

Thoughts??? I use 4 ..always... It just feels safer...

I drag 4 fingers on the ground to stop...

whatever feels right to you. I use 2 and it depends where on the lever I'll grab if I need to stop quickly or just roll up on a light etc