Reflash Or Pc/autotune Question

[Tb3]

First off, I'm straight up sorry for asking what is probably going to be a easy answer, but I'm just not finding any info here that pertains to my particular question.
I have a 11 busa, only mods are k&n air filter and cs one exhaust. I have the vance and hines header also but its not yet installed. I plan on putting it on this winter when I have more time. I was planning on getting the computer reflashed and dyno tuned after the header install, which I'm sure would be just fine as I have a very reputable dyno tuner local that specializes in hayabusa's. but I've been reading and hearing more and more about the power commander 5 with auto tune and how its better because its always changing/updating to keep up with your riding conditions and climate.
So would a reflash and dyno make more sense? or a pc5 with autotune?
I don't plan on any other mods, and if I do, it would be quite a ways off. and I haven't asked the local tuner about it as I'd like to get a little knowledge from the forum here first, if theres any to be had.
thanks in advance!

 

[nosbig]

You will still have to have a map made. Autotune has to have bike specific numbers to tune to.

 

[fallenarch]

I personally don't know why anyone would mess with an AutoTune unless they race or something. I have a PC5 and Autotune on my bike but I have never even used it. I had it dyno tuned and it's run perfect for 6 years now. Not saying it's not a good product but its a bit more trouble then most want. I got it because I thought it was continuously correcting the map. When I realized it was actually a data logger and you have to still manually update the map I was not thrilled. I would prefer to let a pro handle tuning as there is an art to a good tune and it's not easy.

 

[VIPER]

That is your best answer... ^^^^^^^ dont waste the money.

 

[Samaki]

I have a PCV and auto-tune on my 08 and it is fantastic and worth every penny. With auto-tune you set your target air-fuel ratio and tune it accordingly, to your specific mods, altitude, climate and riding type. Every engine is different. You can build as many maps as you want, save them and upload them as you wish, depending on what your requirements are. I have a "horsepower" map tuned to 13.0 AFR and a "economy" map tuned to 14.7 AFR and other maps in between. If you go this route I would recommend installing a POD-300 digital data display; it will save you a lot of time getting things right, plus it is fun to play with. I was never a big fan of the PC but now, having seen what the auto-tune can do, I am definitely convinced that it is worth the time and money to install and get the tuning right.

 

[fallenarch]

I have a PCV and auto-tune on my 08 and it is fantastic and worth every penny. With auto-tune you set your target air-fuel ratio and tune it accordingly, to your specific mods, altitude, climate and riding type. Every engine is different. You can build as many maps as you want, save them and upload them as you wish, depending on what your requirements are. I have a "horsepower" map tuned to 13.0 AFR and a "economy" map tuned to 14.7 AFR and other maps in between. If you go this route I would recommend installing a POD-300 digital data display; it will save you a lot of time getting things right, plus it is fun to play with. I was never a big fan of the PC but now, having seen what the auto-tune can do, I am definitely convinced that it is worth the time and money to install and get the tuning right.

Samaki, I don't dispute your post at all. However I do think most won't want to fumble with updating maps and would rather turn the key and ride. I just wanted to be sure the OP understood that the PC5 & Autotune do work, but most won't want or need the extra effort to get their map that little bit more perfect.

 

[Samaki]

It all depends what you want from your bike and how much you like to tinker with it. Having never had a PC on a bike this has been my first experience with one, and I must say I have been intrigued. I commute 15K per year, year round, so the auto-tune is very beneficial to me in that I can tune for best mileage (52.5 @ 14.7 AFR) or the best HP (198.8 at 13.0 AFR) and have summer and winter maps. True, it does take a time commitment to get it right but I find that quite enjoyable, surprisingly, since I am not a computer geek by any means. Five minutes is all it takes to extract your current map, accept of delete auto-tune trims modify the target AFRs for the next ride and upload the map back into the PC. A few dyno sessions and the cost will surpass that of the auto-tune and POD-300 combined. I know it is not for everyone, but for the gearhead who does not mind learning something new and investing some time, it is well worth it.

 

[Jake whitebird]

I had pc5 and auto tune on my 08. As said before it was neat to ride then jump into it and see how it corrected etc. but then, I'd upload the map from the night before, say a little cooler weather, then during the hot day I'd want to load that map. So on and so on. Plus carrying a laptop on a cross state ride blows. So I ripped all that junk off and went bazzaz zfi. Tons more power (runs all 8 injectors instead of 4). Then Powerhouse reflashed the ecu, plus kept the bazzaz on. No matter which route you take, wether it's pc5, or bazzaz, without refashibg the ecu you will forever have the timing retardation of lower gears, top speed limited, and pair valve activation. Now I'm turboed, and dyno tuned. Bazzaz is for sale.... lol. If it was me doing it all over again? Ecu editor and dyno tune all the way. Not a single extra ounce of electronics taking up trunk space

 

[Mythos]

but I've been reading and hearing more and more about the power commander 5 with auto tune and how its better because its always changing/updating to keep up with your riding conditions and climate.

Everything Samaki said and everything fallenarch said.

Yes, you can tune your own map with AT. NO, you don'y NEED a base map but if you have one, it will be better than starting from scratch. You can get a map to start with. I do not think DJ maps are your best option.

The AFR table is the most important thing. If you get a wussy AFR table, you won't get your best power. Get a good map like Brock's and Autotune it and you'll know you're working with a good AFR table. IDK if just going with 13 AFR throughout the table makes the best power at all rpm. Most maps have several AFRs throughout. That's the mystery to me.

If you start with a good base map, chances are you won't feel much difference but you will probably notice smoother flies response and maybe some other minor improvements. If you did not know you tuned it, you might not even notice. A good map is going to run almost the same as a custom tune if you are within a thousand feet of the elevation the map was made.

Get PC5 for eight injectors. They make it. Bazzaz is good but there is no Bazzaz ignition Module if you ever want to mess with that. There might be some othe ignition controller out there you can use with Bazzaz but I like having all DJ stuff on my 14. My busa has Bazzaz because at the time of purchase, that was the only thing for 8 injectors.

DJ AutoTune is not fast. You must make a run holding one throttle position and accept trims. Do it again a few times. Autotune whittles away correcting back and forth until it gives 0 trim or 1 or 2 which tells you those cells are tuned fro the AFR you have in your AFR table. You're done! Now you do the next throttle position. If you want to tune the whole map, you need to to do way over 100 many many times. 6th gear works best because it revs up slowest giving Autotune more time to correct itself. This is very methodical. It is not just "ride the bike and it tunes itself" by any means!! I probably did 30 runs various TPs, 120-180 mph. My top is still not perfect because I have not dared to do top speed and only came close a couple times. You gotta do each run a minimum of 3 times and accept the trims before you get it. As you can see Autotuning as good as a Brock map is a lot of dangerous work. I spent most of a summer Autotuning my 14 starting with a good base map. I did actually put all 13.2 in all cells of the AFR table. Not a hell of a lot better than the base map, really but it was fascinating to me. I think I like the multiple AFRs of the base map a tiny bit better.

Autotune samples at 10x/second which is slow compared to high end self tuners. 300x/second is a good tuner that will keep up with the fast up and down of a bike's rpm. Autotune works great for cruising. In that case, it actually does tune as you ride. It will keep the AFR pretty steady. Takes about a second or two to get it withn a few tenths of a number which is perfect for all practcal purposes........but when you sport ride, you're engine is going up and down the powerband and TP% is constantly changing. NO WAY can Autotune keep up with that. Not even close. Bazzaz is even slower sampling at 8x/second. I have the Z-fi and Z-afm but have not yet tried them together. LOTS of experience with DJ and Autotune on the 14 though.
Not quite an expert but I know this stuff.

If you get a flash, you will no longer have stock numbers in your ECU. You will no longer have the option to try different maps because maps are made for stock fuel numbers.

Many tuners suggest their flash along with a fuel module. That tells me a PC5 is the best first step. Flash later if you want.

Rather than flash, I suggest ECU Editor. Contact BoostbySmith. I got his module. Need to download software and then I will be able to flash my own ECU. EVERYTHING a tuner can do I can do myself and the ECU is not encoded with Woolich. Stays totally stock and can have stock numbers put back. ECU Editor module is about $200. It's mind boggling all the stuff you can do--much more than a flash does....if you want to get into it that much. You could map fuel straight to the ECU if you want but no Autotune.

To sum it all up, First get a PC5 for 8 injectors and try some maps. Second, get Autotune if you think you can stomach the high speeds on public roads or do some LSR and you'll have the perfect environment to self tune. Third, get ECU Editor. I would not flash. It's not necessary on a busa unless you don't care to spend the hours learning tuning --which is understandable. Tuning on the road is not riding anymore than tuning on a dyno. You will be spending your rides paying attention to your tuning technique and equipment instead of enjoying the ride. It's rewarding if you're interested but not everyone's cup of tea.

I have a tutorial on self tuning woith Autotune---currently screwed by Photobucket's third party restriction unless you pay the fee which I am not doing. I will load up the pics again some day ---soon I hope. I'm Rook over there.

http://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=82EE3378-978F-4244-17A47B554179390E

 

[Mythos]

hope you had time to read all that. You can't go wrong starting with the PC5 8 injectors. You'll use it no matter what you do in the future. If you're plug ad play and would rather ride rather than sit at your computer surfing tuning info, a flash is he way to go. Can't go wrong there either. You can always have stock values reprogrammed if needed. Don't know if ECU editor works on a previously flashed ECU but ask Greg Smith.

 

[POWERHOUSE]

I have to disagree with much of what you said . . . no offense, but I have about $30,000 worth of equipment and over 18 years of tuning that tells a different story.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, which I would point out is not backed up by any hard data. Seat of the pants feelings are not the way to "tune".
Yes, DJ maps are junk, and so are Brock's maps. In fact, a map that was done on a different bike is not correct, it is not your bike. Saying that a "good" map that was done within 1,000 feet of elevation is just as good as a custom tune is just wrong. Saying you can do everything a tuner can do through your ecu is nonsense. Mapping fuel through the ecu is a mistake. You really should put your bike on a good dyno so you can see how screwed up the map you spent the whole summer on really is.

IMHO, autotune is a waste of time, it is junk, and I respect your right to disagree.

 

[fallenarch]

Generally Good summary Mythos however I would add the following:

1. The bazzaz has the capability to add traction control, which is why one might lean that way IMHO.
2. While the PC5 only controls 4 injectors (the primaries), there is no need to do more than this unless you have a turbo, supercharger, or other more radical engine mod.
3. I believe in Dynos and good tuners, period.

 

[Samaki]

Great information Mythos, and my experience with AutoTune has mirrored yours. You are absolutely correct that this may not be everyone's cup of tea, and if not, go get a dyno tune. The key here is that a map made for one bike will not necessarily work on optimally your bike, even if the mod status is identical. AutoTune gives you the ability to tune your bike to the AFRs that you want in specific RPM and throttle positions that you choose based on how you are using your bike. Like you, I find this whole process fascinating and quite educational.

An AutoTuned map does not require that you fiddle with it constantly as temperatures change. The map requires no more maintenance than any other map you might have installed. Build an AFR based map, save the changes and delete the target AFRs and nothing else is required. The cool thing about it is that if you do want to build seasonal maps in order to maintain the same level of performance year round, you have the option to do so. I ride all year from 13 to 110 degrees, so in my case the effort needed to build two separate seasonal maps is well worth it.

 

[Mythos]

"Yes, DJ maps are junk, and so are Brock's maps. In fact, a map that was done on a different bike is not correct, it is not your bike. Saying that a "good" map that was done within 1,000 feet of elevation is just as good as a custom tune is just wrong. Saying you can do everything a tuner can do through your ecu is nonsense. Mapping fuel through the ecu is a mistake. You really should put your bike on a good dyno so you can see how screwed up the map you spent the whole summer on really is.

IMHO, autotune is a waste of time, it is junk, and I respect your right to disagree.

If what a tuner goes by is AFR, what else do you need than Autotune? Yeah it's slow but it will safely get you to whatever AFR you have in your AFR table. If a tuner can sample each cylinder separately, that might be a bit better than Auto tune but most people don't bother with that. My experience with Autotune compared to the base map was that there was not much difference, seat of the pants. I'm about 500 feet higher in elevation than the base map was made. I did what seems to me some pretty big adjustments but it made very little dif in how the bike ran. I agree that any map you can get is not going to be perfect in any bike other than the one it was made with. I don't know how much most of us would appreciate perfect compared to close. A dyno is a valuable tool but the real world us where we ride our bikes. A good tuner will always tune on the road after dyno tuning unless you just want big dyno numbers.

You can do everything and a lot more with ECU Editor than anyone offers with a flash. If Greg Smith is scamming us, I think we'd know by now.

https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/threads/gen-2-busa-ecu-flash.191243/

I'd like to put the bike on a dyno and try it compared to just the map but a better way to test is do some timed runs. I don't care so much how much hp a dyno tells me my bike is making with todays weather. What I care about is how fast the bike is now compared to before tuning changes. If I ever get to the point where I am maxing out the bike on a regular basis, I guess a tuner might be able to do something I can't do. Until then, I've spent my $300 on a tool I can use to learn what a tuner should already know. That's a lot better than going to to a tuner and not having a clue about what what he might have done. My engine is making a safe AFR at every rpm and TP so I don't see how it could be screwed up. Might be able to be a smidgen faster applying some techniques I don't know yet but that's for competition. WHo knows??? Maybe a custom tune is a huge amount better. I've never tried it but until I do, I'm happy with Autotune. I've explained how it works. I'd love to hear someone explain how it doesn't work and why a tuner can do something substantially better for the average rider.

1. The bazzaz has the capability to add traction control, which is why one might lean that way IMHO.

Bazzaz +QS +TC is an awesome module but very pricey. After owning a quickshifter for a while, I might very well go that rout but some of the better quikshifters out there also have the same settings. A quickshifter is so much fun, I'd spend big to have the most functions and settings--even for noncompetitive sport riding. Traction Control thrown in with the quickshifter is pretty enticing. It's probably worth the $1000+ that module costs.

Build an AFR based map, save the changes and delete the target AFRs and nothing else is required.

Yeah, or just turn AutoTune off in the software or use the Autotune switch. I leave it on all the time with target AFRs. It does tune on the fly for cruising and if you have your min/max adjustment set to a reasonably low number like %15, it isn't going to make much difference letting Autotune run anyway. If your conditions require more than a %15 change in fueling, just accept changes and do more runs until the AFR is achieved.

The cool thing about it is that if you do want to build seasonal maps in order to maintain the same level of performance year round, you have the option to do so. I ride all year from 13 to 110 degrees, so in my case the effort needed to build two separate seasonal maps is well worth it.

That was my thinking. Spend your $300 once and tune to your hearts content. I know of one guy who rode in the mountains and had his flashed fueling tuned for sea level run poorly. He ran Autotune at each TP% column through the rpms and fixed it.

I don't know how many people have the same experience but both my busa and my 14 are sort of sluggish and rough running large TPs under 3000 rpm. Not really a problem because there is not much reason to go WOT that low in rpm. but I can on my 14 because I zeroed out my trims with autotune from 2000 rpm. I have tuned even lower using first and second gear but I see no reason to try that for higher speed. Probably could if I wanted. I ran it as described in the tutorial link above. Took several runs but now it runs smooth as silk at full throttle all the way from 2000 freegin' rpm in 6th gear! I find that amazing. Here's the proof. The LCD-200 reads 98.3% TP which is WOT with my TPS set as it currently is. 2000 on the tac and also displayed lower RH on LCD. Snap open WOT in 6th gear. No shudders, no stutters.

and this is not too remarkable since the tuning was already fairly close to 13.5 AFR but it shows that Autotune does keep the AFR within .1 ~ .3 of your chosen AFR while cruising. Never going to do that for sport riding but you don't get either with a flash, alone.

 

[Mythos]

when all's said and done, what do competitive racers use EVERY time they run? They do a few test and tune runs with Autotune whether they have a flash, custom tune, PC5/Bazzaz map, whatever. So there ya go, like the PC5, you'll probably also have use for Autotune even if you flash. I don't have 18 years of tuning experience nor do I have 30k$ in equipment but you're going to be hard pressed to convince me that Autotune is good for poop. It works. An educated consumer is a hard sell.

 

[Mythos]

...and if ECU Editor has even one shortcoming compared to a flash, as is the case with fuel, timing and self tuning modules, you'll learn what can and should be done if you do ever go to a pro.

 

[Samaki]

You are absolutely correct Mythos. It does work. It does take a bit of time and effort to get your map(s) dialed in, but the process in itself is interesting and educational. A POD-300 or similar is a necessity in order to fully utilize the AutoTune and shorten the process. Strapping a computer to the tank bag, while workable, is not a practical solution, though I see why, for the sake of your video, you did so, as there is much more information there than on your POD-200. I keep my target AFR table cleared once I have reached an optimal tune. I leave my POD-300 on full time to monitor my AFR to TP readings and make minor adjustments as needed either manually or by putting target AFRs in those cells that are affected.

 

[POWERHOUSE]

A custom dyno tune properly done is NOT about the final horsepower and torque numbers. The bulk of time spent tuning on a dyno is at part throttle - steady state and cruise areas. A good dyno tune will give you excellent throttle response and more power and torque everywhere. In addition, on a dyno you can not only do the entire map in WAY less time than you spent educating yourself, you can touch on areas of the map you will never get normally on type of tuning you are doing. For instance, the first time you take your autotune setup up to 11,000 rpm is the first time it will be able to sample that area and make its slow corrections. You said it yourself, that you would have to "hit" that area several times for it to make its final adjustment. And btw - as far as differences in temperature or elevation, that is why you fuel injected bike has so many peripheral sensors - so it can make it's own adjustments from the base map.

Your autotune may very well work - it does not work as good as the proper equipment and a qualified and experienced tuner. Most people who purchase autotune do not take the time and effort you made with your own bike. You are using seat of the pants impressions to justify the money you spent. Akin to marrying an ugly girl and saying she's beautiful for the rest of your life. Again, you are entitled to your opinion, but I do think given the chance and the proper equipment, your approach and tendency to be thorough would be an asset on a dyno.

I give you credit for being dedicated and making it work for you, but it will never replace a proper custom dyno map, IMHO.

 

[Mythos]

Strapping a computer to the tank bag, while workable, is not a practical solution, though I see why, for the sake of your video, you did so, as there is much more information there than on your POD-200.

The predecessor to the POD-300 is the LCD-200. I have the LCD-200 and it is useful to monitor tuning and data logging but it's not capable of accepting trims. Too bad, it's capable of several other PC5 software functions including changing maps. I was under the impression that the POD-300 was somewhat limited in accepting trims, too. I need to have the laptop velcroed on the tank to get it done. It's not so bad. It's big enough to see easily and everything offered by the PC5 software is at your fingertips. You just need to find a way to keep the lid from blowing shut at high speed. I velcro it to a steering stem accessory bracket.

When I get there, POWERHOUSE, I'll try a custom tune and then I will know. It's just another $300. I've already spent about 1200 so what's another 300? I still think that since a lot of us are likely to have use for them after a dyno tune, a PC5 and Autotune are good first steps. True, if you don't want to mess with the stuff and just ride, leave the tuning up to an expert.

And btw - as far as differences in temperature or elevation, that is why you fuel injected bike has so many peripheral sensors - so it can make it's own adjustments from the base map.

yet we still have people who have fueling problems at high altitude and the problem gets fixed with a Power Commander. I believe the sensors work but do they work really well? If the oil pressure sensor is any indication of how sensitive the other sensors on the bike are, I can see why the ECU might not be able to adjust for all conditions.

 

[fallenarch]

The predecessor to the POD-300 is the LCD-200. I have the LCD-200 and it is useful to monitor tuning and data logging but it's not capable of accepting trims. Too bad, it's capable of several other PC5 software functions including changing maps. I was under the impression that the POD-300 was somewhat limited in accepting trims, too. I need to have the laptop velcroed on the tank to get it done. It's not so bad. It's big enough to see easily and everything offered by the PC5 software is at your fingertips. You just need to find a way to keep the lid from blowing shut at high speed. I velcro it to a steering stem accessory bracket.

Man this sounds like it's pretty dangerous! I have been waiting for a good integrated HUD so I never have to look away from the road at all. To be looking at all those numbers and things and trying to get the engine to high revs seems like an invitation to a law suit for DJ! Anyway, this is interesting and thanks for sharing your experiences. Maybe if you bought a tablet or something small. My surface pro is pretty small and can easily be carried on a motorcycle. It's also a tablet and full core i5 laptop. Obviously that means a smaller screen that's harder to see all that data.