Where oh where has common sense gone...

Tough one.
He's a pos for lying.
He's a pos for lying about military service and earning medals.

Are we so heated due to the nature of the lies? If to create a better persona he lied and said he volunteered to help HIV infected people in Africa for twenty years would we be as angry?
Capt do you want to criminalize lies? If so how would we define and differentiate them legally?


I like Jinksters idea.
 
Our criminal justice system has always used both statutory(codified) and case(disection based on earlier similar decisions)laws. The judicial paths of analysis can be frustrating to the citizen....it sometimes seems like they are "going around the block to go next door". The "wrongness" of the false claims of military medals seems lost in the above discussion but they will eventually begin honing it down to more direct and focused dialog. The District Courts of Appeal and the Supremes do it that way and clarity will eventually surface!
 
Complacency is killing our country... I wouldn't doubt it if we didn't hear someone say that we were discriminating against this man because he is a liar...

He is claiming that he made the same sacrifices as veterans and active service men and women. People treat veterans with a special care and respect. For someone to say that they served and then to find out that he never did is not only a disgrace but to me is the same things as saying he was a police officer or a doctor... I am all about Freedom of Speech but right is right and wrong is wrong.. try and spin it, try and explain it away, try to educate me and enlighten me to what the constitution stands for but in the end he was wrong, we must protect the Integrity and honor of those folks that have bravely served.. To dismiss this as something that should not be protected is an injustice....

cap

I think you took that one sentence out of context. Im all fit the guy getting punished. Unless there a law established for this type of lying, thats all it is. Just like how laws are established as to when you impersonate an emergency worker, leo, and im sure there are others as well, or when you purjor yourself.

The direction of complacency at me is shows that your taking this way to personal. The job of the people looking at this that you say have no common sense is to not make it personal.

I never said it shouldn't be protected or this guy shouldn't be punished. But the judges have to be careful as to what they do as it will become a precedence. Like or not.

this also is why the media is what it is, you say we're becoming complacent, yet this is the thing that weighs so heavy you got to bring it here? they know what gets people upset large or small and make it headlines.
 
Our criminal justice system has always used both statutory(codified) and case(disection based on earlier similar decisions)laws. The judicial paths of analysis can be frustrating to the citizen....it sometimes seems like they are "going around the block to go next door". The "wrongness" of the false claims of military medals seems lost in the above discussion but they will eventually begin honing it down to more direct and focused dialog. The District Courts of Appeal and the Supremes do it that way and clarity will eventually surface!

exactly
 
Where oh where has common sense gone...

Common sense is nothing more than a deposit of prejudices laid down by the mind before you reach eighteen. - Einstein

I think this is more about "Values" and changes we are seeing in our society. Some of our politicians have become like a bunch of Bananas, they are all crooked, yellow and they hang together. That is the example public servants like Alvarez is inspired by.
 
I am a Vet, and I have mixed feelings. I agree there is a slippery slope. The problem with adding too many laws, rules, is that you then have to add more to define the previous one. Look at the bullying stuff going on now. Used to be, "sticks and stones", but now even words are considered illegal (mostly because you aren't allowed to punch the bully in the teeth anymore to make him stop)(and I can count exactly three instances in my life where I did just that, but now I'd have a police record over it). Then it gets so convoluted that it doesn't make sense anymore. We've PC'd stuff up so bad.

I think the law would be better served if it were written about WEARING unauthorized medals (and there are some laws on the books about that now) vs. verbally claiming you have them. This PoS got caught and if he had ANY shame (obvoiusly not) he'd feel pretty bad about it. Public shaming and embarrassment (and maybe a stiff upper lip from a few REAL decorated service people) is probably enough. But see, now that a simple azz kicking is "assault" and the "legal system should handle it" is the preferred method, we clog up same system with BS that should have never gotten there. I would rather the SCOUTUS spend their time on the legality of Obamacare than this. This law could even stir up the problems with the stickers that people put on their vehicles (wings, badges, etc.), just tying up the legal system even further. If a guy puts a CIB sticker on his truck and he doesn't have one, are we going to put him in jail too?

Believe it or not, even SOLDIERS who KNOW better often try to pull off the same. I've seen high ranking officer promotion boards where the officer being boarded was wearing medals and wings HE/SHE DID NOT EARN in order to try and get a leg up on others (career ender). I always made sure the citation and order for any award I had was in my official fiche BEFORE I had it in ANY picture. And the onlybadge(s) I'm really interested in displaying are my Airborne and Air Assault badges :) but even those and $5 will only get me a Big Mac at McDonalds.
 
captain said:
Your joking right... Judges do it all the time.. If you do some checking with attorneys, at least the ones I have spoken to our universities don't teach law or the constitution anymore they focus on case precedent... Is that correct?

Ok, I'll give you the answer, another answer, and my limited knowledge of the issue in this case. Although I don't practice constitutional law, I've been a lawyer for over seventeen years, so I have a bit of an idea of how the system works.

The answer is that, yes, lawyers and judges look to laws and cases. Then they look to prior court opinions that have interpreted the law. Usually, if the opinion is from a higher court, lawyers and judges must follow the opinion. So, when the Supreme Court of the United States issues an opinion, everyone looks to it because the Court is usually interpreting the Constitution, or a federal law, or disputes between citizens of different states.

The other answer is that, you're right. Judges and lawyers "distinguish" cases based on their particular facts in attempt to argue, or reason, that the law or prior case does not apply to the particular facts of their case. Generally, however, courts and lawyers follow precedent. Sometimes, you can argue directly against an established law or prior case, if you believe that there is a good faith basis to argue that the law should be changed. That's how we ended up with laws like the Civil Rights Act of 1964. And that's how the law evolves.

Without reading the briefs in this case, the issue that the Supreme Court must address is the interplay between the statute and the First Amendment. So, the constitutional question for the Court is whether the Constitution protects lies, because the First Amendment says that "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech ...." If lies are protected by the First Amendment, then the statute is unconstitutional. So, this opinion will have far-reaching effects if the Court decides that lies are protected. They will certainly recognize the service of our military, and the honor bestowed upon those of unquestionable valor, and they may ultimately decide that the speech at issue--that is, a lie about service and valor in the military--deserves less protection, and that the statute is narrowly tailored to meet the government's interest. In that case, they'll find the statute constitutional.

Unfortunately, sometimes tough cases make bad law. If they decide that the First Amendment sometimes protects lies, what are the limits? The Supreme Court rarely decides limits, because each case brings new factual issues, and they typically leave those issues for the lower courts to decide. If they decide the First Amendment never protects lies, then you'll likely see many new laws that make lies--beyond those to governmental officials or judges or police officers--a crime. Like telling your employer you graduated from an Ivy League college, when it was a second-tier school, or telling the newspaper that you were at Ground Zero and are now destitute, when you were nowhere near that hallowed ground, or ... [insert your example here.]

Finally, law schools have a mandatory group of courses that they are required to teach, which usually take up at least the first of three years. The include contract law, constitutional law, property law, torts, federal procedure, criminal law and procedure, and legal research and writing. So, you learn by understanding the law, and how courts have interpreted the laws over time.

Sorry for the long explanation, but hope it helps. And for what it's worth, I believe that Medal of Honor, and other medals of valor, deserve protection, so that lies about being awarded them should receive some punishment.
 
Ok, I'll give you the answer, another answer, and my limited knowledge of the issue in this case. Although I don't practice constitutional law, I've been a lawyer for over seventeen years, so I have a bit of an idea of how the system works.

The answer is that, yes, lawyers and judges look to laws and cases. Then they look to prior court opinions that have interpreted the law. Usually, if the opinion is from a higher court, lawyers and judges must follow the opinion. So, when the Supreme Court of the United States issues an opinion, everyone looks to it because the Court is usually interpreting the Constitution, or a federal law, or disputes between citizens of different states.

The other answer is that, you're right. Judges and lawyers "distinguish" cases based on their particular facts in attempt to argue, or reason, that the law or prior case does not apply to the particular facts of their case. Generally, however, courts and lawyers follow precedent. Sometimes, you can argue directly against an established law or prior case, if you believe that there is a good faith basis to argue that the law should be changed. That's how we ended up with laws like the Civil Rights Act of 1964. And that's how the law evolves.

Without reading the briefs in this case, the issue that the Supreme Court must address is the interplay between the statute and the First Amendment. So, the constitutional question for the Court is whether the Constitution protects lies, because the First Amendment says that "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech ...." If lies are protected by the First Amendment, then the statute is unconstitutional. So, this opinion will have far-reaching effects if the Court decides that lies are protected. They will certainly recognize the service of our military, and the honor bestowed upon those of unquestionable valor, and they may ultimately decide that the speech at issue--that is, a lie about service and valor in the military--deserves less protection, and that the statute is narrowly tailored to meet the government's interest. In that case, they'll find the statute constitutional.

Unfortunately, sometimes tough cases make bad law. If they decide that the First Amendment sometimes protects lies, what are the limits? The Supreme Court rarely decides limits, because each case brings new factual issues, and they typically leave those issues for the lower courts to decide. If they decide the First Amendment never protects lies, then you'll likely see many new laws that make lies--beyond those to governmental officials or judges or police officers--a crime. Like telling your employer you graduated from an Ivy League college, when it was a second-tier school, or telling the newspaper that you were at Ground Zero and are now destitute, when you were nowhere near that hallowed ground, or ... [insert your example here.]

Finally, law schools have a mandatory group of courses that they are required to teach, which usually take up at least the first of three years. The include contract law, constitutional law, property law, torts, federal procedure, criminal law and procedure, and legal research and writing. So, you learn by understanding the law, and how courts have interpreted the laws over time.

Sorry for the long explanation, but hope it helps. And for what it's worth, I believe that Medal of Honor, and other medals of valor, deserve protection, so that lies about being awarded them should receive some punishment.

Thanks for the response, I knew you were an attorney, hence the reason for the "Is that Correct" comment.. :)

What is unfortunate to me is that it seems that we have become backwards in our thinking. Instead of a judge listening to the merit of a case and basing his decision on "The Laws" we see attorneys using precedent of other cases that have no comparison to justify what their clients have done... So instead of looking at each case by itself as to right or wrong we see cases where people judges and attorneys are pointing to another case to say "See it's okay for what I did because of this other case"... More along the lines of what can I get away with based off somones elses situation as opposed to each case being valued by itself....
 
I get that its wrong and i think the guy is a worthless piece of garbage for it bit i don't agree with prosecuting him for it. He lied, he did not purger himself. He should face the same punishment as the rest of us if we lie at work....dismissal. im all for protecting our troops but this falls under freedom of speech. They guy is a jerk, for sure, and i hope he gets whats coming to him.
 
I get that its wrong and i think the guy is a worthless piece of garbage for it bit i don't agree with prosecuting him for it. He lied, he did not purger himself. He should face the same punishment as the rest of us if we lie at work....dismissal. im all for protecting our troops but this falls under freedom of speech. They guy is a jerk, for sure, and i hope he gets whats coming to him.

Good discussion, so you and I have different perspectives which is okay but it is an opportunity that we shouldn't waste.... We see thing differently so I would like to honestly have a chance to banter a little about this... I see this situation as this...

When someone poses as a US service member and they brag about things they have supposedly done people treat them with respect, honor and often times show gratitude by buying meals or allowing that person privileges that a normal citizen would not be offered. Is this not falsifying or presenting misleading information? It absolutely diminishes the right of the actual service members that have earned the title. It should be a specific criminal offense... To my point in other threads, there are protected professions today that you can't just tell people that you are in that group... Doctors, Lawyers, Architects, Engineers, You can't lie about being a nurse or a firefighter, you can't lie about specific job roles and this situation fits perfectly in my opinion... I do agree that we can't legislate lieing as a whole but we absolutely can legislate protection for another job role and that includes service members and their earned rewards....
 
Common Sense would dictate we don't need yet another law. Wouldn't claiming you earned decorations which you didn't simply be fraud?
 
Common Sense would dictate we don't need yet another law. Wouldn't claiming you earned decorations which you didn't simply be fraud?

30 years ago I would have agreed with you.. But in the society we have today everyone feels they are entitled to do or say whatever they want.... There used to be lines that people would steer away from at all cost because they just knew it was wrong... Today people like to cross the lines just because they can and then claim they do it for the name of Freedom..
 
I'd hate the thought of more laws being passed . Is he a POS? yep , But hey If they did pass a law that makes lying illegal -Then most The politicians will be kicked out of office...including O
 
So the guy lied. How many people daily lie? Are we going to start prosecuting them too? If lieing is now becoming a prosecutable offense watch out washington!!! We wont have a politician left! Not to mention we better build a lot more jails, prisons, etc. Also better do a lot of hiring and fireing as well. Most of the police force is going to be fired. They lie daily. Every politician. Most parents. EVERY SALES PERSON ALIVE!

Thats the slope we are on. So the guy lied about a medal. I am military as well (disabled) and my feelings arent hurt. Wasnt cool but neither is most everything in washington and we arent doing anything about that.
 
Maybe it's better prosecuted under the fraud laws "he defrauded people out of special treatment by proclaiming he was something he wasn't?" especially if he got monetary value from such claim? Mr. Attorney?

Still don't think it should have got this far. It's like a little kid, when daddy says NO, so he goes to Mommy...
 
So the guy lied. How many people daily lie? Are we going to start prosecuting them too? If lieing is now becoming a prosecutable offense watch out washington!!! We wont have a politician left! Not to mention we better build a lot more jails, prisons, etc. Also better do a lot of hiring and fireing as well. Most of the police force is going to be fired. They lie daily. Every politician. Most parents. EVERY SALES PERSON ALIVE!

Thats the slope we are on. So the guy lied about a medal. I am military as well (disabled) and my feelings arent hurt. Wasnt cool but neither is most everything in washington and we arent doing anything about that.

This is exactly what I am talking about... You can't bunch all things into one bucket... I am speaking to one specific instance... Military service at some level and medals and honors earned should have protection... I agree you can't legislate morality but you can legislate specific issues... I completely agree that lieing as a car salesman is completely different than lieing about being a Marine for 25 yerars and receiving the Congressional Medal of Honor... It is possible to pass a specific law for this one event, we do it all the time... As a county we have started to bunch all things together, we can't do that.. We don't see the same speed limit on all roads in the country do we? Engineers look at each road and take into consideration obstacles, curves, traffic counts, road surface and even time of day to decide what the speed should be on that road. We should use this same "Common Sense" approach to the protection of the honors earned...

cap
 
I see where this can make people upset but I don't agree with the way it is being handled. Some have tried to make a comparison to the crime of impersonating an officer. Huge difference between saying “I am a cop” and “I was a cop”. The difference “am” and “was” is that one puts you in and authoritative position and the other in good or bad graces of the audience.

Plain and simple it’s a lie and we should not look at the person in a favorable light. To me, a lie becomes criminal when there is financial, even future, gain from deception. If he received any financial gain such as donation, future paid speaking events, book deals and so on. If all he is getting Is pats on the back then it shouldn’t be classified as criminal.

On another note, if I read the article correctly, a lower court ruled that he did nothing criminal and the prosecution appealed to the SCOTUS. This maybe a case of a prosecutor pushing the law for other/future reasons.
 
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