Twisty advice??

[Charlesbusa]

For you guys who scrape pegs, what do you think of this advise I got from another busa rider. (Especially going downhill)Load up your suspension by using both brakes before&going into the corner. He also talked about using brakes and some throttle at the same time going into corners. My technique has been to finish all braking before I start my lean, maybe not the fastest but I've never heard of braking and throttling(a little) together. I also ride twisties with the balls of my feet on the peg. It's definately awkward for me to use the rear while leaning.

 

[The Oracle]

Charles,

I will try and answer...

*insert disclaimer here*
I am not a professional rider, and even if I was, I would not try and tell you what to do... Everything listed and mentioned on this post reply is purely from the author's (me) knowledge and is not meant to instruct anyone! If you choose to do anything stupid based on my reply, it is your own #### fault!
*end disclaimer*

I believe your freind is referring to "trail braking" and it does incorporate braking into the turn. However, I have never heard of using throttle at the same time. Essentially, trail braking does help to load the suspension and allows you to enter turns at a quicker pace (since you are still braking going into it). Most pros will manage to add between 1/2 to 1 bike length to a turn using this technique. Not much, but, if you do this on 20 turns you can see the advantage.

The downsides:
1. Trail braking is dangerous if anything goes wrong, you will FEEL it in your burnt-up scraped ass!
2. Never trail brake in a reverse camber turn.

Also, in regards to your balls-of-the-feet part... Normally, you apply the majority of trail braking to the fronts.

Finally, since we all know that the street is not the track (he-hem) and we SHOULD always preserve a hair of traction, trail braking is not really a good idea. I.e. you shouldn't be going MAXIMUM into any curve on the street... What if a box turtle was meandering across your line!?

Hope I helped, Vaughn.

 

[ThunderPants]

I like to hold the brakes while I am initiating the turn then let off slowly. This does load the suspension and transfers the weight to the front where you want it to be. I don't know how much I do it compared to others but it is how I ride. I will use the rear brake a little in the middle of the turn if I am in a little to hot. Just be careful for obvious reasons. You can use the fronts but that tends to stand the bike up. Little things I have noticed.

 

[mikeyusf]

IMHO-

First things first, learn about your suspension and always check your tire pressure. If you are going to start cornering hard, you better have a very clear idea how your suspension works so you can tweak it to your particular riding style. Learn about pre-load, compression and rebound settings. Very important

Tires can only do 1 thing really well. That could be breaking, turning or accelerating. When you try to combine 2 or more, thats when you get into trouble. Once Colin Edwards begins to lean into the turn, he's off the break

When entering a corner, slow down first, pick your corner speed, lean the bike, and get on the throttle. If you start going wide, stay on the throttle and lean harder, looking through the turn. If you go inside, give it more throttle.

Most importantly, you've gotta know where you are riding. You should know the road you are riding blindfolded if are going to run it hard.

If you are looking to drag knee on public streets, be my guest. Just remember, tires can only do 1 thing at a time. Asking a postage stamp sized piece of rubber to hold 700 pounds while breaking and turning at the same time is asking for trouble.

The worst mistake you can make is touching your front brake after leaning your bike. Pick your corner speed, lean the bike, throttle

hope this helps
Mike

 

[Charlesbusa]

Yeah it sounds like this guy is talking out his a#@!! He probably talked to a racer and now tries to show how cool he is by talking about stuff he doesn't really know about. I ride the canyons all the time, I'm probably a "good" rider at the twisties, I ALWAYS leave more to lean over to(ya never know what's around the corner), and I never brake in a corner(just look and lean). I was just curious about this loading the suspension stuff by using both brakes going into/in a corner. Sounds like track technique only.

 

[gararnett]

Trail braking is very serious stuff - because you are running closer to the edge of traction. You are using the tires for both cornering and braking, so you can't get max traxion from either. It can make you go faster in some instances, but for the street I would not reccomend it, unless you are already an above average rider and know and understand the risks. BTW, some bikes just behave better under trail braking than others - especially very light bikes that are not using up the extremes of traction anyway - think dualsport bikes that have little hp and little weight. Trail braking is one way that they excell in the tight stuff - thay have so much traction to spare that a heavy and powerful bike does not (BUSA).

As for braking while on the power, this was a trick begun by Mick Duhan in 500GP after he had multiple fractures in his foot and raced with his foot in a cast (and won a world championship). He had the Honda engineers put a thumb control on his handlebar so he could control the rear brake, as he couldn't use his broken foot to brake. Mich found that by slightly applying a little rear brake while accelerating out of the turn, he could whack the throttle WFO, and control the application of that hp with the rear brake, thus significantly reducing his chances of a high side. NOT SOMETHING TO TRY FOR THE IN-EXPERIENCED!!! Many club racers try to do this and #### it up, regularly.

Finally, for rear braking when entering a turn - or rear trail braking: Generally when roadracing(definately the amature riders who are not trying to get killed becoming the next Nicky Hayden), most people use the front brakes only or just a little rear. The rear is used to stabilise the bike as when jammin on the front binders, there is a large transfer of weight to the front. By using a little rear before jamming on the fronts, you can reduce the extreme shift of weight, the little stoppie that happens in many bus stop type turns, which is not fun when the rear then hits the ground as you are trying to turn. Again, not as necessary when on the street, as yo should always be riding with RESERVE so you don't DIE ON YOUR BUSA!!! Cause while I don't know you or anyone else on this board, I hate to hear of dead motorcyclist, especially Busa riders, and I don't want to mourn the loss of that special bird we all love to ride.

 

[johncal]

I trail brake all of the time and I also use the gas and brake at the same time. Here's my reasoning.

1. Trail braking allows for much higher speeds going into a turn. All the best racers use it, and if you don't you'll get passed every time. You don't use much lean while you are braking but more gently leaning at this time. This also makes it easier to square off the corner because you can get deeper, easier and also when doing this you will get a much better feel for your speed. You feel more in control then when you are in a fast "coasting" mode. Care is definitely needed however since you are beginning your lean. What I like to do is to keep adding brake pressure front and a little rear gradually until the rear just begins to wiggle a bit. This is maximum braking efficiency.

2. I also like to use gas and brake at the same time as follows:
After getting in deep with the trail braking the bike has quite a bit of forward weight transfer. If you get off the brake and onto the gas quickly, the bike teeters back quickly and the weight transfers quickly altering tire adhesion front and rear. By adding gas while slowly releasing the brake, the weight shift or transfer is more gradual and the transition from brake to gas is MUCH smoother.

I always prefer to cut a quick, deep, sharp apex in a turn. this way full lean is achieved at a much lower speed even though you will need to lean a bit more. Believe me, you will have more confidence leaning more at lower speeds AND it is safer. Also, by "squaring off" the corner you can get the bike up straighter and quicker allowing you to use much more gas sooner. First on the gas is always best.

Besides if you watch how the pros do it, they brake deep into the corner to prevent being passed by someone that brakes harder, then they're on the gas fast so as not to be passed coming out of the turn.

Remember, smoothness means traction. Practice going on the gas and off the brake at the same time on a back road, but do this going straight. You'll soon learn how to do this and once you have the feel, you will be able to quickly master this in the turns.

when I first got the bike, I did this...and in this order.

1. Practiced high speed braking.
2. Practiced turns.
3. Set up suspension
4. Practiced turns again.
5. Practiced full throttle acceleration.

You'll noticed I started with things that are most important to keeping you alive, and went from there. I spent at least 6-8 solid hours on each of these things and did NOT move on until each felt like second nature on this bike.

Even though this is my third bike, I treat each one like I'm just learning for the first time.

Good Luck,
JC

 

[gararnett]

The pros don't ride like that on the street, they leave a lot in reserve.

 

[vincent]

too many moving obstacles out there to be playing around with stuff that is meant for the track. Just take some time to stay alive and go do a track day for the rest of it

 

[Big O]

Trail braking may be good for the track, not for the street. You need that little bit extra braking in case you see the box turtle like Oracle said, or Bambi like I saw last week.

I was trying it for a couple of days and almost high sided once. No more of that! I'll just stick with the braking being all done before the turn.

 

[busagod]

Before I comment, I must confess.  I have been known by many to enjoy the adrenaline rush of getting a little crazy in the twisties.

But, I would have to totally agree with Big O!  Trail braking in the hands of a professional road racer on the track can, and is, a useful tool to help keep his multi-million dollar contract by snuffing the competition.  Trail braking leaves absolutely no room for error on the street or track.  I’m sure none of us are making millions of dollars by beating a buddy through the twisties. Dude if you value your life or family be smart, lay off the front brake in the turn.

If you absolutely enjoy living life a day at a time, at least pickup a book like, Total Control: High-Performance Street Riding Techniques by Lee Parks, Darwin Holmstrom.  Learn all about these High-Performance Techniques and head to track day to try them out.

 

[apike001]

For you guys who scrape pegs, what do you think of this advise I got from another busa rider.  (Especially going downhill) Load up your suspension by using both brakes before&going into the corner.

That is bad advice:
Using  up your available traction by using your brakes for anything other than slowing the bike to your desired corner entrance speed is just going to wind you up in the tire wall, or worse.  Dont use your brakes to make up for poor suspension setup. Instead: Have your suspension properly set up for you, and your riding ability and style. Depending on the corner, your entrance speed, etc; whether or not you can use the rear brake to a measureable degree will vary. If your rear wheel is in the air, its hard to use the rear brake to slowthe bike much..........


He also talked about using brakes and some throttle at the same time going into corners.  

That's retarded. I wont mince words.

My technique has been to finish all braking before I start my lean, maybe not the fastest but I've never heard of braking and throttling(a little) together.  

You've got the right idea: the more you lean the bike, the smaller your contact patch, and the more forces are involved in consuming your available traction. When the bike is vertical, your dealing with pure deceleration. When you enter the corner (trail braking), your spending some of your available traction on cornering, and some on braking which means less available traction for either force.

I also ride twisties with the balls of my feet on the peg.  It's definately awkward for me to use the rear while leaning

You should be on the balls of your feet, with your butt a MM. off the seat, center of gravity should be pretty much directly below your diaphragm (below lungs), but this does depend on style. This weight distribution puts you in control of the bike, and allows for very quick reactions. the weight on your hands should be as little as possible. The more weight on your hands, the less smooth you will be, and the slower your reaction time, due to you first having to take the weight off your arms, and then making the appropriate steering correction.....etc.


If you want to be good: Get down to the bookstore and get:
Twist of the Wrist -Keith Code
Soft Science of Roadracing -Keith Code

Then, get yourself in a Roadracing school or Superbike school.
Most Tracks offer/Require a 1 or 2 day School to prepare you for riding on their track. These are excellent places to pick up as much as you can "chew" on in 48hrs. They are also usually taught by your local "Hot Shoe", so you can pick their brains between race groups later; if you desire.  These schools are a huge bargain if you take full advantage of them.

Good Luck Bro
Apike

 

[†WÃ￾§†ëD]

noobs! you,ll never catch me if you use your brakes

 

[flying swan]

Charlesbusa,
What you mentioned..and everyone else touched on is called Trail braking. I've gone to racing school twice and have my racing license..this is one of the techniques they teach us. If you load your front brakes while going into a corner the front end is down and you should be able to go into that corner much easier..of course you will be weighing your inside peg and off your seat... I ride this way all the time with the busa..but I'm not fast..but I'm coming from a straight and carrying a bit of speed...Bog has taught me to just break before the corner..shift down..and throw it in...mind you you're breaking pretty hard. I don't recommend it for everyday riding..but this is what I call riding hard....be careful though you need to match the rev's with the gear you're in when you go into the corner otherwise you liable to highside. Anyways..have fun...ride safe..these are racing techniques...if you're riding like this on the street then..I say slow down.

 

[Speedfreak391]

Ok, First of all different people are going to ride at different levels on the street. Second of all I can't tell any of you how to ride. I can tell you my opinion, but to some, this doesn't mean squat!

I like to ride hard on the street! But not race track hard! This is why I have raced for the last 10 yrs.
Now on to this trail braking subject alot of you have the correct outlook on this subject. Sometimes it is better to get all the braking done before the corner. Sometimes you need to trail brake in to the corner. If its right or wrong it depends on the corner! Now Iknow alot of riders that have no business trail braking on the track, or on the street. It all depends on how comfortable you are on your own bike, and how cofident you are in your own skills.
While trail braking you are putting a lot of extra load on the front tire, and also making the rear very loose. I have seen on many ocations guys lowside with just a little to much brake while trail braking. I have also watched lots of guys trail in, and then get on the gas just a little to hard while the rear wheel is still light and low side or high side thier brians out. This is a very touchy subject and it should be handled very carefully.On the street it can be a big loose-loose situation, with traffic, them deer's, gaurd rails, and the worst of all, that stinkin' little box turtle.

Just ride within your limit's. I watched one of my buddies trail brake him self right off the side of a cliff in the dragon (thats Deals Gap) on a Busa 3 yrs. ago. Not a pretty site. It was like man he's going pretty good! Then it was like "Holy @#%$@!!!Where did he go? NOT COOL!!!!! His bike was 150ft down and you couldn't even see it from the road, Good thing someone was behind him!

Just think about what your doing before you do it. It could really hurt bad!!!

 

[pure_ego]

sounds like a good way to get smished to me..

and until somebody starts paying me to try and put it on a podium... I ain't worried about .5 second a lap.

besides.. i'm further than that behind the good guys anyway I'm sure.. hehe.

 

[Charlesbusa]

Wow, I forgot all about this thread!!! It's almost 2 yrs old

Still good info.

 

[vincent]

why are so many old threads gettin pulled up lately? Are we getting stale?
This was a good thread though

 

[Revlis]

Dayum... Back from the dead...

 

[shenoyp]

Im no knee dragger... cause of my weight, but i'm pretty ok in the twisties! In my opinion, I think it does help to slightly apply rear brakes in the middle of the lane... I generally take my curves like this -

a) Shut the throtle / or slightly apply front brakes if im too fast approching the curve
b) Lean in... and "maintain" some throtle... so that I dont loose speed in the curves
c) Tap lightly on the rear brakes, if I feel im loosing traction
d) Give a sharp increase in throtle... when exiting the curves

I dunno if thats how it should be done professionally... but it works fro me, then again... I'm no knee dragger! Definetly like to learn to drak knee though