Sprocket powder coating question

1ibandit

Registered
I am getting ready to get new sprockets and chain. I have the setup to powder coat and want to powder coat my new sprocket. I will be using gloss black that sets at 350f. Does any know if the heat will affect the sprocket?

I have done lots of other parts, but none that has to take that much abuse. I don't want to make it weak and fail... Any thoughts?


1ibandit
 
What kind of sprocket, Aluminum or steel?
I had my Supersprox sprocket center piece which was gold powder coated black and it's still fine after around 7500 miles.
 
Short answer: yes

Long answer: how much depends on a lot of factors...

medium answer: may not really matter



hows that :)


If you knew how long it would be in the oven for, it would help... 175 C is right in the upper end of the range for preciptation hardening, so you likely will experience some precipitation phase growth, but if its short and sweet, it likely wont matter...


SO, yeah...
 
If you knew how long it would be in the oven for, it would help... 175 C is right in the upper end of the range for preciptation hardening, so you likely will experience some precipitation phase growth, but if its short and sweet, it likely wont matter...


I think the baking time for most parts are around 20 to 30 min. I think???
 
I seem to remember them telling me it was 350-400 degrees for one hour ?

Where's Travis at Tm when you need him ?

Goatkart what will baking an aluminum sprocket for an hour at temps I said above do to it ?
Easy and in English please.....:)

Steel I think you could bake all day long at those temps and not worry , right Goatkart ?
 
Do you preheat your parts? If you do...when the powder hits the part it melts in and looks like liquid does when it goes on...it helps me from putting on to much material. I powder coated mine and baked it at 340 for 20 min with no issues.
 
I think the baking time for most parts are around 20 to 30 min. I think???

If it goes from room temp with powder on it, into the oven, bakes for 20-30 minutes then comes out of the oven...

it SHOULD be fine...

if it goes over 1hr then i would be very nervous... less than 1 hour should be fine, but shorter the better...
 
Goatkart what will baking an aluminum sprocket for an hour at temps I said above do to it ?
Easy and in English please.....:)

Steel I think you could bake all day long at those temps and not worry , right Goatkart ?

it all depends.... as to aluminum vs steel..

Aluminum is more susceptible to heat than steel GENERALLY speaking...there are a few exceptions with steels that are really temp sensative, but in a general sense, aluminum alloys are more temp sensative than almost any steels...

However, any metal which is heat treated or cold worked, forged, recrystalised, etc. will suffer some effects from heat, but some effects could be better, worse, almost so close to no change, that we dont care...



in the case of aluminum, and specifically certain types of aluminum alloys (for instance those with a significant amount of magnesium content)....

Im going to give the elementary school description of the general way aluminum is hardened:


SO for an aluminum alloy to be heat treatable, the constituent phase elements (magnesium et al) must have significant solubility in aluminum, specifically, we want that solubility to get significantly HIGHER as temperatures go UP...

This is all determined from phase diagrams.... something i basically spend my life with my nose in..

Al-Mg.jpg


Think of this similar to salt in water, or sugar in water... at room temperature, you can put x amount of salt in it, but if you heat the water up, you can put a LOT more salt in solution...

similar.... notion

(my materials engineering prof's would be crying at this explination)


Ok, now, this high saturation occurs at about 420 C..

So what they will do, for heat treating is this...

Take a hunk of aluminum alloy that has been made... this aluminum will be a mish mash of different compounds inside the aluminum, and generally have a much lower strength than treated aluminum..

SO they stick it in the oven at 420 C and leave it there for a bit...

The idea is to get all the constituent phases to homogenise back into a big solid solution... That is, they want the aluminum to get up to the point where its solubility for all the extra bits that make the alloy is really high again, so all the compunds disapear back INTO the aluminum again...

This would be the same idea as heating up the water, and stiring back in to solution, the salt particles that have settled out on to the bottom of your glass...


So now we have hot aluminum, BUT its all solutionised, so there are no extraneous compounds, this is GREAT...

So we quench this down to room temperature... depending on the alloy we are dealing with, this could be quenching in water, oil, molten salt baths, leaving it on a counter top with a fan blowing accross it, or just turning off the oven and letting it cool...

All alloys have a different cooling curve which dictates the speed which it MUST be cooled to maintain the fully solutionised aluminum...

Ironicly, the alloying elements put into the aluminum have a HUGE impact on this :)



So now that we have aluminum in single phase at low temperature.... We need to harden it now...


SO NOW it is reheated to about 135-175 c (different temperatures accomplish different things, and at different RATES)

What this causes to happen is some of those constitutent elements start precipitating out into the aluminum... basically they look like littly black dots and are intermetallic compounds, which will fall onto the grain boundaries and all around of the aluminum...

This USUALLY is done over the course of 1hr to 1 day.. depending on temperature, desired temper, desired properties, etc..

Believe it or not, there are SOME aluminums, which will do this at room temperature, so they must keep the metal in a freezer ....

Certain aircraft parts are this way... They put them in place in the airplane and then they basically turn ultra hard after they have been put in place... its VERY cool!





So, basically, any time the metal is brought back up to this temperature range, its causing these little particles to start growing again...




I tried to find a hardening curve for various temperatures online, but this is the best i could find... and its not specific to aluminum, its a different alloy all together (some magnesium alloy)...


BUT the important trend is there... The y axis is hardness, and the x axis is time... The temperature is held constant, and each line is a different alloy...

The important thing to note, is for any alloy, when the alloy is left in the oven too long, the hardness starts falling off FAST...

and the higher the temperature the FASTER this occurs... which is why most heat treatments are done at fairly low temperatures...



Mg1.gif






For an idea of how fast this can happen in aluminum if you go back to my CHAZZO, tests.... i was able to destroy the heat treatment in that aluminum, at 325 C in under an hour.... an extreme example to be sure, but the idea remains the same... lower temps take longer to accomplish the same idea..






SO, in regards to the sprocket... the big point is, how hot and how long...

If these are kept in check and reasonable, no worries... You may end up weakening the sprocket a little bit, but i doubt it will be to a point that it matters...

It really depends on the treatment of the sprocket itself, and determining where the company that made it has the sprocket in the hardening curves...

If they take it to the raged edge, it has no where to go but down when heat is applied....

Would i ever do a powder coat to an aluminum sprocket and put it on a turbo bike.... EHHHH probally not the chances of stress cracks developing would be too high....

a stock bike, i think you could get away with it no problems.. as long as things are kept REASONABLE...







Also, in regards to steel.... toss all this information out the window... its an entirely different process all together... and MOST steels will be fine under a standard low temp powdercoating condition.. or for that matter cast irons will have almost no change (why ductile/nodular irons are great in these temperature ranges)...


Also, this is why aluminum engine blocks are made from TOTALY different aluminums... they are casting alloy's like c355.... otherwise you would end up with engine blocks failing all day long..


Lastly, i skipped over a LOT of information specifics, and critical aspects to the process trying to keep it understandable.... This is far and away NOT the whole story... there is a LOT more going on here...

Some cases i used analogies that get a basic concept across, but fail to model other very important ideas...


So just realise that this is not the whole story, but more like the cliff's cliff's notes...

disclaimer: hehehe like a lawyer, this is not a professional opininion, and all this advice should be taken as nothing more than internet hear say, and not a suggestion of methodologies, or processes for alloying, treating, or hill billy garage working materials.... i am not responsible for you doing something stupid or playing metalworker at home!
 
Ooof! :banghead: I said in Inglis por favor :please:
Mi duela cavesa !



it all depends.... as to aluminum vs steel..

Aluminum is more susceptible to heat than steel GENERALLY speaking...there are a few exceptions with steels that are really temp sensative, but in a general sense, aluminum alloys are more temp sensative than almost any steels...

However, any metal which is heat treated or cold worked, forged, recrystalised, etc. will suffer some effects from heat, but some effects could be better, worse, almost so close to no change, that we dont care...



in the case of aluminum, and specifically certain types of aluminum alloys (for instance those with a significant amount of magnesium content)....

Im going to give the elementary school description of the general way aluminum is hardened:


SO for an aluminum alloy to be heat treatable, the constituent phase elements (magnesium et al) must have significant solubility in aluminum, specifically, we want that solubility to get significantly HIGHER as temperatures go UP...

This is all determined from phase diagrams.... something i basically spend my life with my nose in..

Al-Mg.jpg


Think of this similar to salt in water, or sugar in water... at room temperature, you can put x amount of salt in it, but if you heat the water up, you can put a LOT more salt in solution...

similar.... notion

(my materials engineering prof's would be crying at this explination)


Ok, now, this high saturation occurs at about 420 C..

So what they will do, for heat treating is this...

Take a hunk of aluminum alloy that has been made... this aluminum will be a mish mash of different compounds inside the aluminum, and generally have a much lower strength than treated aluminum..

SO they stick it in the oven at 420 C and leave it there for a bit...

The idea is to get all the constituent phases to homogenise back into a big solid solution... That is, they want the aluminum to get up to the point where its solubility for all the extra bits that make the alloy is really high again, so all the compunds disapear back INTO the aluminum again...

This would be the same idea as heating up the water, and stiring back in to solution, the salt particles that have settled out on to the bottom of your glass...


So now we have hot aluminum, BUT its all solutionised, so there are no extraneous compounds, this is GREAT...

So we quench this down to room temperature... depending on the alloy we are dealing with, this could be quenching in water, oil, molten salt baths, leaving it on a counter top with a fan blowing accross it, or just turning off the oven and letting it cool...

All alloys have a different cooling curve which dictates the speed which it MUST be cooled to maintain the fully solutionised aluminum...

Ironicly, the alloying elements put into the aluminum have a HUGE impact on this :)



So now that we have aluminum in single phase at low temperature.... We need to harden it now...


SO NOW it is reheated to about 135-175 c (different temperatures accomplish different things, and at different RATES)

What this causes to happen is some of those constitutent elements start precipitating out into the aluminum... basically they look like littly black dots and are intermetallic compounds, which will fall onto the grain boundaries and all around of the aluminum...

This USUALLY is done over the course of 1hr to 1 day.. depending on temperature, desired temper, desired properties, etc..

Believe it or not, there are SOME aluminums, which will do this at room temperature, so they must keep the metal in a freezer ....

Certain aircraft parts are this way... They put them in place in the airplane and then they basically turn ultra hard after they have been put in place... its VERY cool!





So, basically, any time the metal is brought back up to this temperature range, its causing these little particles to start growing again...




I tried to find a hardening curve for various temperatures online, but this is the best i could find... and its not specific to aluminum, its a different alloy all together (some magnesium alloy)...


BUT the important trend is there... The y axis is hardness, and the x axis is time... The temperature is held constant, and each line is a different alloy...

The important thing to note, is for any alloy, when the alloy is left in the oven too long, the hardness starts falling off FAST...

and the higher the temperature the FASTER this occurs... which is why most heat treatments are done at fairly low temperatures...



Mg1.gif






For an idea of how fast this can happen in aluminum if you go back to my CHAZZO, tests.... i was able to destroy the heat treatment in that aluminum, at 325 C in under an hour.... an extreme example to be sure, but the idea remains the same... lower temps take longer to accomplish the same idea..






SO, in regards to the sprocket... the big point is, how hot and how long...

If these are kept in check and reasonable, no worries... You may end up weakening the sprocket a little bit, but i doubt it will be to a point that it matters...

It really depends on the treatment of the sprocket itself, and determining where the company that made it has the sprocket in the hardening curves...

If they take it to the raged edge, it has no where to go but down when heat is applied....

Would i ever do a powder coat to an aluminum sprocket and put it on a turbo bike.... EHHHH probally not the chances of stress cracks developing would be too high....

a stock bike, i think you could get away with it no problems.. as long as things are kept REASONABLE...







Also, in regards to steel.... toss all this information out the window... its an entirely different process all together... and MOST steels will be fine under a standard low temp powdercoating condition.. or for that matter cast irons will have almost no change (why ductile/nodular irons are great in these temperature ranges)...


Also, this is why aluminum engine blocks are made from TOTALY different aluminums... they are casting alloy's like c355.... otherwise you would end up with engine blocks failing all day long..


Lastly, i skipped over a LOT of information specifics, and critical aspects to the process trying to keep it understandable.... This is far and away NOT the whole story... there is a LOT more going on here...

Some cases i used analogies that get a basic concept across, but fail to model other very important ideas...


So just realise that this is not the whole story, but more like the cliff's cliff's notes...

disclaimer: hehehe like a lawyer, this is not a professional opininion, and all this advice should be taken as nothing more than internet hear say, and not a suggestion of methodologies, or processes for alloying, treating, or hill billy garage working materials.... i am not responsible for you doing something stupid or playing metalworker at home!
 
Don't do it! The sprocket will break, your chain will snap and wad up around the rear axel locking the wheel and you will go down in a fiery ball of death.

Or it will make it easier to clean the chain grease off the sprocket.

Probably one of those two outcomes.......
 
How is the busa doing? Thats the one you fixing right?

Sorry for slow reply... working lots of days in a row...

Yes this is my kabusa I am redoing. I went down last fall and getting it ready for this year. All new plastics are ordered and will get here painted at the end of the month. The same company are doing the painting so it should look just like it did before the fall....All the rest of the parts are also on order. I need a new chain sprocket and thinking of powder coating them.

I will also be powder coating Pegs, rotors, and lots of other parts for my 1988 ZL1000 including the wheels. I will be posting how I do the wheels as I do them...

1ibandit
 
Sorry for slow reply... working lots of days in a row...

Yes this is my kabusa I am redoing. I went down last fall and getting it ready for this year. All new plastics are ordered and will get here painted at the end of the month. The same company are doing the painting so it should look just like it did before the fall....All the rest of the parts are also on order. I need a new chain sprocket and thinking of powder coating them.

I will also be powder coating Pegs, rotors, and lots of other parts for my 1988 ZL1000 including the wheels. I will be posting how I do the wheels as I do them...

1ibandit

Im glad to hear you working on kabusa :thumbsup:
 
I just finished Powdercoating all the parts on my k8 and including the sprocket. I ran it through the paces and it works just fine.
 
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