so now it's on tv..

[pure_ego]

so I'm sitting here browsing the site.. havin' a pretty good saturday morning.. and bam  i get pissed off.

A commercial comes on.. complete with somber music, and patriotic images talking about what a buffon our president is for having troops in iraq..  2000 dead.. ect.

"Mr. President, there must be a better way to bring out troops home...."

fade to a casket shot drapped in a flag.

I'm so sick of the people in this country.

in my opinion things like this just cheapen their deaths..

Every death in Iraq ... to some people... who mostly seem to be from one of the larger political parties is almost treated like a good thing..

"Ahhh, another soldier dies...time to bash on Bush again.  Just wait till we hit 4,000.. then we can really make him look like a monster."

I for one... am completely sick of this crap.

Soldiers death = political gain..  simple as that to some people.

I thought I'd seen it all when the Sheehan woman found out how to find her 15 minutes of fame..  but everytime I think this country has hit the lowest moral standard possible I get slapped in the face and told "not even close!"

I do support the war in Iraq...  yes people are going to die... but IMO..  When Iraq becomes a free nation... or when any middle eastern country becomes a free country the whole place is going to be on the right track.  Good for the US, good for the world.

People from surrounding countries are going to realize they don't have to live like dogs under murdereous dictators and do something about it..

but it's never going to happen if they never realize there is a better life available as long as every country over there has their minds posioned against a free country.

don't shoot that BS to me about this being freedom of speech and all that... I'm not arguing that...  I'm just saying it's ridiculous.

What is this countries whiney ass "feel good" sect going to do when we have a real fight, and large amounts of soldiers deaths on our hands?

Would we have won either world war if the kind of thinking that is "normal" today was present then?

Of course not...  

"Why do we care what happens to Europe?"

"Oh, don't attack the Japanese, they are just oppressed..  they just need aide!"

give me a break you bleeding heart rat ####### liberals.. get a clue.. there are many many things more important in this world than your political agenda.

Yes people will die, but they are dying to make the world a better place, a safer place, and a stronger place.   What am I going to die for?  What about you...  think your gonna make any difference in the course of the world?

If you don't think America will be a safer country after the middle east is turned from a barbaric "kill the american devil" group of maniacs.. your completely gone.

I for one... while I hate that it is actually happening... am happy that it is finally started.. 25 years after it really should have... but thats beside the point.

Any democratic tendencies I had have been wiped away in the last 6 months... I may even be campaigning for Condaleeza Rice if she runs against Hillary "I married the Rodham" Clinton.

discuss!



<!--EDIT|pure_ego
Reason for Edit: None given...|1130597929 -->

 

[onerabidshark]

I agree 100% Nice rant

 

[warbrown]

I agree 100%  Nice rant

+1

 

[GSXRFANN]

Hmmmm.....
Something to think about!!!

 

[BrianKesler]

Its nice to hear someone with some common sense!

 

[Con5179]

well said.

 

[mjn]

Ego, you managed to put down one of the best posts I've seen in awhile.

Very, very well said. I couldn't agree with you more.

 

[Rocketman]

100% agree..

 

[gunslingerjr]

amen!

 

[drumminman]

so I'm sitting here browsing the site.. havin' a pretty good saturday morning.. and bam i get pissed off.

A commercial comes on.. complete with somber music, and patriotic images talking about what a buffon our president is for having troops in iraq.. 2000 dead.. ect.

"Mr. President, there must be a better way to bring out troops home...."

fade to a casket shot drapped in a flag.

I'm so sick of the people in this country.

in my opinion things like this just cheapen their deaths..

Every death in Iraq ... to some people... who mostly seem to be from one of the larger political parties is almost treated like a good thing..

"Ahhh, another soldier dies...time to bash on Bush again. Just wait till we hit 4,000.. then we can really make him look like a monster."

I for one... am completely sick of this crap.

Soldiers death = political gain.. simple as that to some people.

I thought I'd seen it all when the Sheehan woman found out how to find her 15 minutes of fame.. but everytime I think this country has hit the lowest moral standard possible I get slapped in the face and told "not even close!"

I do support the war in Iraq... yes people are going to die... but IMO.. When Iraq becomes a free nation... or when any middle eastern country becomes a free country the whole place is going to be on the right track. Good for the US, good for the world.

People from surrounding countries are going to realize they don't have to live like dogs under murdereous dictators and do something about it..

but it's never going to happen if they never realize there is a better life available as long as every country over there has their minds posioned against a free country.

don't shoot that BS to me about this being freedom of speech and all that... I'm not arguing that... I'm just saying it's ridiculous.

What is this countries whiney ass "feel good" sect going to do when we have a real fight, and large amounts of soldiers deaths on our hands?

Would we have won either world war if the kind of thinking that is "normal" today was present then?

Of course not...

"Why do we care what happens to Europe?"

"Oh, don't attack the Japanese, they are just oppressed.. they just need aide!"

give me a break you bleeding heart rat ####### liberals.. get a clue.. there are many many things more important in this world than your political agenda.

Yes people will die, but they are dying to make the world a better place, a safer place, and a stronger place. What am I going to die for? What about you... think your gonna make any difference in the course of the world?

If you don't think America will be a safer country after the middle east is turned from a barbaric "kill the american devil" group of maniacs.. your completely gone.

I for one... while I hate that it is actually happening... am happy that it is finally started.. 25 years after it really should have... but thats beside the point.

Any democratic tendencies I had have been wiped away in the last 6 months... I may even be campaigning for Condaleeza Rice if she runs against Hillary "I married the Rodham" Clinton.

discuss!

So, you think our President and his political cronies leading us into a war based on multiple misrepresentations of intelligence, causing the death of 2000 Americans, is something to be proud of?

Do you know that every single government commission that has looked into the pre-war connection between Iraq and Al Quaida, found that there was none? In spite of that being one of Bush's main arguments for invading Iraq. They were not involved in al quaida or the attack on 9/11.

And of course one of the other arguments being that they had WMD's. Bush claimed to have incontrovertible evidence, which also turned out to be either wrong or grossly misconstrued.

And what about the argument that we must fight them over there so that we don't fight them here? That one didn't prevent an attack on London, or Spain. The same thing was said about Viet Nam, and it took us over 50,000 deaths before we finally admitted our mistake and brought our guys home. Just how many Americans must die in Iraq before we stop trying to turn a really bad idea into something good?

I agree that we need to go after Al Quaida and any other terrorist group aggressively. But it also needs to be done honestly and effectively, like we did in Afghanistan.

 

[NCBusa2001]

I was watching a show last night that spent some time detailing the "long range plan" that some big wigs had. Kind of a "think tank" position that included Chenye, Bush and some other cronies.

Anyway it basically stated that we were planning on going into the middle east since way before 911. And that the events of 911 just gave us an opening that the US public would support.

Remember the best motivator is FEAR. If you can make someone afraid of something you can manipulate their actions.

WMD, Terrorists, War, plague, hurricanies, crime, gun control, etc, can all be used as "motivators" to acheive some desired outcome. Nothing new about that.

Keep in mind I am a die hard conservative republican. I am however, not blind and am very worried about the direction the current administration is taking our country.

I do also support our troops 100%.

Chris

 

[pure_ego]

Okay... first off.. if you'll go back and re-read my first post it says nothing about WMD.. or terrorism..

Here is the way I see it...

If lying to me, and everybody else in this country is what it takes to start cleaning out the rats next that is the middle east... so be it.

I believe most people will rub their brain cells together and come up with the same logic I did..

If the Middle East continues on it's present course of hatred of all things not muslim.. whats going to happen when a REAL leader steps up to the plate and unites this bunch of whackos..

A middle eastern Hitler in other words.. You realize one of the major reasons Hitler failed was due to a lack of oil/raw material to use in the war machine right... think that will be a problem in the middle east? .. me neither. All they need is the technology to do it.. and they've got the money to do it RIGHT NOW if they would stop wasting all that oil money on gold tooth brushes, and solid platinum bmw's and crazy junk.

When some charismatic sultan stops wasting all that money on gold potties, and starts buying real military technology... Do you think they could be a problem then?

Oh.. but who would sell it to them EGO??.. duh.. What other country has technology close to our level of advancement.. and also doesn't exactly love the US... bingo.. You think it would bother China one bit to sell anything, and everything to the middle east when they know it's just going to be a thorn in the side of the US.... especially if they can do it on the sly?

Afterall.. it's not like I'm talking about shipping 10,000 tanks to the middle east... I'm talking about a set of encyclopedias worth of technological knowledge... a "build your own military for dummies"

I don't doubt it for a second. If you'll study up a bit on Communism.. the only peace they recognize is a lack of opposition. I believe the US would be a very LARGE piece of opposition to China...

Does China want Taiwan back enough to start a third world war... apparently not... Does China want Taiwan back enough to let somebody else start a third world war and quietly sneak in while we are up to our elbows in religous zealots trying to kill everybody... I dunno.. I lean toward "Yep" personally.

.. anyway..

Would you rather let the hate build, and build, and build until the middle east turns into one big huge american hating country... and one that has access to serious technology...

or would you rather find a reason to turn one country around and put it on a path.. by force in necessary thats going to lead it's people to a better life so that when that leader comes along they are less inclined to follow somebody that promises a better life than the pray, herd goats, and hope the latest despot doesn't decide to come kill your family in the middle of the night hell most of the middle eastern people live in now?

In short.. I believe Bush flat out lied.. and Iraq was a good oppurtunity to start changing the whole region for the better.

And yes... assuming I am even remotely correct.. I am proud to think that there is a politician who cares less about his personal legacy than helping provide a safer world for my daughter to grow up in.. even if it takes 10 years to turn it into a reality.

for the record..

Iraq is hardly a vietnam...

I believe the total dead from that is closer to 67,000... (someone can correct me if I'm way off here) if 2,000 American soldiers die in Iraq per year... we would have to be there for over 30 years to even get close to Vietnam. We were Vietnam what.. 7 years? 8 at the most I believe.

If you really wanted to compare this to another war that America was in.. although it isn't technically considered a war by some people... although I wouldn't mention that to anybody that was there... but you would do better comparing it to the Korean "conflict".

We had no real reason to be there other that to stop the spread of communism.. and if memory serves we lost 50,000 people there.

Was it worth it... I dunno.. no way of telling really.. I just know I'm still living in a free country.

I just can't bring myself to believe that there isn't a bigger picture than what we have the knowledge, and information to see.

Does my theory hold water... I don't know.. but I know it wouldn't be the first time this country did something that really didn't need doing... well unless you consider maybe putting out a campfire before it burns down the forest.

I hate that Americans are dying.. probably more so than you.. and I don't mean it as a slame.. I'm just a patriotic SOB for no other reason than I want to be. At the same time.. if 2,000 soldiers dying this year keeps 50-100-250 thousand soldiers, and civilians from dying 20 years from now.. well.. I guess about anybody would call that justified.

You know just as well as I do.. that given the means to come after us.. it wouldn't be some battle somewhere "over there" it would be suicide bombers dropped into our cities by plane... carpet bombing.. on you can't just go hide in the cellar and hope you don't get a direct hit.. they'd be walking thru the streets shooting, and ready to claim their virgins at the first non-muslim they ran across.

so you think i'm nuts.. on to something.. or you just gonna keep repeating what the talking heads tell you is going on?

 

[pure_ego]

I was watching a show last night that spent some time detailing the "long range plan" that some big wigs had.  Kind of a "think tank" position that included Chenye, Bush and some other cronies.  

Anyway it basically stated that we were planning on going into the middle east since way before 911.  And that the events of 911 just gave us an opening that the US public would support.

Remember the best motivator is FEAR.  If you can make someone afraid of something you can manipulate their actions.  

WMD, Terrorists, War, plague, hurricanies, crime, gun control, etc, can all be used as "motivators" to acheive some desired outcome.  Nothing new about that.  

Keep in mind I am a die hard conservative republican.  I am however, not blind and am very worried about the direction the current administration is taking our country.  

I do also support our troops 100%.  

Chris

I haven't seen that... but it does fit in well with what my own little brain has concocted.....

yes.. very well actually.


yep... something needs to change with our gubmint in a big way.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why all of these people are so hyped up over the free trade agreement..

I just dont' get it.. what do we have to gain by outsourcing damn near every job that americans hold to other countries?

I keep thinking, and reading.. and the only people I see benifieting from this are businesses.. and thats only in the short term.. in the long term even they are going to lose..

afterall.. once they get finished out sourcing the jobs to other countries.. who's gonna buy all the crap they are getting made cheap over seas and shipping back here?

I remember reading that 80% of the worlds goods are sold in the US... uh.. well when we can't afford this crap anymore... who's gonna buy it? Even if it is cheap?

Thats a republican, and a democratic thing.. I emailed my rep. one time and asked him to explain why free trade was good for america.. never got a reply.. he's a democrat.. but I wouldn't have expected much more from a republican.

 

[pure_ego]

this has nothign to do with the orignal post really..

but are these the type of people that the worlds most powerful country should ignore..

how long till this type of thing starts happening in our towns?

They can spend all the money they want trying to stop these types from entering the country... until there is a major change in the way these people live their lives, and how they view the rest of the world.. it's only going to become more common.

You can't change a people unless you change their lives.  Simplest way I know how to say it.

JAKARTA, Indonesia  â€” Unidentified assailants attacked a group of high school girls on Saturday in Indonesia's tense province of Central Sulawesi, (search) beheading three and seriously wounding a fourth, police said.

The students from a private Christian high school were ambushed while walking through a cocoa plantation in Poso Kota (search) subdistrict on their way to class, police Maj. Riky Naldo said. The rural area is close to the provincial capital of Poso, about 1,000 miles northeast of the Indonesian capital Jakarta.

He said the heads of the three dead girls were found several miles from their bodies.

Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim nation. But Central Sulawesi has a roughly equal number of Muslims and Christians. The province on Sulawesi island was the scene of a bloody sectarian war in 2001-2002 that killed around 1,000 people from both communities.

At the time, beheadings, burnings and other atrocities were common.

A government-mediated truce ended the conflict in early 2002 but since then, there have been a series of bomb attacks and assassinations targeting Christians. A market attack in the predominantly Christian town of Poso killed 22 people in May.
[/QUOTE]



<!--EDIT|pure_ego
Reason for Edit: None given...|1130659590 -->

 

[drumminman]

Pure Ego, I'm not so sure that I disagree with some of your premises about pre-emptive action. But Iraq was clearly the wrong target, and the way that our President led us into the war was, at best terribly flawed, and at worst an impeachable offense. As the bumper sticker reads: "Clinton lied, no one died."

Iran and North Korea present real problems, not manufactured ones, and Bush has almost completely ignored them. He has been too preoccupied with our adventure in Iraq.

It's easy to say that even though our country was lied to, the ends justify the means. This has been an age old political justification for just about everything, and it is rarely, if ever true.

Below is an excerpt from a Newsweek article that I found on msnbc.com; it details some of the things that are so troubling about the run up to the war. The Iraq strategy is grossly flawed because there has been very little real policy debate within this administration. As Bush once said: "you're either with us or against us." Although he directed this comment at nations harboring terrorists in one of his state of the union addresses it apparently also included members of his own administration.

". . .as I watched Patrick Fitzgerald's skillful press conference. He laid out the seriousness of blowing the cover of CIA operatives. He explained clearly why Scooter Libby had been indicted. He even struck a blow against rogue prosecutors (like Kenneth Starr, though he didn't mention him) whose staffs routinely leak to the media in violation of the law. But Fitzgerald was wrong on one count, at least metaphorically. "This indictment is not about the war," he said. Oh, yes, it is.

According to Fitzgerald, Libby had conversations with at least seven other government officials about Joseph and Valerie Wilson that he did not disclose to the grand jury. Why were top White House officials and Vice President Cheney so concerned about an obscure former diplomat like Wilson? Because he had the temerity to offer public dissent. By showing how evidence of Saddam's WMDs had been cooked, Wilson undermined the very reason Augie Schroeder and the rest of the U.S. military went to war. He was more than "fair game," as Karl Rove called him. He was a mortal threat.

This has been the Bush pattern. Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill presciently says a second tax cut is unaffordable if we want to fight in Iraq—he's fired. Bush's economic adviser Larry Lindsey presciently says the war will cost between $100 billion and $200 billion (an underestimate)—he's fired. Army Gen. Eric Shinseki presciently says that winning in Iraq will require several hundred thousand troops—he's sent into early retirement. By contrast, CIA Director George Tenet, who presided over two of the greatest intelligence lapses in American history (9/11 and WMD in Iraq) and apparently helped spread "oppo ammo" to discredit the husband of a woman who had devoted her life to his agency, receives the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

The conventional Washington explanation is that this is just old-fashioned politics. As long as you don't lie to a grand jury, there's nothing illegal here. But the consequences of a bias for loyalty over debate—even internal debate—have been devastating. The same president who seeks democracy, transparency and dissent in Iraq is irritated by it at home. O'Neill tells his story in a book by Ron Suskind called "The Price of Loyalty," and that title is the missing link in explaining the failure of the Bush presidency. The price of loyalty is incompetence. Issues don't get aired; downside risks remain unassessed.

Instead of reaching out and encouraging disagreement, Bush let neocons like Libby and Paul Wolfowitz hijack his foreign policy. Amazingly, the pros and cons of invading Iraq were never even debated in the National Security Council. If you had doubts, like Colin Powell, you were marginalized. (Powell's former chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, said last week that a "cabal" of isolated policymakers ran a government of dangerous "ineptitude.") Consider the case of Brent Scowcroft. According to last week's New Yorker, former president Bush has tried to arrange a meeting between his old national-security adviser (and best friend) and his son. But after Scowcroft wrote a 2002 op-ed piece titled "Don't Attack Saddam," the president has consistently refused his own father's request. Now we know that Bush's lack of curiosity has proved fatal.

Paul Schroeder says that well-meaning people offer their condolences over Augie, "then they whisper to us, 'We oppose the war, too.' Why do they whisper?" Why? Because until now, the Bush White House has successfully peddled the idea that dissent is somehow unpatriotic. Paul and his wife, Rosemary, take a different view. "I think it's more patriotic to speak up," Rosemary says. "If the emperor has no clothes, or the president has no plan—then you have to speak out. Otherwise, you're putting all these lives in danger for no good cause."

The good news about the president's bad week is that even his conservative backers are no longer willing to keep quiet when they think he's wrong. And Fitzgerald was so impressive that the normal White House response—to savage the critic—was not an option this time. So Karl Rove survives, but the fear he stoked is easing. Four years after September 11, we're beginning to get our democracy back.
© 2005 Newsweek, Inc.

 

[BusaSamurai]

Has everyone forgot that it was in clintons term that all the politicians where screaming on how dangerous iraq was and how we needed to remove him(sadam) from power of course not but mark my word if a democrat would have won the election and went and did the same thing you wouldnt here all this wining and crying.it would have been justified and necessary go figure when is this country going to be united and not divided on all this bullxxxx. All of it is just to see who can get more votes in the end

 

[pure_ego]

Iran is not a problem..

Israel will blow Iran off the map the first time they give them ANY excuse too.. especially if the US doesn't kept Israels leash tight enough.

Hell.. Iran said they'd love to remove israel from the maps... within the last week! They just aren't stupid enough to try it yet because they know it would be like putting their hand into a lawn mower blade.

You let me know when you come up with a decent reason thats good enough to go to war.. with N Korea.. I'm all ears.

that arguement doesn't wash.

As far as all the investigation BS.. thats all political crap... has nothing to do with anything going on in the real world.

The democrats (and possibly rightly so..) are looking for any excuse to return the favor to the republicans from the Clinton debacle.

I'm not saying I agree with everything this gubmint is doing... but I would rather see them trying to do something as sitting their with their thumbs in their butts waiting on somebody over their to figure out how to get their hands on nukes.

 

[98vobra]

Good topic I like some of your thinking its nice to see people stand behind the guy that has the job for makeing decisions that not everyone will support. You can't please everyone.

 

[legbuh]

If Bush gets impeached for the Iraq war, then Michael Moore should go to prison for treason.

Even though I don't understand the long term goal of this war, I do know that it wasn't because of 9/11. Saddam has been a target for years, as already mentioned.

But when someone brings something like this up and starts quoting Michael Moore's propogandish manipulated garbage from his movie(s)... that pisses me off more than anything. They believe everything in these movies, and don't give other sources (books or movies) defending this crap a chance.

I even had one gentleman tell me "Bush is the most evil person in the world! He's worse than Hussain or anyone else out there!" While I don't care for any politician (except Ventura.. he rocked!), this wasn't fair at all... and odd coming from a devout Catholic. At least in my views.

If Kerry was president... not only would the war still be going on (I can see him in a briefing... "oh... that's why we're there... ok! send more troops!") but you can bet our taxes would be through the roof! Cut and spend vs. tax and spend... don't believe that "there isn't anything left to cut"... Every time I pay my quarterly taxes I am reminded of that.

Tangent post.. sorry..

 

[drumminman]

If Bush gets impeached for the Iraq war, then Michael Moore should go to prison for treason.

Even though I don't understand the long term goal of this war, I do know that it wasn't because of 9/11. Saddam has been a target for years, as already mentioned.

But when someone brings something like this up and starts quoting Michael Moore's propogandish manipulated garbage from his movie(s)... that pisses me off more than anything. They believe everything in these movies, and don't give other sources (books or movies) defending this crap a chance.

I even had one gentleman tell me "Bush is the most evil person in the world! He's worse than Hussain or anyone else out there!" While I don't care for any politician (except Ventura.. he rocked!), this wasn't fair at all... and odd coming from a devout Catholic. At least in my views.

If Kerry was president... not only would the war still be going on (I can see him in a briefing... "oh... that's why we're there... ok! send more troops!") but you can bet our taxes would be through the roof! Cut and spend vs. tax and spend... don't believe that "there isn't anything left to cut"... Every time I pay my quarterly taxes I am reminded of that.

Tangent post.. sorry..

Who quoted Michael Moore?