Should they take down the War Memorial Cross?

[captain]

One post from me on this and that is it.. My input here really isn't a stay or go thing it is more of how we got where we are....

I put something like this up the other day in a thread too.....

Never in the history of the United States have we ever seen so many people declairing their rights to freedom to do whatever they want. When you have this large influx of people that are standing firm that as an example that the cross should go you will have another group of people that declare the cross should stay. We are seeing this in many areas not just religion but in sexual orientation, freedom of speech and even freedom of movemements.

Personally I think that these probelms existed 50 years ago but people just handled the circumstances differently. People that typically scream tolerance are the first ones to put someone else down for their beliefs.

I heard a quote in a movie this week that I think hit perfectly to what I am trying to get across.....

A man stood up from a restraunt table and walked over to another table and asked if the 4 gentleman would stop smoking cigars, he asked nicely and stated that the smoke from the cigars was really effecting his meal. One of the smokers replied back and said "There isn't anything illegal about us smoking at this table" and told him to go away. The first man made this statement "It isn't illegal for me to come over here and fart on your entree either but I don't do it because it's rude and it lacks manners". The smoker refused and thus got his fingers broken......

While it may be a stretch to explain how I see things it does boil down to attitudes. Over the years people have just used manners and common sense and as a country we have lost that.

While I do love Freedom and I think people should be treated as equals there is no way that everyone is going to be treated equally, too many people, too many opinions and too many people that just dont care anymore.

So take the cross down or leave it up but don't be upset when someone farts on your idea and you can't do anything about it....

cap

 

[J'Man]

As a Christian - can you tell me what it is about Communism that is "evil"?

Honestly after your first response above I don't think I could take the rest of it serious, sorry.

It's all good man, we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[S4L]

As a Christian - can you tell me what it is about Communism that is "evil"?

Honestly after your first response above I don't think I could take the rest of it serious, sorry.

It's all good man, we'll just agree to disagree.

Maybe you should read a little before you judge.

Biblical citations This article uses one or more religious texts as primary sources without referring to secondary sources that critically analyze them. Please help improve this article by adding references to reliable secondary sources.


Christian communists hold the Biblical verses in Acts 2 and 4 as evidence that the first Christians lived in a communist society. see, for example, Prof. Thomas Wharton Collens, "Preaching" (March 1868), and Prof. José P. Miranda, ""Comunismo en la Biblia"" (1981), translated as, ""Communism in the Bible"" (Maryknoll, N.Y.: Orbis Books, 1982).

But, in addition, they also cite numerous other Biblical passages which, in their view, support the idea that communism is the most ethical social system and that it is the closest humans can come to living in accordance with God's will. The most often quoted of these Biblical citations are taken from the three synoptic Gospels, which describe the life and ministry of Jesus.

In the Gospel of Luke (1:49-53), Mary delivered the following description of the works of God:

49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. 51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

One of Jesus' most famous remarks regarding the wealthy can be found in Matthew 19:16-24 (the same event is also described in Mark 10:17-25 and Luke 18:18-25, and the metaphor of a camel going through the eye of a needle is common to both Matthew and Luke).

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why do you ask me about what is good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

However, Jesus Christ goes on to say that what is impossible with men is not impossible with God, implying that the grace of God can save a rich man. See Matthew 19:25-26, Mark 10:26-27 and Luke 18:26-27. For example, Matthew 19:25-26 says:

25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Jesus also described "money changers" (i.e. those engaged in currency exchange) as "thieves" and chased them out of the Temple in Jerusalem. This is described in Matthew 21:12-14, Mark 11:15, and John 2:14-16. The text in Matthew reads as follows:

12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. 14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

The phrase "love thy neighbor", repeatedly spoken by Jesus, is rather well known. Christian communists point out that Jesus considered this to be the second most important of all moral obligations, after loving God. Thus, they argue, a Christian society should be based first and foremost on these two commandments, and it should uphold them even more than it upholds such things as family values. The relevant Biblical verses are Mark 12:28-31:

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord; 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Finally, Jesus gave an account of the Last Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46, in which he identifies himself with the hungry, the poor and the sick, and states that good or evil done upon "the least of [God's] brethren" will be counted as good or evil done upon God himself. It is argued that Jesus is saying that nations, rather than individuals, would be judged according to the characteristics of their societies. If that is the case, this could imply that political and economic systems were being heavily critiqued as well:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory; 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats; 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 For I was hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in; 36 Naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.

In addition, communist references can be found in Leviticus 25:35-38: "If one [...] becomes poor [...] help him [...] so he can continue to live among you. Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God [...] You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God." and Acts 4:32-35, "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had [...] there were no needy persons among them [...] the money [...] was distributed to anyone as he had need." As well as Acts 2:42-47, "They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching [...] to the breaking of bread [...] everyone was filled with awe [...] all the believers were together and had everything in common [...] they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they [...] ate together with glad and sincere hearts [...] "


Hey - I have an even better idea - point me to scripture that supports a "dog eat dog" capitalistic, free market society please? No seriously.

 

[skydivr]

Well, at least we know you can cut and paste....

Seriously, I've never heard of a "Christian Communist" and have yet to see any country run under a Communist system (name one please) that didn't persecute religion.

 

[J'Man]

Maybe you should read a little before you judge.

Biblical citations This article uses one or more religious texts as primary sources without referring to secondary sources that critically analyze them. Please help improve this article by adding references to reliable secondary sources.


Christian communists hold the Biblical verses in Acts 2 and 4 as evidence that the first Christians lived in a communist society. see, for example, Prof. Thomas Wharton Collens, "Preaching" (March 1868), and Prof. José P. Miranda, ""Comunismo en la Biblia"" (1981), translated as, ""Communism in the Bible"" (Maryknoll, N.Y.: Orbis Books, 1982).

But, in addition, they also cite numerous other Biblical passages which, in their view, support the idea that communism is the most ethical social system and that it is the closest humans can come to living in accordance with God's will. The most often quoted of these Biblical citations are taken from the three synoptic Gospels, which describe the life and ministry of Jesus.

In the Gospel of Luke (1:49-53), Mary delivered the following description of the works of God:

49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. 51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

One of Jesus' most famous remarks regarding the wealthy can be found in Matthew 19:16-24 (the same event is also described in Mark 10:17-25 and Luke 18:18-25, and the metaphor of a camel going through the eye of a needle is common to both Matthew and Luke).

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why do you ask me about what is good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

However, Jesus Christ goes on to say that what is impossible with men is not impossible with God, implying that the grace of God can save a rich man. See Matthew 19:25-26, Mark 10:26-27 and Luke 18:26-27. For example, Matthew 19:25-26 says:

25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Jesus also described "money changers" (i.e. those engaged in currency exchange) as "thieves" and chased them out of the Temple in Jerusalem. This is described in Matthew 21:12-14, Mark 11:15, and John 2:14-16. The text in Matthew reads as follows:

12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. 14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

The phrase "love thy neighbor", repeatedly spoken by Jesus, is rather well known. Christian communists point out that Jesus considered this to be the second most important of all moral obligations, after loving God. Thus, they argue, a Christian society should be based first and foremost on these two commandments, and it should uphold them even more than it upholds such things as family values. The relevant Biblical verses are Mark 12:28-31:

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord; 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Finally, Jesus gave an account of the Last Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46, in which he identifies himself with the hungry, the poor and the sick, and states that good or evil done upon "the least of [God's] brethren" will be counted as good or evil done upon God himself. It is argued that Jesus is saying that nations, rather than individuals, would be judged according to the characteristics of their societies. If that is the case, this could imply that political and economic systems were being heavily critiqued as well:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory; 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats; 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 For I was hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in; 36 Naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.

In addition, communist references can be found in Leviticus 25:35-38: "If one [...] becomes poor [...] help him [...] so he can continue to live among you. Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God [...] You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God." and Acts 4:32-35, "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had [...] there were no needy persons among them [...] the money [...] was distributed to anyone as he had need." As well as Acts 2:42-47, "They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching [...] to the breaking of bread [...] everyone was filled with awe [...] all the believers were together and had everything in common [...] they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they [...] ate together with glad and sincere hearts [...] "


Hey - I have an even better idea - point me to scripture that supports a "dog eat dog" capitalistic, free market society please? No seriously.

For those wanting to equate the cherry picked verses of sharing with the idea of modern day communism or socialism, I would suggest a short course in Biblical Theology. Christianity teaches that it is up to the individual to care for others, whereas, Communism and/or socialism demands forced equality enacted by the government or an authoritarian figure. While it is the Christian's obligation to look after the widows and the poor, Paul specifically told the Thessalonians in his 2nd letter to them, that if any would not work neither should he eat. (2 Thessalonians 3:10) Whereas communism and/or socialism on the other hand, not only promotes, but demands that those who work will feed those who are lazy and will not work. This is not what Christ taught. Jesus did not have the Good Samaritan in Luke's Gospel tell the injured man in the road to seek a government social worker. The Good Samaritan gave of what was his own willingly, not under the duress of the state. (Luke 10:25-37)

 

[S4L]

For those wanting to equate the cherry picked verses of sharing with the idea of modern day communism or socialism, I would suggest a short course in Biblical Theology. Christianity teaches that it is up to the individual to care for others, whereas, Communism and/or socialism demands forced equality enacted by the government or an authoritarian figure. While it is the Christian's obligation to look after the widows and the poor, Paul specifically told the Thessalonians in his 2nd letter to them, that if any would not work neither should he eat. (2 Thessalonians 3:10) Whereas communism and/or socialism on the other hand, not only promotes, but demands that those who work will feed those who are lazy and will not work. This is not what Christ taught. Jesus did not have the Good Samaritan in Luke's Gospel tell the injured man in the road to seek a government social worker. The Good Samaritan gave of what was his own willingly, not under the duress of the state. (Luke 10:25-37)

I commend you for taking me seriously, you actually might have an idea of what you are talking about ::

I'll do a little copy and pasting however...again.. This is from a yahoo message board and sums it up quite nicely, kinda goes with the whole - contradictions in the Bible thing. here it goes:

What does this verse mean? 2 Thessalonians 3:10-13?
2 Thessalonians 3:10-13 (New International Version)

10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

11We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat. 13And as for you, brothers, never tire of doing what is right.
10 months ago Report Abuse by Don H

Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
It means that Paul was a fraud, and his teachings are the polar opposite of everything that Jesus ever stood for.

Love and blessings Don

Well, at least we know you can cut and paste....

Seriously, I've never heard of a "Christian Communist" and have yet to see any country run under a Communist system (name one please) that didn't persecute religion.

Yes I cut and paste, I have come to the conclusion that putting forth any more effort for this board, or for anyone really, is an unnecessary waist of my time. Are you saying that the information I provided is not of value?

I have yet to see a truly communist country. Communism - as far as I have read..is more of an idealism, a form of utopia moreso than an actually functioning society. Russia was truly not a communist country - the little that I have read. Nor is China. If you look at the history of Communism, it wasn't until later was it bastardized into an "atheist" political system.

Communism is an idealism like Democracy. A democracy SOUNDS nice... Every man has a vote, every man has a say, but when you inject realism into both of these political ideologies, one quickly realizes just how flawed a system each of them are.

I am talking about a true democracy, not a republic - or the other twenty branches that fall under the umbrella known as democracy.

 

[J'Man]

I commend you for taking me seriously, you actually might have an idea of what you are talking about ::

I'll do a little copy and pasting however...again.. This is from a yahoo message board and sums it up quite nicely, kinda goes with the whole - contradictions in the Bible thing. here it goes:

What does this verse mean? 2 Thessalonians 3:10-13?
2 Thessalonians 3:10-13 (New International Version)

10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

11We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat. 13And as for you, brothers, never tire of doing what is right.
10 months ago Report Abuse by Don H

Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
It means that Paul was a fraud, and his teachings are the polar opposite of everything that Jesus ever stood for.

Love and blessings Don



Yes I cut and paste, I have come to the conclusion that putting forth any more effort for this board, or for anyone really, is an unnecessary waist of my time. Are you saying that the information I provided is not of value?

I have yet to see a truly communist country. Communism - as far as I have read..is more of an idealism, a form of utopia moreso than an actually functioning society. Russia was truly not a communist country - the little that I have read. Nor is China. If you look at the history of Communism, it wasn't until later was it bastardized into an "atheist" political system.

Communism is an idealism like Democracy. A democracy SOUNDS nice... Every man has a vote, every man has a say, but when you inject realism into both of these political ideologies, one quickly realizes just how flawed a system each of them are.

I am talking about a true democracy, not a republic - or the other twenty branches that fall under the umbrella known as democracy.

I guess it's a good thing then that I don't rely on Yahoo board opinions for direction in my life. In all seriousness I understand your point, however in my opinion Communism can never achieve what Jesus taught. If it helps you feel any better, Capitalism doesn't either, but again in my opinion it gets us as close as we can be here on earth. On that note I'll stop since since we've already gotten pretty far off track from the original topic and I'm supposed to be researching a cruise for the wifey tonight.

By the way what does S4L stand for? Just curious..