Question for you military guys

[FloydV]

I caught part of an episode on The History Channel about the M16, and they were talking about how the M16 cartridge had changed to a heavier round since Vietnam.

If memory serves, the Vietnam era saw the M16 using a .223 cartridge, which is kind of weak compared to an AK47 which uses a round comparable to a 30-30. The only cartridges that come to mind that might have been substituted in the M16 are the .243 which packs a bigger wallop, and a 22-250 which is a kind of necked down 30-06 case that uses a .22 bullet (not a likely candidate).

So, which cartridge does the M16 use today?

I asked a woman who was (I'm not kidding) a Lt. Colonel in the U. S. Army (10 years retired) and she didn't know. WTF?

Anyway, some of you guys fill me in, please.

[rubbersidedown]

not military,not even an American....

but....

5.56mmm

[CBXRider]

.223 isn't it?

[Revlis]

5.56 NATO is .223cal Same same.

Bullet weight itself is a bit heavier since the 70's but still the same cartridge. Make sense?

So yeah, 5.56mm or Civilian .223.

camparing the Ak's 7.62X39mm Vs the 5.56 is like comparing the .45 and the .357, both effective, they just do the same job differently with a big edge to .223 in accuracy.

[FastCurrey]

Rev, it kinda freaks me out how you know so much about bullets.  The only way I could have come up with that answer is to go to my tech data.  I have been working "hands on" ammo for 14 years and don't know what you just seemed to throw out so casually...I knew the answer but you went into some detail.

Note to self...stay on Rev's good side.



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[Revlis]

Me? Nah Talk to Thrasher, or Bulletrain.

Heck, I'm "Just the Graphics Guy" Combat Crayon ya know?

[Lazerblade]

Rev is right. The .223 has been made a bit better. When we got our M4's here at Camp Shelby, we had a class on bullets for the M16 and M4. If you put old .223's in a M4, you could have problems they said.

[Professor]

5.56 NATO is .223cal  Same same.

Bullet weight itself is a bit heavier since the 70's but still the same cartridge.  Make sense?

So yeah, 5.56mm or Civilian .223.  

This is correct. When the A2 models (I thought in the 80s however) came out they went from a 55 grain bullet to a 62 grain bullet. The twist in the barrel changed. I believe it was from a 1 in 12â€￾ to a 1 in 7â€￾ to stabilize the heavier bullet.

[FloydV]

Thanks guys. Either the show was wrong or I heard wrong. I thought we were still using the same cartridge and we are. I had the AK pictured way wrong though. Someone at SH.org said the M16 bullet is about 52 grains and the AK is about 123 grains. I thought the AK was maybe in the neighborhood of 230 grains.

Anyway, most of the replies indicate that the M16 was a lot more accurate and the size of the two is similar.

[FastCurrey]

Anyway, most of the replies indicate that the M16 was a lot more accurate and the size of the two is similar.

If I was allowed to have a camera in the bay I could post a pic, i know how you guys are about your pictures. They are similar but you can deffinately tell the difference just by a quick glance.

[vincent]

The AK uses a larger, slower round that puts a big damned hole in ya

The 16 uses (as mentioned) 5.56. Very fast round that is a bit smaller. If you can find some after action reports pay attention to what is said about the 16's effectiveness when you don't hit bone. If you hit someone in the stomach area and there is no bone struck, the round will go straight through them fast enough that they stay standing and fighting for about 30 sec. afterwards.
Hit a person in the same spot with the AK, they fall right there.

The difference in the rounds is not as big as the difference in the weapons. The AK was not made for long distance accuracy. It is fairly accurate up to about 300 yds while the 16 is rated to hit a point target out to 550yds.

This debate is the assault rifle equivalent to the 9mm or .45 cal debate.

[hydrabusa]

well, it was too light alright, so they went for bit bigger grain...but the same cartridges, and thats why, AK went to AK74 models year 1974and I've seen some...( I think they must be impressed by M16's power range...) they cut that down to from 7.62mm to 5.45mm x 39mm....and this is twices stronger bullets...it will tear anything in its way...
well...then on top of  that something elses there, but thats another story...



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[Bergster]

I like the 7.62X39 for all around use, hunting and they are cheaper for plinking at the range.

P.S. the .223 (5.56) is on the left, 7.62X39 center and a battery on the right. (just in case)

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[chrisjp]

how did you get that battery in the chamber and was it to fire the laser?

[Bergster]

how did you get that battery in the chamber and was it to fire the laser?

The battery works better if you throw it.

[TennBusa]

Guys, I shoot the AR15 in high power competition. We shoot match grade bullets at all the distances. I use the Hornady 75 grain at 200 and 300 yards and the Sierra 80 grain at 600 yards with 24 grains of Varget powder at approximately 2400 fps. All bullets measure .224. My barrel is a 1 in 8 twist at 20" to spin up the heavier bullets. The Army team shoots the AR's at 1000 yards, but you have to push them heavy to do it. I can't see good enough to shoot 1000 yards, and I don't get to walk over to the armorer's trailer and pick up a new rifle when I blow up the old one.

Dan

[Aughtsix]

FAV - The standard rounds used when I was in were the M193 (the standard lead core 55gr round) and the M194 (the 54gr red-tipped tracer version). These were used with a 1:12 twist.

Today (to the best of my knowledge) the troops use the NATO Standard M855 (62gr green-tipped, lead core/steel penetrator round) and the M856 (orange-tipped tracer version). These are used with a 1:7 twist to properly stabilize the long M856 round. The M855 will properly stabilize in a 1:9 twist.

Both rounds are the same case shape/size and bore diameter. The difference is in bullet weight and construction. The M855 is far superior to the old M193 for virtually any task asked of it.

But the round - as a military main battle rifle round - sucks goats in my opinion.

Interesting to note that the US has re-commissioned stockpiles of the "old" M14 (7.62x51 NATO) and are passing them out like cigarettes since what seemed to work okay on a 95lb combatant wearing black pajamas isn't working out too well on a 195lb combatant wearing three layers of wool.

[Bergster]

7.62X51 is a .308 win right?

[Aughtsix]

7.62X51 is a .308 win  right?

For all intents and purposes, yes.

There are very slight case dimension (neck) differences, but usually one will chamber the other.

[Bergster]

7.62X51 is a .308 win right?

For all intents and purposes, yes.

There are very slight case dimension (neck) differences, but usually one will chamber the other.

super round I had one of those years ago.