Open carry at local bike night

It is Pandora's box that the NRA is going to fight to the death to keep nailed shut, and given some of stunts played by some liberals, I prefer not to take ANY chances with that one, because gun ownership is the key right that protects ALL THE OTHERS.
 
The problem I have with a requirement of demonstrated ability is that it pushes the ownership from a right to a privilege (like driving). That's why I am against any sort of required class etc. It's a principle thing (and I'm sure in the legal world as well).

Regarding the OC vs CC carry, I see both sides of that discussion. Open carry to demonstrate that right and to acclimate the public to people carrying. Concealed carry for the advantage of criminals not knowing who is armed.
 
Well, I can paint for you the Pandora’s box scenario many liberals fear. First of all, based on how I see the constitution in its historical context the right to bear arms is fabricated by the right wing fairly recently (just like the right wing tries to claim “in God we trust” was written by the founders when it was adopted in the 50’s). They have really pushed this issue and even stacked the court to render a decision declaring gun ownership a right (sort of, they still held that gun control was possible). Guns have been controlled throughout most of our history and we were not able to progress as a civilization until guns were properly controlled.

So many liberals see this as a real threat. When we see things like gun shops not welcoming minority customers, denying permits to minorities or People like Zimmerman picking a fight and then shooting an unarmed black kid dead we see gun rights as potentially something more sinister. It was not that long ago that terrorism was used to hold minorities in check in this country and this could be a slippery slope to that again. If you relax the laws to let people shoot people, then the courts don’t enforce shooting minorities, well then there’s a problem. It sounds a little crazy until you see state governments passing laws to cut minorities off voter rolls or laws like the stand your ground law.

Why is the right wing so unreasonable about guns? Why do they resist even common sense control (note recent laws allowing OC guns in bars!)? Just doesn’t add up from my point of view.
 
Arch, As a white man I cannot feel your fear of this, but I fear more the overreaching arms of a government who, if too powerful, can do what they want (look at 1930's Germany). As long as you have the same right to have a gun as I, you should not feel as threatened. I'd frankly be more worried if I were you if the Government was the ONLY entitiy that had guns.

If your reference to cutting minorities off voting rolls has to do with having an ID to vote, I totally don't buy that, either.
 
Arch, As a white man I cannot feel your fear of this, but I fear more the overreaching arms of a government who, if too powerful, can do what they want (look at 1930's Germany). As long as you have the same right to have a gun as I, you should not feel as threatened. I'd frankly be more worried if I were you if the Government was the ONLY entitiy that had guns.

If your reference to cutting minorities off voting rolls has to do with having an ID to vote, I totally don't buy that, either.

1. 100% agree - govet can't be the only ones with guns. But 4 things caused the 1930 Germany: 1. lack of guns, desperate economic times, racism, and propaganda.
2. Why pass a law to fix a nonexistent problem? Only reasonable answer is to put as many hurdles as possible in front of the people you don't want to vote. That's been an acknowledged strategy since they had poll taxes.
 
1. Well, we've almost got three of the four now...but we all got guns - so I don't think for the moment 1930's Germany (the 'final solution' part) can repeat itself..the fact that the populace IS armed is exactly what prevents it.
2. I'd say people voting who are dead, illegal, underaged and using someone elses name aren't exactly 'nonexistent' - of course, this is an entirely different subject.
 
1. Well, we've almost got three of the four now...but we all got guns - so I don't think for the moment 1930's Germany (the 'final solution' part) can repeat itself..the fact that the populace IS armed is exactly what prevents it.
2. I'd say people voting who are dead, illegal, underaged and using someone elses name aren't exactly 'nonexistent' - of course, this is an entirely different subject.

1. yup.
2. yup (different subject).

We did agree on a couple thingsthere though......:laugh:
 
open carried all day at roar on the shore...place was flooded with cops (including standing beside me while they were watching the stunt show too) walking among the crowd. armed security everywhere...thousands of people..even stood in the middle of a KIX concert and the only thing...and i mean only thing i heard was complements on the gun and women coming up to me talking about theirs....
 
The problem I have with a requirement of demonstrated ability is that it pushes the ownership from a right to a privilege (like driving). That's why I am against any sort of required class etc. It's a principle thing (and I'm sure in the legal world as well).

To OC or CC or even own everyone should be required to take a class. principle, rights vs. privelege be damned. Not only should they be able to demonstrate safe handling skills they should have to demonstrate a a basic understanding of some sort of use of force continuum. knowing when to use a firearm is just as important as knowing how.
 
food for though...good read. well spoken and articulate about the reality open carry.


The Open Carry Argument

My primary goal when I’m out and about, besides whatever I went out and about to do, is to go about peaceably and not be the victim of a violent crime. To that end I carry a firearm whenever I go out as well as follow all the other standard safety practices like maintaining situational awareness, staying out of high crime areas, and avoiding confrontation. I also have a larger overall goal of making it through my life without shooting anyone. Simply put, I don’t want to be responsible, legally or morally, for another’s death. Those two goals might appear at first blush to be mutually exclusive, and with concealed carry it would be a difficult set of goals to realize.

Carry of any firearm or other weapon for defensive purposes is a solemn responsibility. Those of us that do (openly or concealed) are mortified by the idea, constantly promoted by the pacifists, that our behavior is more reckless because we are armed. In other words, because we carry a handgun we take more risks than we would if we were unarmed. While it would be dishonest to claim we are all responsible gun owners, it is my belief that the vast majority of us are. Regardless of what or how you carry, you need to come to the realization that you are setting yourself up to lose. Whenever you are placed in a defensive situation, you will always lose; it’s only the degree of loss that’s negotiable. Ayoob hits on this in his book, In the Gravest Extreme. He suggests tossing the robber a small wad of cash and moving off, even if you could prevail with a weapon. There’s a very good reason for this. Regardless of how skilled you are at drawing your weapon, you are going to lose. It may be only a minor loss, like being very shaken up and not sleeping well for a few days, or it may be a major loss, like becoming fertilizer, or (most likely) it may be somewhere in-between, but you always lose. Your life will not be the same even if you prevail.

Carrying a concealed firearm presents to a criminal that I am unarmed. Every study I’ve ever read, not most but every study, says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. That only makes sense, right? Robbers, rapists, or carjackers might be dumb and opportunistic, but they have the same instinctual sense of self preservation we all have. Hyenas don’t attack lions to steal the gazelle the lions have just killed. It’s all about risk management; are the potential gains (a tasty gazelle dinner) worth the risks (pain and damage the lion’s teeth will cause), and does the hyena really need to test the lion to figure out the answer? No, the hyena can see the lion’s teeth and knows to stay well clear.

Deterrent Value:
When I’m carrying concealed I feel like my ‘teeth’ are hidden, and thus of no real deterrent value. If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all. I recognize that there are some people who (think they) want to be victimized so they can whip out their concealed firearm and ‘surprise’ the mugger; that is, in my opinion, foolish immaturity. Concealed carry is good; it throws a wrench in the works for criminals who might see the teeming masses as a smorgasbord of financial gain. This deterrent effect is, nonetheless, indirect and often nil. At some point the thug will weigh the risks vs. the gains; is his current desperation for money/drugs/booze/gold grille greater than the gamble that one of those people might be carrying a gun? If he decides to play the odds, which helped along with surprise tip the scale in his favor, he will attack. Will his attack allow enough time for me to draw my concealed firearm to affect a defense? Maybe, but then again, maybe not.

Remember, I don’t want to be a victim and I don’t want to shoot anyone. So how do I realize both goals; or how do I make them inclusive? I can do that through open carry. By making it clear and obvious that I am armed, that I have teeth, I tip the risk scale to the point that the criminal’s gains are far outweighed by the risk. There is no ambiguity when the thug is doing his risk assessment, there’s something right there in plain sight that can quickly and painfully change or terminate his life. You may not think his life has much value, but as I mentioned before, he has the same sense of self preservation as any other living creature and to him it’s every bit as valuable as yours is to you. It would be foolish to ignore this indisputable fact when you develop your overall tactical strategy.

The Five Stages of Violent Crime
I am a firm believer in this defense theology and urge anyone who carries a firearm for protection (and even those who do not) to follow the link and read it carefully. Please, for your and your family’s sake, read that. Drill down into the hyperlinks for better explanations; absorb as much information as you can. A violent crime does not begin at the point where one person with ill intent draws a weapon or attacks another.
The Five Stages of Violent Crime:
Crime and violence are processes that take time to develop. The attack is not the first step, the preliminary triangle must be built. There are five distinct stages that are easily identified:
1) Intent
2) Interview
3) Positioning
4) Attack
5) Reaction
I do not believe the act begins after the BG has made his intentions known by drawing on you (attack); it began when he formed the intent. Well, there’s not a lot I can do personally to stop another’s intent, so I need to look a little farther along in the sequence and try to derail that train before it gets to the attack. For the sake of argument, let’s remove weapons from the equation for just a moment. A 5’2” unarmed attacker isn’t going to choose a 6’6” victim over a 5’1” victim, right? He’s going to attack the easier target. Now let’s come back to the reality of violent crime and add back the weapons. Concealed carry presumes it is better to wait until the opponent has drawn his knife or gun and then try to ‘fix’ the situation. It’s seems a bit foolish to promote the idea that it’s better to attempt to stop a violent crime in the fourth stage when you could instead prevent it in the second. A concealed weapon cannot deter an attack at the ‘interview’ stage; it’s completely ineffectual in that role. Open carry is the only method that provides a direct deterrent. Let’s say the bad-guy missed the openly carried pistol and holster during the interview stage, and has proceeded to the ‘positioning’ stage. Chances are pretty good he’ll see it at some point then, right? Then, let’s say the planets have all aligned just so and he, for whatever reason, has begun his attack despite your openly carried sidearm. At this point, the OCer is on level footing with the CCer, the attack has begun. Who has the advantage? Well, I’m going to say that with all things being equal (skill level and equipment) the OCer has a speed of draw advantage over the CCer.

First One To Be Shot:
There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or ‘the first one shot’ when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. If the robber walks in and sees that you’re armed, his whole plan has encountered an unexpected variable. In bank robberies where he might expect to see an armed guard he will have already factored that possibility into his plan, but only for the armed guard, not for open or concealed carry citizens. No robber robs a bank without at least a rudimentary plan. Nevertheless, being present for a bank robbery is an extremely remote possibility for most of us regardless of our preferred method of handgun carry, so let’s go back in the 7-11. If the robber sees someone is armed he is forced to either significantly alter the plan or abort it outright. Robbing is an inherently apprehensive occupation, and one that doesn’t respond well to instant modifications. He is not prepared to commit murder when he only planned for larceny. He knows that a petty robbery will not garner the intense police manhunt a murder would. He doesn’t know if you’re an armed citizen or a police officer and isn’t going to take the time to figure it out. Either way, if someone in the 7-11 is unexpectedly armed, how many others might be similarly adorned and where might they be? Does this unexpectedly armed individual have a partner who is likewise armed nearby, someone who is watching right now? Self preservation compels him to abort the plan for one that is less risky. So we see that the logic matches the history; open carriers are not the first ones shot because it doesn’t make sense in any common street crime scenario that they would be. If your personal self protection plan emphasizes “Hollywood” style crimes over the more realistic street mugging, it might be best to stay home.

Surprise:
Probably the most common condemnation of open carry comes from the armchair tacticians who believe it’s better to have the element of surprise in a criminal encounter. Although this was touched on in the previous paragraph about deterrence, I’ll expand on it specifically here because there are some important truths you need to consider before you lean too heavily on this false support. Surprise as a defensive tactic is often based on unrealistic or ill-thought out scenarios, and seems to exist only in the minds of concealed carry firearms proponents. The circumstance where several street toughs surround and taunt you for a while before robbing you, like in some Charles Bronson movie, is not realistic; the mugger wants to get in and out as fast as possible. In most cases you will have only seconds to realize what’s happening, make a decision, and react. Imagine you’re walking along the sidewalk when two gangsta looking teenagers suddenly appear at the corner coming in the opposite direction. You have only seconds to react if their intent was to victimize you. Do you draw your concealed firearm now or wait until there’s an actual visible threat? If they are just on their way to church and you pull a gun on them, you are the criminal and you will likely forever lose your firearms rights for such a foolish action. If you don’t draw and they pull a knife or pistol when they’re just a couple steps away, your only options are draw (if you think you can) or comply. Imagine staring at the shiny blade of a knife being held by a very nervous and violent mugger, three inches from your or your wife’s throat and having to decide whether or not you have time to draw from concealment. The element of surprise may not do you any good; in fact the only surprising thing that might happen is that your concealed carry pistol gets taken along with your wallet. The thug will later get a good chuckle with his buddies about how you brought a gun to a knife fight. The simple truth is that while surprise is a monumentally superior tactical maneuver, it is exclusively an offensive action, not a defensive one. What many internet commandos call ‘defensive surprise’ is nothing more than damage control, a last ditch effort to fight your way back out of a dangerous situation. I am not aware of any army that teaches using surprise as a defense against attack. No squad of soldiers goes on patrol with their weapons hidden so that they can ‘surprise’ the enemy should they walk into an ambush.

It Will Get Stolen:
Another common criticism of open carry is that the firearm itself will be the target of theft, prompting a criminal to attack simply to get the gun from you. Like the previous example of being the first one shot in a robbery, above, this is despite the fact that there is no credible evidence it happens. It also blindly ignores the more obvious fact that anything you possess can make you the target of a crime, be it a car, a watch, or even a female companion (girlfriend, wife, or daughter). Crooks commonly steal for only one of two reasons; to get something you have that they want, or to get something that you have so they can sell it and buy something they want. I don’t claim it could never happen; just that it’s so remote a possibility that it doesn’t warrant drastic alterations to our self defense strategies. If you believe otherwise, leave your wife, children, watch, sunglasses, jewelry, and cell phone at home, hop into your Pinto wagon, and head out to do your thing. Very often, someone critical of open carry will cite some example of a uniformed police officer whose gun was taken by a violent criminal, and yes, this does indeed happen. The argument, however, breaks down when they assume the officer was targeted solely to steal his firearm. What is more likely is that the officer was targeted merely for being a police officer and the gun was stolen as a byproduct of the attack. More often, the officer’s gun is taken during the struggle to get the suspect into custody due to an entirely unrelated matter. However, let’s suppose, for argument, that a police officer really was attacked just to get his firearm. What actions did the police department take to prevent it from reoccurring? Did they demand that their officers carry concealed? No, of course not. You should, like the police, prioritize your defense strategy for the most likely threat first, and the least likely last.

It Scares People:
One other statement against open carry I hear is that it damages public perception of firearms owners, or that by carrying openly we are not being good ambassadors to the public. While there are some people who have a genuine fear of firearms, due either to some horrible past experience or anti-gun indoctrination, the majority of people are either indifferent to them or quite fascinated by them. I’ve never kept track of the dozens of fellow citizens I’ve encountered who have marveled at the idea of open carry, but I do know exactly how many have expressed displeasure at it; one. People are scared of many things for many reasons; however, pretending those things do not exist only perpetuates the fear. Someone who is disturbed by open carry is going to be every bit as disturbed by concealed carry. The only effective way to overcome a fear is to come to the intellectual realization that the phobia is based on emotion and not on fact. By being a firsthand witness that a firearm was carried responsibly and peaceably, and wasn’t being carried in the commission of a crime, one who was apprehensive about firearms discovers their fear is not fact based, but emotional. Thus, open carry can be a very effectual way of helping to overcome the emotionally based fear of the firearm. After all, you’d be much more likely to believe in ghosts if you saw one rather than if you listened to a ghost story around a campfire. In other words, we give significantly more credibility to the things we experience than we do to the things we hear. The bottom line is that this argument is made by people who don’t, cant, or haven’t carried openly; those of us who do so on a regular basis have an entirely different experience.

I’m Not Comfortable Carrying Openly:
This is really the only reasonable argument against open carry for an individual. We all have a comfort zone for any aspect of our lives and we prefer to stay within that comfort zone. We all agree that it’s better to be armed and never need the firearm than it is to need it and not have it. There is a point where concealing your firearm becomes so problematic, due to conditions like temperature or comfort, that some choose to either leave it behind or carry in such a way that it would be difficult or impossible to draw it quickly. If it takes me five or six seconds to draw my firearm from deep concealment and I had sufficient time before hand to actually do so, I would prefer to use that five or six seconds to avoid the entire encounter. I’m glad we have concealed carry laws in most of the states; it empowers and protects not only us but the general public through the offset deterrent effect. Some of us, however, choose the more direct deterrent effect of open carry.

Conclusion
No, open carry is not the be-all-end-all of self defense any more than concealed carry is. The purpose of this essay is not to convince you to carry a firearm openly, but to merely point out the reasoning I used to determine that it is often the best option for me. If you think otherwise, please feel free to write an essay of your own outlining the reasoning you used. I would suggest that you avoid the intellectual mistake of emphasizing rare or unlikely defense scenarios that many of us will never experience. I believe one should prioritize for the most likely threat, not the least likely threat. I don’t put Hollywood style bank robberies high on my threat list because I rarely go into a bank and those types of robberies are very rare themselves. I live in the most crime riddled city in the northwest; the most likely threat here is some young male with a knife or gun trying to carjack me or mug me on the street, in the park, or in a parking lot. With this knowledge I build my personal self protection plan based on that manner of attack. This may not suit you, especially if you live in Hollywood.
 
Chris. the most important factors you stated are your goals of OC and how those goals are realized by you OC'ing. However your piece implies that having the firearm visible is the sole determining factor in whether or not you will be victimized. while OC can minimize your chances of being victimized, CC or No carry for that matter doesnt necessarily increase youre chances and being victimized wont always warrant deadly force. youre right in saying that criminals PREFER a soft target. However, hard targets are also victimized. Gun grabs are also real enough that weapon retention is trained. If someone wants to take it from u and thinks they can take it from you, they will attempt to and not just in a fight scenario as an afterthought. and as for car jacking, your firearm isnt visible (unless u just mean on the busa) so its not a deterrent factor. those are general enough that i just wanted to mention them. anything else would be just trying to poke holes in your position (which is not my intent). you take a few liberties in your scenarios BUT your position makes sense and serves your purpose and thats what matters.
 
Man, what an issue! Marines, LA County Harbor Patrol, LA County rescue dive team, US Coast Guard, LA County Sheriff's Dept. and now as 50 state carry id (retired peace officer). I've always had a piece. AND I'm very liberal...weird huh. I just have a hard time making it OK for Crips, Bloods, 18th St., neo-nazis, all the "crews and cliques" of our Country to legally walk in the 7-11 behind me with twin Glock 40's hanging low and on display. (many would be surprised how many DON'T have official criminal records to prohibit it). This is one of those, "I sure hope you see and agree with this problem I raise" posts!
Right now I kinda fall into the CC group with performance qualifications standards required (just like my retired peace officer federal law...if I have to demonstrate capability/proficiency given my background, shouldn't everybody?). And one more thing, cops and emergency responders really know this one....one out of every six persons at any given time is either intoxicated or mentally ill....where does that fit in? "I'm takin that shiny machine gun to Disneyland".
 
I just don't buy it. I can't believe you walk around with so much fear that you need a gun. Granted that a 300 pound black guy isn't going to be a first choice crime target gun or not; but I just don't have that much fear about my fellow citizens on a day to day basis. I do watch what's going on, avoid problem areas and try to avoid conflicts but that's mostly just being civilized. But the truth is I find most people are generally pretty cool, even some of the rednecks I run into down here in the sticks - they just want to get along basically and if you say hello and are polite they help you with what you need and are done with it.

I also think carrying a gun for that one time a crazy starts an execution party is statistacally so unlikely to happen. It doesn't make sense to OC and expose yourself to the risk created by the gun that is 100 times more real than the chances of being caught in a crazy man's shooting spree.

So if you want to hunt, fine. If you collect guns, fine. Even if you want to prepare for doomsday, fine. Just do it where it's safe to you and the public around you - but keep weapons out of provacative locations. If I see a bunch of guys wearing guns then i think wow, maybe I need a gun too. Next thing you know everyone is armed and that means innocent people are going to get hurt. That's a proven fact.
 
I just don't buy it. I can't believe you walk around with so much fear that you need a gun. Granted that a 300 pound black guy isn't going to be a first choice crime target gun or not; but I just don't have that much fear about my fellow citizens on a day to day basis. I do watch what's going on, avoid problem areas and try to avoid conflicts but that's mostly just being civilized. But the truth is I find most people are generally pretty cool, even some of the rednecks I run into down here in the sticks - they just want to get along basically and if you say hello and are polite they help you with what you need and are done with it.

I also think carrying a gun for that one time a crazy starts an execution party is statistacally so unlikely to happen. It doesn't make sense to OC and expose yourself to the risk created by the gun that is 100 times more real than the chances of being caught in a crazy man's shooting spree.

So if you want to hunt, fine. If you collect guns, fine. Even if you want to prepare for doomsday, fine. Just do it where it's safe to you and the public around you - but keep weapons out of provacative locations. If I see a bunch of guys wearing guns then i think wow, maybe I need a gun too. Next thing you know everyone is armed and that means innocent people are going to get hurt. That's a proven fact.

I agree on some points here.. Chris you look like a big guy from your profile picture, that for one will help from being a target. A criminal is most likely attack a small female which they can easily physically control not a large size male that they may get into a scuffle with.
Fallen.. you stated "I can't believe you walk around with so much fear that you need a gun"
I get a kick out of this comment from those that dont carry a firearm for personal protection.... I ask you this, if insurance wasnt mandatory would you still have it to protect yourself incase of an accident? Well I feel my gun I carry concealed is my life insurance I carry. No I dont show my gun off just as I dont show my insurance card off when I am driving down the interstate or when that person blows a Yield sign merging into my lane. But it gives me a peace of mind that I have other ways to protect myself besides waiting on police to show up in a situation to where I could recieve bodily harm or death from a low life POS scum trying to take something away..
Am I scared no, but you better bring your A game if you plan on taking something away from or trying to harm me.

Chris I just hope you are using the proper holster when you open carry to prevent anyone trying to disarm you on surprise.
 
fallenarch said:
I just don't buy it. I can't believe you walk around with so much fear that you need a gun. Granted that a 300 pound black guy isn't going to be a first choice crime target gun or not; but I just don't have that much fear about my fellow citizens on a day to day basis. I do watch what's going on, avoid problem areas and try to avoid conflicts but that's mostly just being civilized. But the truth is I find most people are generally pretty cool, even some of the rednecks I run into down here in the sticks - they just want to get along basically and if you say hello and are polite they help you with what you need and are done with it.

I feel the same way about all those guys that dress like they are Casey Stoner on the pole for the next race every time they ride.
It's just paranoia run rampant:whistle:

The above statement is intended to be dripping with sarcasm.

From my dunce stool :cookoo:
 
I agree on some points here.. Chris you look like a big guy from your profile picture, that for one will help from being a target. A criminal is most likely attack a small female which they can easily physically control not a large size male that they may get into a scuffle with.
Fallen.. you stated "I can't believe you walk around with so much fear that you need a gun"
I get a kick out of this comment from those that dont carry a firearm for personal protection.... I ask you this, if insurance wasnt mandatory would you still have it to protect yourself incase of an accident? Well I feel my gun I carry concealed is my life insurance I carry. No I dont show my gun off just as I dont show my insurance card off when I am driving down the interstate or when that person blows a Yield sign merging into my lane. But it gives me a peace of mind that I have other ways to protect myself besides waiting on police to show up in a situation to where I could recieve bodily harm or death from a low life POS scum trying to take something away..
Am I scared no, but you better bring your A game if you plan on taking something away from or trying to harm me.

Chris I just hope you are using the proper holster when you open carry to prevent anyone trying to disarm you on surprise.

I suppose I could be naive Lankee, but I just trust people a little more than that. It could be my size, as I'm just not a good target, and i live in a pretty good area and rarely venture too far into the "real world" I guess. I will admit that i am looking at some long trips and protecting the bike at events and hotels is a pretty heavy priority.

The insurance arguement is not a good analogy. Insurance is an admission that material things are expendable and can be replaced with another one of the same make and model. To be honest, I'm not sure I would be willing to kill someone over a Busa, even if it were miine and they were stealing it. I would kill someone for my country, or to protect life or my family, but for a piece of metal? It's hard to say what I would do at the moment if confronted by the situation; but sitting here rational I would not kill someone over a motorcycle.
 
fallenarch said:
To be honest, I'm not sure I would be willing to kill someone over a Busa, even if it were miine and they were stealing it. I would kill someone for my country, or to protect life or my family, but for a piece of metal? It's hard to say what I would do at the moment if confronted by the situation; but sitting here rational I would not kill someone over a motorcycle.

See then you would someone responsible enough to carry in my opinion. I do not carry or own a gun but will soon. By what I have been taught the only time you shoot is when your life or the life of someone else is on the line. Not for your car or bike.
 
I suppose I could be naive Lankee, but I just trust people a little more than that. It could be my size, as I'm just not a good target, and i live in a pretty good area and rarely venture too far into the "real world" I guess. I will admit that i am looking at some long trips and protecting the bike at events and hotels is a pretty heavy priority.

The insurance arguement is not a good analogy. Insurance is an admission that material things are expendable and can be replaced with another one of the same make and model. To be honest, I'm not sure I would be willing to kill someone over a Busa, even if it were miine and they were stealing it. I would kill someone for my country, or to protect life or my family, but for a piece of metal? It's hard to say what I would do at the moment if confronted by the situation; but sitting here rational I would not kill someone over a motorcycle.

You missed the gun / insurance analogy. What I meant was. Insurance, you dont think you will ever have to use it, you hope you never need it but your glad you had it when you needed it, as life insurance is to help others. Just as a gun, you hope you never have to use it or need it and it could help your loved ones when in need. Even more so when it comes to a firearm as insurance its even more important then any other insurance since money cant equal any value of a human life, which cant be replaced. Thats how I view my weapon, its my insurance.
If your traveling on the road, staying in hotels out of town is when I make sure I have my protection.
If you feel only crimes happen in bad areas and your pretty safe on decent areas turn on the news and watch the latest story. Trust is earned not given.

Lets just wipe the whole thing out about shooting someone over a Hayabusa or any other materail object, dont want to get this topic twisted.
 
Man, what an issue! Marines, LA County Harbor Patrol, LA County rescue dive team, US Coast Guard, LA County Sheriff's Dept. and now as 50 state carry id (retired peace officer). I've always had a piece. AND I'm very liberal...weird huh. I just have a hard time making it OK for Crips, Bloods, 18th St., neo-nazis, all the "crews and cliques" of our Country to legally walk in the 7-11 behind me with twin Glock 40's hanging low and on display. (many would be surprised how many DON'T have official criminal records to prohibit it). This is one of those, "I sure hope you see and agree with this problem I raise" posts!
Right now I kinda fall into the CC group with performance qualifications standards required (just like my retired peace officer federal law...if I have to demonstrate capability/proficiency given my background, shouldn't everybody?). And one more thing, cops and emergency responders really know this one....one out of every six persons at any given time is either intoxicated or mentally ill....where does that fit in? "I'm takin that shiny machine gun to Disneyland".

Dang Doyle, this means there are five guys on your block that is sober and sane! :rofl:

You ask for that one buddy! :laugh:
 
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