Frank Adams 1430 update
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OB_Dirty Pete
Registered
Other than part numbers and torque settings, there is no such thing as "correct information" in the world of high performance tuning.
If engineering, fabricating and wrenching were exact sciences, then everyone would be able to achieve perfectly predictable, consistent results on every project they tackled and guys like Muzzy, Erion, Dale Walker, Kanemoto, HRC and Orient Express would be out of jobs.
Also, you don't need to be a wrench yourself to succeed with a multi-dimensional tuning project. It fact it can work against you because no single mechanic with the probable exception of John Britten can do it all and do it well.
Beyond minor shade tree wrenching, you are much more likely to succeed if you are a good conceptualizer and an organizer with a vision.
With a broad general understanding of systems interactions and some creativity, you can "see" the finished product you want, then choose specialists wisely, making sure their finished sub-assemblies fit together for a balanced end result.
On a personal note, I would rather listen to the advice of a visionary experimental project manager than a grease monkey any day.
[This message has been edited by Dirty Pete (edited 30 November 1999).]
If engineering, fabricating and wrenching were exact sciences, then everyone would be able to achieve perfectly predictable, consistent results on every project they tackled and guys like Muzzy, Erion, Dale Walker, Kanemoto, HRC and Orient Express would be out of jobs.
Also, you don't need to be a wrench yourself to succeed with a multi-dimensional tuning project. It fact it can work against you because no single mechanic with the probable exception of John Britten can do it all and do it well.
Beyond minor shade tree wrenching, you are much more likely to succeed if you are a good conceptualizer and an organizer with a vision.
With a broad general understanding of systems interactions and some creativity, you can "see" the finished product you want, then choose specialists wisely, making sure their finished sub-assemblies fit together for a balanced end result.
On a personal note, I would rather listen to the advice of a visionary experimental project manager than a grease monkey any day.
[This message has been edited by Dirty Pete (edited 30 November 1999).]
OB_Brock Davidson
Registered
If I confused anyone, I was refering to Jamie as the punk.
I like Frank.
Anyone who races eventually realizes that experience is nothing more than knowledge gained as the result of failures. Frank is helping others understand how to succeed by not duplicating his mistakes. A lesser man would simply wait for others to falter, then gloat.
Brock
(But Frank, If you believe that sales pitch about the Lectrons,I have some oceanfront property I would like to sell you....here in Ohio!)
I like Frank.
Anyone who races eventually realizes that experience is nothing more than knowledge gained as the result of failures. Frank is helping others understand how to succeed by not duplicating his mistakes. A lesser man would simply wait for others to falter, then gloat.
Brock
(But Frank, If you believe that sales pitch about the Lectrons,I have some oceanfront property I would like to sell you....here in Ohio!)
Frank Adams
Registered
here ya go kong.....
i believe the out of roundness was
do to the cylinder walls being to
thin.
just not enough material there after
a 4mm bore.
Pistons: JE...
there was absolutely no problems there!
i believe the out of roundness was
do to the cylinder walls being to
thin.
just not enough material there after
a 4mm bore.
Pistons: JE...
there was absolutely no problems there!
Frank Adams
Registered
That E-E "Lectron" info came from
Mr. Fast by Gast himself...
it made me stop and think...
he did run a 8.70? something on
his $17,995 Busa!!
Mr. Fast by Gast himself...
it made me stop and think...
he did run a 8.70? something on
his $17,995 Busa!!
OB_KawAbuser
Registered
Jamie, I doubt that Frank will concern himself with the spelling bee, agreed they were sold as Lectrons way back when they were introduced on Penton's (KTM's painted green in the 70's). A spell checker would not pick up a tradename either, perhaps what you see Frank splell is his local dialect. You are the first to complain about Franks spelling, for the most part I thing we gain more from his shared experiances than his spelling.
Damn I tried to order a set of *Electrons* and they laughed at me, no I bet the sales person would take your money and substitute the *Lectrons*. Ya think?
No you should not take things from this site or any *other* as gospel. You either learn on your own by dealing with mfg's yourself or you entrust (performance shop) others to do the work you can not. The Hayabusa brought a new motor to the shops who have been workng on carburated motors for the most part, the EFI is a new departure for a lot of them.
The new Kawasaki will be in the same boat as far as that is concerned as well, The two bikes are common to that, being big bore efi motors. It's like finding a Dyno shop with a gas analyzer (still have not found one in my area).
Drag racing seems to extract more ego than touring, so the occasional clashes are just natural in this environment.
What are the real Suzuki riders, how do you define that?
I know about what you mean about the BS spread around here, I remember some one with the secret video that never materialized. One of those experts at work on that one, Marty offered the $$$, and still no video. Yeah you are the authority of correct information, thanks for your efforts.
Frank get off his chest, he's complaining again!
[This message has been edited by KawAbuser (edited 30 November 1999).]
Damn I tried to order a set of *Electrons* and they laughed at me, no I bet the sales person would take your money and substitute the *Lectrons*. Ya think?
No you should not take things from this site or any *other* as gospel. You either learn on your own by dealing with mfg's yourself or you entrust (performance shop) others to do the work you can not. The Hayabusa brought a new motor to the shops who have been workng on carburated motors for the most part, the EFI is a new departure for a lot of them.
The new Kawasaki will be in the same boat as far as that is concerned as well, The two bikes are common to that, being big bore efi motors. It's like finding a Dyno shop with a gas analyzer (still have not found one in my area).
Drag racing seems to extract more ego than touring, so the occasional clashes are just natural in this environment.
What are the real Suzuki riders, how do you define that?
I know about what you mean about the BS spread around here, I remember some one with the secret video that never materialized. One of those experts at work on that one, Marty offered the $$$, and still no video. Yeah you are the authority of correct information, thanks for your efforts.
Frank get off his chest, he's complaining again!
[This message has been edited by KawAbuser (edited 30 November 1999).]
OB_Brock Davidson
Registered
Kong,
Pro Stock Hayabusa engines are already under construction.
You won't see any the first of the year, because they must make at least 330 hp at the crank to be competitive.It will take some time to develop the proper components.
The new NHRA rule book allows for 1430cc for 1994 or newer engines in the class for 2000. The old rules (1150 based)only allowed for 1290cc's.
The Hayabusa engine is the way to go for big power in the future, everyone in the prostock/dragrace world knows it. The big question is who will spend the development money first.
I am currently investigating the possibility of a Hayabusa Unlimited Shootout program for next year.
There are many details to iron out, I'll keep you guys posted.
Brock
ps. If all goes REALLY well, the entire project could be documented/published from begining to end. From the crate, to National level machine competing on the AMA/Prostar,N.M.C.A.(National Muscle Car Association...they have 6 shootout races in 2000)and I.D.B.A tours.
Pro Stock Hayabusa engines are already under construction.
You won't see any the first of the year, because they must make at least 330 hp at the crank to be competitive.It will take some time to develop the proper components.
The new NHRA rule book allows for 1430cc for 1994 or newer engines in the class for 2000. The old rules (1150 based)only allowed for 1290cc's.
The Hayabusa engine is the way to go for big power in the future, everyone in the prostock/dragrace world knows it. The big question is who will spend the development money first.
I am currently investigating the possibility of a Hayabusa Unlimited Shootout program for next year.
There are many details to iron out, I'll keep you guys posted.
Brock
ps. If all goes REALLY well, the entire project could be documented/published from begining to end. From the crate, to National level machine competing on the AMA/Prostar,N.M.C.A.(National Muscle Car Association...they have 6 shootout races in 2000)and I.D.B.A tours.
OB_Wronglane
Registered
Cbxchris,
"Just keep your eyes wide open there are many pretenders and people that only want to take your hard earned money."
Good advice Chris. I too learned the hard way.In a previous post,you apologized to me which was not necessary as I did not take offense to your comments.It's ok to disagree with someone when done in a mature manner(which you show).It is not ok and I find it offensive when members resort to name calling.
Jamie>>>>>I see you understand motors and know where the power is made ....the head.Thanks for all the Einstein numbers(lol).If the production zx-12 proves to make more power than the busa,Kawasaki,clearly has the better flowing head.If it were 1300 cc's, it would be even quicker.I guess 90% of people think that a bigger motor will always be faster or make more power.How wrong they are!
Jamie,I think that Frank thinks you and I are the same person.I wonder who he thinks we are.I am not poking fun at you Frank,I am curious as a cat. I respect what you are doing with your bike and truly appreciate the info you are sharing with us.Soooooo,WHO ARE WE?????!!!!!
Thanks
"Just keep your eyes wide open there are many pretenders and people that only want to take your hard earned money."
Good advice Chris. I too learned the hard way.In a previous post,you apologized to me which was not necessary as I did not take offense to your comments.It's ok to disagree with someone when done in a mature manner(which you show).It is not ok and I find it offensive when members resort to name calling.
Jamie>>>>>I see you understand motors and know where the power is made ....the head.Thanks for all the Einstein numbers(lol).If the production zx-12 proves to make more power than the busa,Kawasaki,clearly has the better flowing head.If it were 1300 cc's, it would be even quicker.I guess 90% of people think that a bigger motor will always be faster or make more power.How wrong they are!
Jamie,I think that Frank thinks you and I are the same person.I wonder who he thinks we are.I am not poking fun at you Frank,I am curious as a cat. I respect what you are doing with your bike and truly appreciate the info you are sharing with us.Soooooo,WHO ARE WE?????!!!!!
Thanks
OB_Wronglane
Registered
Kong and BrainO,
Stop! You guys are to funny.
Stop! You guys are to funny.
Read my post again. It was a warning to all the little guys, because like CBX said, we were all little guys once. If you read the post and see it as bellyaching then read the part about, "if this pisses you off....."
Super Poster Pete,
As like all of your posts, they are well put together and they sound really authoritative but they contain little or no useful information. If you think tuners come straight out of college and they didn't start out as grease monkeys you're wrong. Experience is the best teacher, books will only get you so far, that's why doctors (and other pros) have internships. Pete, your posts rub me the wrong way. You put enough vague information into your comments to make it sound like you know what you are talking about, but the more you type the clearer it is that you aren't an authority on anything except talking through your hat. How does that Metallica song go? "They say the empty can rattles the most, the sound of your own voice must soothe you." If you'd listened to the advice of a visionary experimental project manager named Frank you'd be out a few grand by now. H*ll Frank himself has pointed out that you live here. If you'd post lest often you might sound more respectable.
Kawabuser,
Can you make custom gears? If so I might have an order for you.
Yeah you're right, I did know what he was talking about, but it's like talking to someone who mispronounces words or uses them in the wrong context, they sound less intelligent to everyone hears them say it. I've seen quite a few people call them Electrons and each time I do I want to correct them, but I don't. Since Frank wants to play the role of hero here, he opens himself up to criticism. I'd bet the guy at the speed shop who gets that phone call for a set of Elections puts his hand over the receiver and says "psst, hey Phil, another set of Electrons, ha ha, must be a scientist." This is the world wide web, the entire planet can read this, it might as well be printed in big letters on the moon, if you can't be accurate or correct, then don't embarrass yourself in front of the entire human race.
The Suzuki riders, at least to me, are the guys who have Turbo GSXRs and preface a response with, "well on my old Suzuki." The info I read from them is mostly correct, if not always correct. They are helpful and valuable to this site. Then the flavor of the week guys who tell us something like, " well I've had a ZX10, then a ZX11, then a CBRXX, then I got my 1300R." and I can finish their post with, "and as soon as the ZX12 comes out I'll sell my Busa and get one of those because I have an inferiority complex."
Frank has posted in the past that he's looked at the specs and doesn't see a problem making more power than a ZX12 modification for modification. Like I've said in the past, I do own a Kawasaki ZX11 but I am not a brand loyal owner. As a side note, I like engines with potential more than maxed out engines. Back on the subject, when I look at the specs I look at more than total CCs. I see bore and stroke too and from what I see a big stroke (63mm) Busa engine spun up to a red line of (I don't know what it is exactly but I guessed) 11,000rpm has a piston speed of 693,000. If you divide that number by the stroke of a ZX12 (55.4mm) you get a "red line" where the piston speeds of the two engines are the same at 12,509rpm. Ok, now, if I haven't lost you, multiply the 11K by 1298 for the Busa and get 14,278,000. This would be the volume of air the 1298 is pumping at 11K given a 100% efficiency. If you do the same for the ZX12 you'll get 1198 by 12,509rpm or 14,958,782 or 4.5% better than a Busa. This equation takes a few numbers for granted like a 100% air flow head and the red line of the ZX12. I don't know the actual numbers. I do know that a '99 ZX9 head flows much better than a ZX11 head. So that would mean that Kawasaki does know how to make their heads progressively better through the years. I've never read what the red line of the ZX12 might be. The numbers I gave are "racing numbers," the relationship between the Busa's bore and stroke vs. the ZX12's will always be the same, unless it changes in later years. What that means is if my red line for the Busa was wrong and it doesn't red till 11.5k, the equation still works in the 12's favor because of it's over square bore and stroke figures. To simplify this, yes the Busa is a bigger apple than a ZX12 but since the ZX12 doesn't have the same stroke as a Busa it isn't an apple, its an orange and the CC comparison just doesn't actually compare the potential of the two engines. Apples to oranges, the oranges seem to have it this time.
Next year who knows?
Super Poster Pete,
As like all of your posts, they are well put together and they sound really authoritative but they contain little or no useful information. If you think tuners come straight out of college and they didn't start out as grease monkeys you're wrong. Experience is the best teacher, books will only get you so far, that's why doctors (and other pros) have internships. Pete, your posts rub me the wrong way. You put enough vague information into your comments to make it sound like you know what you are talking about, but the more you type the clearer it is that you aren't an authority on anything except talking through your hat. How does that Metallica song go? "They say the empty can rattles the most, the sound of your own voice must soothe you." If you'd listened to the advice of a visionary experimental project manager named Frank you'd be out a few grand by now. H*ll Frank himself has pointed out that you live here. If you'd post lest often you might sound more respectable.
Kawabuser,
Can you make custom gears? If so I might have an order for you.
Yeah you're right, I did know what he was talking about, but it's like talking to someone who mispronounces words or uses them in the wrong context, they sound less intelligent to everyone hears them say it. I've seen quite a few people call them Electrons and each time I do I want to correct them, but I don't. Since Frank wants to play the role of hero here, he opens himself up to criticism. I'd bet the guy at the speed shop who gets that phone call for a set of Elections puts his hand over the receiver and says "psst, hey Phil, another set of Electrons, ha ha, must be a scientist." This is the world wide web, the entire planet can read this, it might as well be printed in big letters on the moon, if you can't be accurate or correct, then don't embarrass yourself in front of the entire human race.
The Suzuki riders, at least to me, are the guys who have Turbo GSXRs and preface a response with, "well on my old Suzuki." The info I read from them is mostly correct, if not always correct. They are helpful and valuable to this site. Then the flavor of the week guys who tell us something like, " well I've had a ZX10, then a ZX11, then a CBRXX, then I got my 1300R." and I can finish their post with, "and as soon as the ZX12 comes out I'll sell my Busa and get one of those because I have an inferiority complex."
Frank has posted in the past that he's looked at the specs and doesn't see a problem making more power than a ZX12 modification for modification. Like I've said in the past, I do own a Kawasaki ZX11 but I am not a brand loyal owner. As a side note, I like engines with potential more than maxed out engines. Back on the subject, when I look at the specs I look at more than total CCs. I see bore and stroke too and from what I see a big stroke (63mm) Busa engine spun up to a red line of (I don't know what it is exactly but I guessed) 11,000rpm has a piston speed of 693,000. If you divide that number by the stroke of a ZX12 (55.4mm) you get a "red line" where the piston speeds of the two engines are the same at 12,509rpm. Ok, now, if I haven't lost you, multiply the 11K by 1298 for the Busa and get 14,278,000. This would be the volume of air the 1298 is pumping at 11K given a 100% efficiency. If you do the same for the ZX12 you'll get 1198 by 12,509rpm or 14,958,782 or 4.5% better than a Busa. This equation takes a few numbers for granted like a 100% air flow head and the red line of the ZX12. I don't know the actual numbers. I do know that a '99 ZX9 head flows much better than a ZX11 head. So that would mean that Kawasaki does know how to make their heads progressively better through the years. I've never read what the red line of the ZX12 might be. The numbers I gave are "racing numbers," the relationship between the Busa's bore and stroke vs. the ZX12's will always be the same, unless it changes in later years. What that means is if my red line for the Busa was wrong and it doesn't red till 11.5k, the equation still works in the 12's favor because of it's over square bore and stroke figures. To simplify this, yes the Busa is a bigger apple than a ZX12 but since the ZX12 doesn't have the same stroke as a Busa it isn't an apple, its an orange and the CC comparison just doesn't actually compare the potential of the two engines. Apples to oranges, the oranges seem to have it this time.
Next year who knows?
OB_KawAbuser
Registered
Jamie, yes I can produce the gears. A member is sending me a broken starter and the gears so I can see if there is an available solution to the problems associated by the raised compression.
You can email me at Hemillard@snet.net
A lot of my friends own machine shops and some of them specialize in certain procedures (gears). There is a large aero space industry in Connecticut, certainly capable of making some special motorcycle parts.
Jamie honestly if you are interested send me an email.
You can email me at Hemillard@snet.net
A lot of my friends own machine shops and some of them specialize in certain procedures (gears). There is a large aero space industry in Connecticut, certainly capable of making some special motorcycle parts.
Jamie honestly if you are interested send me an email.
Frank are you actually turning the wrenches here or are you paying someone else to?
BTW, the next time you talk to Paul Gast get him to tell you the name of his carb for you. It's LECTRON, you make yourself sound silly calling it anything else.
On a personal note here everyone, there are quite a few people on this site (and other places on the net) that type out their posts like they are the authority, filling everyone's head with the wrong information so that you will look like an idiot when you try to rap with someone in the know. Please fellas take everything you read with a grain of salt. I don't claim to know it all. Most of you know I don't own a Busa or care to. But as far as engines go I do turn my own wrenches and I do know my as* from a hole in the ground. If I don't know something I'll admit to it unlike a certain super poster (er poser) who adds his vague ignorance to everyone else's posts, a leach himself.
The purpose of this post isn't to inflame but to warn the people who come here looking for answers. Make that looking for correct answers.
My advise is to look for answers on Dragbike.com and then come here looking for a good laugh. I think that the actual hard core Suzuki guys are posting a higher percentage of correct answers than the bike of the week owners are.
In closing I'll say these two things.
#1 There is accurate info on this site, it's the sifting through the ignorance that is frustrating. To the guys who in the know, keep it up and thanks, you know who you are. To the guys who don't know, please, STOP.
#2 A prediction, Frank's gonna be irate. Everything is a conspiracy with him. He'll post a challenge to meet for a fist fight or a drag race as he's done many times in the past. This post applies to many "experts" here not just you. If you find yourself getting upset it's because you know I'm right. If you are chuckling to yourself and muttering, "it's about time," then you're my kind of guy.
There I feel much better now, I had to get that off mt chest.
BTW, the next time you talk to Paul Gast get him to tell you the name of his carb for you. It's LECTRON, you make yourself sound silly calling it anything else.
On a personal note here everyone, there are quite a few people on this site (and other places on the net) that type out their posts like they are the authority, filling everyone's head with the wrong information so that you will look like an idiot when you try to rap with someone in the know. Please fellas take everything you read with a grain of salt. I don't claim to know it all. Most of you know I don't own a Busa or care to. But as far as engines go I do turn my own wrenches and I do know my as* from a hole in the ground. If I don't know something I'll admit to it unlike a certain super poster (er poser) who adds his vague ignorance to everyone else's posts, a leach himself.
The purpose of this post isn't to inflame but to warn the people who come here looking for answers. Make that looking for correct answers.
My advise is to look for answers on Dragbike.com and then come here looking for a good laugh. I think that the actual hard core Suzuki guys are posting a higher percentage of correct answers than the bike of the week owners are.
In closing I'll say these two things.
#1 There is accurate info on this site, it's the sifting through the ignorance that is frustrating. To the guys who in the know, keep it up and thanks, you know who you are. To the guys who don't know, please, STOP.
#2 A prediction, Frank's gonna be irate. Everything is a conspiracy with him. He'll post a challenge to meet for a fist fight or a drag race as he's done many times in the past. This post applies to many "experts" here not just you. If you find yourself getting upset it's because you know I'm right. If you are chuckling to yourself and muttering, "it's about time," then you're my kind of guy.
There I feel much better now, I had to get that off mt chest.
Couple of quick ones
I don't correct every one cause:
A It's not my job
B some times (ok lots of times) I don't know when guys are wrong
C some one else usually does
D I have better things to do
Jamie
I have no beef with anyone here. I get into some debates now and again, but they're always in fun. As far as engine dynamics, theory, quantum physics, and bra sizes of super models, there is no end to it. Don't take this stuff so seriously.
As far as Brock getting caught cheating, those things happen to every one. If he did get caught, which I have no idea if he did, He's probably bummed a little, sorry, embarrassed too. He's still one of the top guys' in the sport. They all cheat. That's what rules are for. I will still consider his posts as very informative. He knows a lot more than I do about motorcycles, which is why I read this board.
I don't owe any loyalty to anyone that would require me not to comment on a subject. The "posse" can chase me down for anything they want. They don't because I don't give them much to chase. I've been corrected, chewed up, spit out, etc. That's fine, I like to be corrected if I'm wrong!
I don't correct every one cause:
A It's not my job
B some times (ok lots of times) I don't know when guys are wrong
C some one else usually does
D I have better things to do
Jamie
I have no beef with anyone here. I get into some debates now and again, but they're always in fun. As far as engine dynamics, theory, quantum physics, and bra sizes of super models, there is no end to it. Don't take this stuff so seriously.
As far as Brock getting caught cheating, those things happen to every one. If he did get caught, which I have no idea if he did, He's probably bummed a little, sorry, embarrassed too. He's still one of the top guys' in the sport. They all cheat. That's what rules are for. I will still consider his posts as very informative. He knows a lot more than I do about motorcycles, which is why I read this board.
I don't owe any loyalty to anyone that would require me not to comment on a subject. The "posse" can chase me down for anything they want. They don't because I don't give them much to chase. I've been corrected, chewed up, spit out, etc. That's fine, I like to be corrected if I'm wrong!
*Warning!, this post carries the standard Hayabusa.org disclaimer. In no way should it be considered correct or accurate. It is meant solely for entertainment purposes. In no way is it intended to flame, debase, enrage, pis.s off, or other wise promote the logical thought process.
Ninjaknight
Please explain to me what Jamie proved with his math?
The theory of volumetric efficiency?
How piston speed relates to power?
Telling DP to shut up is nothing new. Watch this,
HEY DP SHUT THE HELL UP! YOU SPEND TOO MUCH TIME HERE!
Any one feel better about that?
Do you think DP's pis.sed off? He's probably laughing his as.s off if he's not polishing off a case of Jim beam. I have never seen him claim to be an authority on any thing. But the guy has lots of the experience that Jamie talked about in the grease monkey bit. Yes his posts are often vague. I suspect he's trying to provoke thought and intellectual response. If you always just give out the answers, no one has to think for them selves.
Jamie's take on piston speed assumes both engines have the same rod length, and deck height. Piston speed (my opinion) has nothing to do with engine RPMS. What it does mean to me is how the piston interacts with the rest of the engine (ignition timing, port speed, cylinder scavenging, etc). If you measure piston speed by RPM, how do you account for the piston coming to a complete stop at the top and bottom of each stroke? Wouldn't that drastically affect your calculation? Or do you just measure speed when it's at it highest momentary velocity? Does rod length make any difference in this equation? Or is closing speed and dwell, not important?
Jamie, are you using 100% VE as the basis for your red line theory? What is the consensus for stock power? If we use 158 hp as the "stock" power, a 1300cc engine has about 202.56%VE (please feel free to correct this).
There are too many unaccounted for variables here. Until the ZX-12 is released, every thing is conjecture. If you guys' what to talk about these motors, that's great. If you're smart, you can get your point across with out the name-calling. If you don't have the facts on your side, Then call every one who disagrees with you names. If you do resort to name calling, expect it back.
What Frank stated was his opinion. What (Jamie) stated was his opinion.
Every one is entitled to their opinion.
Calling someone stupid, or trying to discredit him or her to prove your point, serves no purpose. All the threats and name calling are really pointless, because no one can back up any of it.
If indeed Frank Adams is telling every one on the net how great he is, so what? How does that affect any of us? No one came up to me today and said, " Frank Adams is the greatest guy in the world." And if they did, I say something like Oh, I don't know the guy personally. I'm glad you do. He must be a good friend of yours for you to speak so highly of him.
Jamie, I'm not going after you for your technical observations or your opinions about engines. I just do not see the point of your making personal attacks. That's all. And before you say "they all did it back", that doesn't matter to me at all.
sorry for the long post.
Ninjaknight
Please explain to me what Jamie proved with his math?
The theory of volumetric efficiency?
How piston speed relates to power?
Telling DP to shut up is nothing new. Watch this,
HEY DP SHUT THE HELL UP! YOU SPEND TOO MUCH TIME HERE!
Any one feel better about that?
Do you think DP's pis.sed off? He's probably laughing his as.s off if he's not polishing off a case of Jim beam. I have never seen him claim to be an authority on any thing. But the guy has lots of the experience that Jamie talked about in the grease monkey bit. Yes his posts are often vague. I suspect he's trying to provoke thought and intellectual response. If you always just give out the answers, no one has to think for them selves.
Jamie's take on piston speed assumes both engines have the same rod length, and deck height. Piston speed (my opinion) has nothing to do with engine RPMS. What it does mean to me is how the piston interacts with the rest of the engine (ignition timing, port speed, cylinder scavenging, etc). If you measure piston speed by RPM, how do you account for the piston coming to a complete stop at the top and bottom of each stroke? Wouldn't that drastically affect your calculation? Or do you just measure speed when it's at it highest momentary velocity? Does rod length make any difference in this equation? Or is closing speed and dwell, not important?
Jamie, are you using 100% VE as the basis for your red line theory? What is the consensus for stock power? If we use 158 hp as the "stock" power, a 1300cc engine has about 202.56%VE (please feel free to correct this).
There are too many unaccounted for variables here. Until the ZX-12 is released, every thing is conjecture. If you guys' what to talk about these motors, that's great. If you're smart, you can get your point across with out the name-calling. If you don't have the facts on your side, Then call every one who disagrees with you names. If you do resort to name calling, expect it back.
What Frank stated was his opinion. What (Jamie) stated was his opinion.
Every one is entitled to their opinion.
Calling someone stupid, or trying to discredit him or her to prove your point, serves no purpose. All the threats and name calling are really pointless, because no one can back up any of it.
If indeed Frank Adams is telling every one on the net how great he is, so what? How does that affect any of us? No one came up to me today and said, " Frank Adams is the greatest guy in the world." And if they did, I say something like Oh, I don't know the guy personally. I'm glad you do. He must be a good friend of yours for you to speak so highly of him.
Jamie, I'm not going after you for your technical observations or your opinions about engines. I just do not see the point of your making personal attacks. That's all. And before you say "they all did it back", that doesn't matter to me at all.
sorry for the long post.
OB_Brock Davidson
Registered
Jamie,
F.Y.I........
It is correct that I withdrew from competition at a race this year and was disqualified. I knew I was guilty of having old parts in my 600 because I broke my new parts.(Stupid rule!) Instead of trying to lie, I confessed and took my punishment like a MAN.
Other 600 racers to be disqualified for violations this year were:
Keith Dennis for engine mods, and Chip Ellis for ground clearance.
Cheaters? Liars?
Not hardly, damn good racers and national record holders.
But you wouldn't know anything about that would you? Poser.
Brock
ps. Thanks for proving you are a punk.(again)
F.Y.I........
It is correct that I withdrew from competition at a race this year and was disqualified. I knew I was guilty of having old parts in my 600 because I broke my new parts.(Stupid rule!) Instead of trying to lie, I confessed and took my punishment like a MAN.
Other 600 racers to be disqualified for violations this year were:
Keith Dennis for engine mods, and Chip Ellis for ground clearance.
Cheaters? Liars?
Not hardly, damn good racers and national record holders.
But you wouldn't know anything about that would you? Poser.
Brock
ps. Thanks for proving you are a punk.(again)
Maui,
OK, you've coaxed one more post out of me on this topic. Yes, I think I did piss Pete off, I don't know why you don't think I did. I think he desperately wants acceptance from someone that's why he's always trying to provoke a conversation about anything he can.
The purpose of my math lesson wasn't to prove beyond a doubt that the ZX12 will be better than a Busa. I was hoping to get you all thinking about things other than just total CCs. Frank and others have continually posted here and other places that the 1200 won't be comparable to the 1300 because of it's lack of 100cc. I just wanted to point out that the stroke length will dictate that maximum piston speeds and thus power output. I said it wasn't perfect. It was just a baseline observation. There are, off the top of my head, three ways to increase an engines output. First would be making it breathe better through the use of a good/no filter, better/no airbox, bigger (or smooth bore) carbs/throttle bodies, ported head, bigger valves, better cams and a pipe. Second would be to make it bigger with a bigger bore and a bigger stroke. Third would be to spin the engine faster. Admittedly the 1300 is a larger engine than the 1200 but the 1200's short stroke means that the lack of 100cc can be made up with rpm.
Let's build two hypothetical engines a long stroke 1300 and a short stroke 1300. The long stroke engine will make it's power peak at a lower rpm and the short stroke engine will rev higher and have the ability to make more peak power but at a higher rpm. The ZX12 I think I read somewhere has short rods. This should make it peaky and harder on it's bores because it accelerates the piston faster. That and the big throttle bodies should make it an on/off engine but the beauty of FI is that it you can make those wild characteristics usable. A short stroke 1300cc ZX/Busa would be better.
I agree Maui, there are many, many more factors in an engines output, internal friction, combustion chamber design, cam profiles, weight of internal parts, etc. The huge bore of the ZX12 works against it. Higher compression can be run in a smaller bore engine on normal gasoline than a bigger bore. The huge ports, valves and cams needed to flow the required air to make big power at high rpm will kill your torque at low engines speeds.
Everyone look at how intellectually weak Pete is, the best insult he can come up with is "gay." Pete the rules I was taught about debates said something about the fist person to use a homosexual or racial slur is the loser.
Check out Pete he said something that he actually meant but Brock and the rest of the informed took it as sarcasm. Pete a few months ago Brock was caught cheating, that would make him dishonest. BTW, John Britten died a while back, you made reference to him a few posts back.
Frank who do you think I am, you never said? If Paul actually did say Electron to you on the phone it's because he didn't want to lose your sale by making you feel like a fool by correcting you.
Brock what's wrong with you? Small penis? Where'd that come from? I never said anything bad about Suzuki riders, read your buddy Frank's comment about reading entire posts. But since you're here, how's your ego doin'? I see over on Dragbike you got burnt to a crisp and then you were suddenly courteous again. The last post of yours I read over there you were licking some serious boot. I guess you picked yourself up off the ground. Crawl back under your rock. Anyone who has to cheat to win isn't worth my time. I feel dirty just talking to you. Like you said in one of your first articles in MP, "I tell it like it is, if you don't like what I have to say, tuff, that's how I am."
I didn't start any of this to inflame or stir sh*t as you put it Kaw. I just wanted to point out that a few of the ideas/facts that are put up on this page aren't always right. There are quite a few people who manage to find their way to this site. Just because they can't post here doesn't mean that they aren't watching. I think that since we hardly ever see a screen name we don't recognize we fall into the mentality that we're the only ones here. Like the commercial says "Don't get E-screwed." Maui, from what I've read from you so far, I know that you are smart enough to identify the incorrect information that is posted. I assume you don't point it out because of either some sort of loyalty to your fellow Busa owners or a fear of the wrath of the .org posse. :-)
I really don't have any ill feeling towards anyone here except for Brock. If Frank wants to pretend to build his own engines, it's his right. If Pete wants to live here and over-post every topic it's his right too. If anyone wants to disagree with me, DO IT. Welcome to the free world. I'm not always right, I never said I was. If you're gonna disagree with me at least try to disagree because of a real fact and not because of some predisposition or brand loyalty or some need to follow your hero.
Sorry if all of this is hard to follow, I was trying to respond to as much of everyone's stuff as possible. After rereading your posts I had to add pieces to your sections to answer you back.
One last prediction, Pete will call me a liar for posting again on this thread after I said I wouldn't. Maui made me do it.
One last thing (I know, I'm sorry) let's assume that Rickey's ZX12 was split open to do more than check the bearing clearances. The perpose of a preproduction anything is to test the parts before they are built in mass quantitys. You'd build a pre-bike, kick the snot out of it, if it broke you'd beef up the broken pieces and retest it. Why would Kawasaki let Rickey soup up his engine internally? That would make their testing of the pre-bike useless. The only thing it would serve is to make a one off bike that could run the quarter quicker than a stocker. Why would they do that, to hype their own bike? As soon as that bike comes out it will be on the cover of every street motorcycle magazine that is printed. It will be tested by all the magazines and if they can't get their bikes to run 9.5s they'll all scream foul. I personally think the bike is stock, if Kawasaki was supporting the modification of their pre-bike why did the check engine light come on when the Muzzy pipe was added? Don't you think Kawasaki would have made them a black box that could handle the pipe?
These are my thoughts on the topic what are yours?
OK, you've coaxed one more post out of me on this topic. Yes, I think I did piss Pete off, I don't know why you don't think I did. I think he desperately wants acceptance from someone that's why he's always trying to provoke a conversation about anything he can.
The purpose of my math lesson wasn't to prove beyond a doubt that the ZX12 will be better than a Busa. I was hoping to get you all thinking about things other than just total CCs. Frank and others have continually posted here and other places that the 1200 won't be comparable to the 1300 because of it's lack of 100cc. I just wanted to point out that the stroke length will dictate that maximum piston speeds and thus power output. I said it wasn't perfect. It was just a baseline observation. There are, off the top of my head, three ways to increase an engines output. First would be making it breathe better through the use of a good/no filter, better/no airbox, bigger (or smooth bore) carbs/throttle bodies, ported head, bigger valves, better cams and a pipe. Second would be to make it bigger with a bigger bore and a bigger stroke. Third would be to spin the engine faster. Admittedly the 1300 is a larger engine than the 1200 but the 1200's short stroke means that the lack of 100cc can be made up with rpm.
Let's build two hypothetical engines a long stroke 1300 and a short stroke 1300. The long stroke engine will make it's power peak at a lower rpm and the short stroke engine will rev higher and have the ability to make more peak power but at a higher rpm. The ZX12 I think I read somewhere has short rods. This should make it peaky and harder on it's bores because it accelerates the piston faster. That and the big throttle bodies should make it an on/off engine but the beauty of FI is that it you can make those wild characteristics usable. A short stroke 1300cc ZX/Busa would be better.
I agree Maui, there are many, many more factors in an engines output, internal friction, combustion chamber design, cam profiles, weight of internal parts, etc. The huge bore of the ZX12 works against it. Higher compression can be run in a smaller bore engine on normal gasoline than a bigger bore. The huge ports, valves and cams needed to flow the required air to make big power at high rpm will kill your torque at low engines speeds.
Everyone look at how intellectually weak Pete is, the best insult he can come up with is "gay." Pete the rules I was taught about debates said something about the fist person to use a homosexual or racial slur is the loser.
Check out Pete he said something that he actually meant but Brock and the rest of the informed took it as sarcasm. Pete a few months ago Brock was caught cheating, that would make him dishonest. BTW, John Britten died a while back, you made reference to him a few posts back.
Frank who do you think I am, you never said? If Paul actually did say Electron to you on the phone it's because he didn't want to lose your sale by making you feel like a fool by correcting you.
Brock what's wrong with you? Small penis? Where'd that come from? I never said anything bad about Suzuki riders, read your buddy Frank's comment about reading entire posts. But since you're here, how's your ego doin'? I see over on Dragbike you got burnt to a crisp and then you were suddenly courteous again. The last post of yours I read over there you were licking some serious boot. I guess you picked yourself up off the ground. Crawl back under your rock. Anyone who has to cheat to win isn't worth my time. I feel dirty just talking to you. Like you said in one of your first articles in MP, "I tell it like it is, if you don't like what I have to say, tuff, that's how I am."
I didn't start any of this to inflame or stir sh*t as you put it Kaw. I just wanted to point out that a few of the ideas/facts that are put up on this page aren't always right. There are quite a few people who manage to find their way to this site. Just because they can't post here doesn't mean that they aren't watching. I think that since we hardly ever see a screen name we don't recognize we fall into the mentality that we're the only ones here. Like the commercial says "Don't get E-screwed." Maui, from what I've read from you so far, I know that you are smart enough to identify the incorrect information that is posted. I assume you don't point it out because of either some sort of loyalty to your fellow Busa owners or a fear of the wrath of the .org posse. :-)
I really don't have any ill feeling towards anyone here except for Brock. If Frank wants to pretend to build his own engines, it's his right. If Pete wants to live here and over-post every topic it's his right too. If anyone wants to disagree with me, DO IT. Welcome to the free world. I'm not always right, I never said I was. If you're gonna disagree with me at least try to disagree because of a real fact and not because of some predisposition or brand loyalty or some need to follow your hero.
Sorry if all of this is hard to follow, I was trying to respond to as much of everyone's stuff as possible. After rereading your posts I had to add pieces to your sections to answer you back.
One last prediction, Pete will call me a liar for posting again on this thread after I said I wouldn't. Maui made me do it.
One last thing (I know, I'm sorry) let's assume that Rickey's ZX12 was split open to do more than check the bearing clearances. The perpose of a preproduction anything is to test the parts before they are built in mass quantitys. You'd build a pre-bike, kick the snot out of it, if it broke you'd beef up the broken pieces and retest it. Why would Kawasaki let Rickey soup up his engine internally? That would make their testing of the pre-bike useless. The only thing it would serve is to make a one off bike that could run the quarter quicker than a stocker. Why would they do that, to hype their own bike? As soon as that bike comes out it will be on the cover of every street motorcycle magazine that is printed. It will be tested by all the magazines and if they can't get their bikes to run 9.5s they'll all scream foul. I personally think the bike is stock, if Kawasaki was supporting the modification of their pre-bike why did the check engine light come on when the Muzzy pipe was added? Don't you think Kawasaki would have made them a black box that could handle the pipe?
These are my thoughts on the topic what are yours?
OB_Dirty Pete
Registered
RE BROCK'S "CHEATING:" This past season F1 Team Ferrari unintentionally broke an excruciatingly minor mechanical rule in Monza and Nurburgring this year and were "found out" and charged at Malaysia after the most brilliant drive Michael Schumacher has ever executed.
Was Ferrai "CHEATING?" Did they deserve disqualification, points loss or any other penalty?
The situation caused an uproar in FI and cost Ferrari a great deal of money. The entire racing community agrees that there was no intentional cheating involved. Ferrari pushed the tech rules to the limit with honest (there's the dreaded H word again) intentions like every serious competitor does, and some conservative members of the F1 ruling body said it was "cheating."
No one holds anything against Ferrari for this. That's racing. Happens all the time among the world's top competitors. Anyone who doesn't know that knows nothing about racing.
If I'm being too "vague" for for anyone I'll explain the Ferrari incident in engineering and legal language upon request, depending on who makes the request.
I post mainly about riding and racing experiences and about the nonsense inherent in being a motorcyclist. I see a lot of people posting ONLY about flow numbers and part numbers and NEVER about what they do on their bikes and how they feel in their gut about bikes. Then I see people like Sorehead posting about the sheer joy he gets from riding around in cold rainy Ireland on the Busa he loves.
Is SoreHead a "vague" kinda guy, too?
I can tear bikes apart and put them back together again and I've done it far too often to want to do it any more. At this point in my life I'm mainly interested in riding them.
I think there's room for both kinds of people here.
Was Ferrai "CHEATING?" Did they deserve disqualification, points loss or any other penalty?
The situation caused an uproar in FI and cost Ferrari a great deal of money. The entire racing community agrees that there was no intentional cheating involved. Ferrari pushed the tech rules to the limit with honest (there's the dreaded H word again) intentions like every serious competitor does, and some conservative members of the F1 ruling body said it was "cheating."
No one holds anything against Ferrari for this. That's racing. Happens all the time among the world's top competitors. Anyone who doesn't know that knows nothing about racing.
If I'm being too "vague" for for anyone I'll explain the Ferrari incident in engineering and legal language upon request, depending on who makes the request.
I post mainly about riding and racing experiences and about the nonsense inherent in being a motorcyclist. I see a lot of people posting ONLY about flow numbers and part numbers and NEVER about what they do on their bikes and how they feel in their gut about bikes. Then I see people like Sorehead posting about the sheer joy he gets from riding around in cold rainy Ireland on the Busa he loves.
Is SoreHead a "vague" kinda guy, too?
I can tear bikes apart and put them back together again and I've done it far too often to want to do it any more. At this point in my life I'm mainly interested in riding them.
I think there's room for both kinds of people here.
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